Revelation

stranger said:
But my worst wounding by far was my school days (happened before my church days). Having failed miserably there, I somehow wound up with a fear of smart people!
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How interesting! Coming from similar experiences, I ended up quite the opposite!

stranger said:
The scriptures are more alive, I am more alive.
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stranger said:
Study is good, but without at least a little revelation the learning has no life.
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Also very interesting, your experience of revelation in text is very similar to when I 'grok' the text I'm reading. It is in no way divine, but the pure intellectual satisfaction of your own understanding aligning, being confirmed and succinctly expressed by another.
 
Cino said:
But a text that speaks to someone might be dead to someone else?
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What Jung said:- "there is absolutely no truth that does not spell salvation to one person and damnation to another. All universalisms get stuck in this terrible dilemma."
 
stranger said:
I think revelation can go from obvious and overt to almost imperceptible. So I might study a text for a long while but it would have little meaning for me until it becomes "real" through revelation.
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Well, that's it, imo. It's something that happens to you, and then you find a scriptural text that says what you have just experienced, and it's: Bingo!
 
RJM Corbet said:
Well, that's it, imo. It's something that happens to you, and then you find a scriptural text that says what you have just experienced, and it's: Bingo!
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That's how it was for me coming up. I'd read a verse or 2 on my own, get little out of it, then dad would read the same verse with that spark of enthusiasm he always had and suddenly the whole thing came alive with meaning. Had a similar experience just recently at my son's wedding when NJ recited the Lord's Prayer before the ceremony. Man, hair on the back of me neck stood up and it was as if the words were playing out in my head! Good job the cam was locked down on the tripod or I'd have surely dropped it.
 
Cino said:
You describe revelation as occurring when each reader opens the text, not just when the prophet received the text through revelation?

Nice, I like that.

But a text that speaks to someone might be dead to someone else?
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Yes, that's it, or how I see it anyway. The original inspiration/revelation of the prophet is not automatically transmitted to the reader. So it could theoretically be dead to one or alive to another at any given time. Which is not to say alive means that persons fully "gets it", but that the text has now engaged a deeper part of the person, not just the intellect. The "true self" perhaps?
 
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RJM Corbet said:
Well, that's it, imo. It's something that happens to you, and then you find a scriptural text that says what you have just experienced, and it's: Bingo!
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I like that. Time and experience are definitely in there. Back in my fundamentalist days, it was all about substitution and working hard at sanctification. It took me a long time to see that union was there also. It was right there, I read over it hundreds of times, but my experience was just not there yet.
 
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A Cup Of Tea said:
How interesting! Coming from similar experiences, I ended up quite the opposite!



Also very interesting, your experience of revelation in text is very similar to when I 'grok' the text I'm reading. It is in no way divine, but the pure intellectual satisfaction of your own understanding aligning, being confirmed and succinctly expressed by another.
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Wow, Tea, I wouldn't have imagined you could have trouble in school. Your input here always seems timely and you ask great questions. But yes, it can be devastating to get hammered by life in those formative years. If you turned out with an opposite fear, then you probably should be very afraid of me! (kidding)

Yes, grokking... I see hardly any difference, just a different perspective. I'm not going to rule out the divine in your case just yet ;), but that is just my perspective.
 
muhammad_isa said:
No .. let's not :)
There are 1000's of examples like this that you could ask me to discuss if you so desired..
"Truth is distinct from falsehood"

.. If you are claiming Crowley's Qabalah is an authentic Divine revelation, I am then willing to discuss it with you.
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All right, then! Let's take that as an example.

What makes it an authentic divine revelation (or not)?

BTW, I like to distinguish between revelation and inspiration. The former is more like dictation or channeling, very little to no active conscious cognitive input from the person receiving it. The latter has a greater personal creative component of the inspired person to it. Which is more authentic, if that even makes sense?
 
CobblersApprentice said:
My quotes come from weakness. When first on forums I was hesitant, even timid, in offering opinions, so the quote of another (an authority figure!) was always handy. Now a little more courageous, I have retained the habit.

