Did Jesus Die On The Cross?

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The first proposes the substitution theory which it seems most respected Muslim scholars reject.

The second links to a document -- or a collection of documents -- not a particular passage, so I will have to check it out later
Your whole faith depends on whether a man died on a cross or not?
I have stated often that I believe God/Divine guides the sincere seeking soul any religion, any time, any place. Am responding this once
 
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It has, and continues to be, a point of contention between Muslim and Christian, whether or not Jesus was Crucified, and whether or not He died on the Cross.

The following is largely distilled from "The Muslim Jesus: Dead or Alive?" by Gabriel Said Reynolds, in the Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 72, No. 2 (2009), pp. 237-258 (22 pages), Publisher: Cambridge University Press. Gabriel Said Reynolds is Jerome J. Crowley and Rosaleen G. Crowley Professor of Theology and Assistant Professor of Islamic Studies and Theology at the University of Notre Dame.
I have omitted extensive references and footnotes, but will happily supply if wanted.

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It is Reynold's contention that the strong line on the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ emerged during a period of struggle between the emerging Islamic orthodoxy and its Christian and Jewish neighbours.

This first part is my own observation – a comment on Sura al-Ma’ida Chapter 5 of the Qur'an, in which a dialogue between Allah and Jesus takes place:
"And when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, "Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?'", he will answer, 'Holy art Thou. I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou Who art the Knower of hidden things." (5:116)
This is of interest, because if Jesus never said it, why does Allah accuse Him of it? There is nowhere in the Bible, nor in the writings of the Fathers nor, I think, in apocryphal texts, where Jesus asks the community to regard Mary as Divine.

What this text perhaps points to is a polemical view within the Christian Church at the time. After the Arab conquest of Persia (637), the caliphate recognised Persian Church, which had separated from the broader Orthodox Church, granting it legal protection. Nestorian scholars played a prominent role in the formation of Arab culture, and patriarchs occasionally gained influence with rulers.

The Prophet would not only be familiar with Nestorian doctrines, he would be informed by them. According to the account of his third wife Aisha, when the Prophet came down from the mountain:
"The Prophet returned to Khadija (first wife) while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic. Waraqa asked (the Prophet), 'What do you see?' When he told him, Waraqa said, 'That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."
Waraqa elsewhere is described as 'a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as God wished him to write' which suggests a scholar, if not a monk. He was most likely a Nestorian, and was regarded as an authority on spiritual matters.

Waraqa, if indeed Netorian, would regard the doctrine of the Incarnation as blasphemous. The suggestion that God would have a mother (Theotokos) was a distortion of the actual orthodox doctrine, but by now had become an accusation of the Nestorian church against orthodoxy, and the only place, and most likely place, for the idea that Mary be regarded as a God might arise.

The Sura al-Ma’ida continues:
"I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me – "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die (tawaffaytani), Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.'" (5:117)

The verb tawaffa causes significant problems among Muslim exegetes. Tawaffa appears in 25 passages in the Qur'an, twice in relation to Jesus (5.117 and 3.55). For the other 23, the standard and common definition is understood – separating the soul from the body, making someone die.

For the two verses where tawaffa applies to Jesus however, exegetes generally apply a secondary meaning of the term, 'to sleep' or even 'to take up', so reconciling these verses with the denial of the crucifixion. However, tawaffa means to die, and it takes some nuanced exegesis to make it say otherwise – it could be said that such a theological 'sleight of hand' is just the kind of thing Christian exegetes are accused of – reading 'young woman' to mean 'virgin' is an obvious example.

This points to the exegete’s desire to prove that the verb tawaffa can be reconciled with the received doctrine that Jesus did not die, that he was taken body and soul into heaven, whence he will return. The only difference is how that reconciliation is achieved. One group associates with Jesus