Speaking of quotes, another favorite, this from A A Milne, creator of Winnie the Pooh:-

"A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself, always a laborious business."

Well, be that as it may, I stumble on.

Another quote from Chuang Tzu (as translated by Thomas Merton) is another one that I often ponder upon, not really knowing what it is about.

When a hideous man becomes a father
And a son is born to him
In the middle of the night
He trembles and lights a lamp
And runs to look in anguish
On that child's face
To see whom he resembles

Being a Pure Lander of faith and no-calculation, I see these words as pointing to that attitude of mind that seeks attainment, seeking progress on the path, always looking for improvement, looking for the pass-mark that He Who Judges All will give.......or not! A life of constant introspection, of works, not faith/trust.

Maybe others will see another meaning entirely? But that, in part, is what this particular thread is about.

Speaking of Dogen, I have found "Eihei Dogen:Mystical Realist" by Hee-Jim Kim invaluable. Now on my second read through. But I have to read it slowly. For me, now, it inter-relates with much else.
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I'm reading The True Dharma Eye. I just started there because I read (either here or on wiki) that it is considered his major work. I skip around in the chapters, the most memorable to me so far being the one on hot and cold (can't remember the exact title). It was fascinating, I'd like to keep reading there. Not able to grasp anything at the moment, just a desire to keep reading.

I like your quotes above. The one from Chuang Tzu is very deep. I don't fully understand it either, but I think it does speak of a search for the true self. Considering himself hideous, the man is blinded to his true self and seeks a mirror to reveal it to him. That is my very incomplete take on it at the moment.

I'd like to continue the rest of this reply a little later, running out of time. Got a small job to do and a long drive to get there. :)
 
stranger said:
I'm reading The True Dharma Eye. I just started there because I read (either here or on wiki) that it is considered his major work. I skip around in the chapters, the most memorable to me so far being the one on hot and cold (can't remember the exact title). It was fascinating, I'd like to keep reading there. Not able to grasp anything at the moment, just a desire to keep reading.

I like your quotes above. The one from Chuang Tzu is very deep. I don't fully understand it either, but I think it does speak of a search for the true self. Considering himself hideous, the man is blinded to his true self and seeks a mirror to reveal it to him. That is my very incomplete take on it at the moment.

I'd like to continue the rest of this reply a little later, running out of time. Got a small job to do and a long drive to get there. :)
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Hi, not really sure exactly what you are reading. "The True Dharma Eye" can be the entire corpus of Dogen or simply relate to the Shobogenzo or the Genjokoan as parts of that corpus. But all good. I have a collection, "Moon in a Dewdrop" but without commentary I'm a bit lost as to what is the moon and what is the dewdrop, but maybe Dogen, with his having his cake and eating it too, sees himself as both. A book of commentary on the Genjokoan, the very first chapter, breaks down the Title. Gen........jo........ko........an. I have reread it a few times, and parts of it more. Maybe I will never get past this first chapter. (Merton says somewhere that in reading any book of meditations that we might end up surprised as to what we eventually find is being said to us - not what we expected to find, or looked for, nor confirmation of what we already think we know)
 
You can interpret the book of Revelation in anyway you wish to suit your take on faith. In my opinion it is a crazy book which has given ammunition to religious extremists. It is a pity it was ever included in the Bible.
 
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stranger said:
Wow, Tea, I wouldn't have imagined you could have trouble in school. Your input here always seems timely and you ask great questions. But yes, it can be devastating to get hammered by life in those formative years. If you turned out with an opposite fear, then you probably should be very afraid of me! (kidding)

Yes, grokking... I see hardly any difference, just a different perspective. I'm not going to rule out the divine in your case just yet ;), but that is just my perspective.
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Woah, what a compliment! Thanks!
No I don't fear "stupid people", I love smart people too much!
As if you wouldn't be smart... Don't be stupid....
Oh I don't mind dancing with the divine, I just don't se it.
 
JJ50 said:
You can interpret the book of Revelation in anyway you wish to suit your take on faith. In my opinion it is a crazy book which has given ammunition to religious extremists. It is a pity it was ever included in the Bible.
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Well, it's there. What "authority" put it there?

(It does seem almost uniquely pliable to accommodate the "End Times" industry)
 
CobblersApprentice said:
Hi, not really sure exactly what you are reading. "The True Dharma Eye" can be the entire corpus of Dogen or simply relate to the Shobogenzo or the Genjokoan as parts of that corpus. But all good. I have a collection, "Moon in a Dewdrop" but without commentary I'm a bit lost as to what is the moon and what is the dewdrop, but maybe Dogen, with his having his cake and eating it too, sees himself as both. A book of commentary on the Genjokoan, the very first chapter, breaks down the Title. Gen........jo........ko........an. I have reread it a few times, and parts of it more. Maybe I will never get past this first chapter. (Merton says somewhere that in reading any book of meditations that we might end up surprised as to what we eventually find is being said to us - not what we expected to find, or looked for, nor confirmation of what we already think we know)
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You can tell I am a beginner with this. :) This is the site I've been reading from:
https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Shobogenzo/Shobogenzo complete.pdf

I had bookmarked it as The True Dharma Eye, but it seems the title is actually "Shobogenzo, The Treasure House of the Eye of the True Teaching". The chapter I called "hot and cold" was actually "On Spring and Autumn: Warming Up and Cooling Down". I can see where I might have confused you. :)
 
CobblersApprentice said:
Hi, not really sure exactly what you are reading. "The True Dharma Eye" can be the entire corpus of Dogen or simply relate to the Shobogenzo or the Genjokoan as parts of that corpus. But all good. I have a collection, "Moon in a Dewdrop" but without commentary I'm a bit lost as to what is the moon and what is the dewdrop, but maybe Dogen, with his having his cake and eating it too, sees himself as both. A book of commentary on the Genjokoan, the very first chapter, breaks down the Title. Gen........jo........ko........an. I have reread it a few times, and parts of it more. Maybe I will never get past this first chapter. (Merton says somewhere that in reading any book of meditations that we might end up surprised as to what we eventually find is being said to us - not what we expected to find, or looked for, nor confirmation of what we already think we know)
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(Wrote a reply to this that might help clear up what I was reading, but as it contained the link of the site I was reading from, it is awaiting moderator approval, sorry.)
 
Curiously, the Book of Revelation seems to have had widespread acceptance from very early on, but only to be challenged later by theologians who questioned its authenticity.

As regards reception, all the 'usual suspects' are there: Papias (c.125), Justin Martyr (100-165) , Irenaeus (130-202), Clement of Alexandria (150-215), Tertullian (155-240), Hippolytus (170-235) and Origen (184-235). All these early authorities accepted Revelation as the work of the apostle John.

A first objection comes from Gaius (3rd century) who regarded the book as the work of the heretic Cerinthus (a proto-gnostic).

Dionysius of Alexandria (3rd century) asserts another John as the author, as did Eusebius, but neither rejected the book per se, regarding it as holy and inspired.

There were later doubts raised, but the fact that the book was quoted by early church fathers was a compelling argument of authority.

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Scribes have pointed out the most likely time of authorship was during the persecutions under the Emperor Domitian, and as such it's a call to cleave to the faith.

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Once the Church lost its authority over the interpretation of Scripture, Revelation became fair game, and in millennial-infatuated quarters, is a constant source of 'inspiration'.

Proof, if ever it was needed that the ability to read, and the assumption that one therefore understands what one's reading, is a delusion.
 
stranger said:
(Wrote a reply to this that might help clear up what I was reading, but as it contained the link of the site I was reading from, it is awaiting moderator approval, sorry.)
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That's OK. Whatever comes from what, I'm no expert on that . But I will be interested.
 
Thomas said:
Once the Church lost its authority over the interpretation of Scripture, Revelation became fair game, and in millennial-infatuated quarters, is a constant source of 'inspiration'.
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:)
 
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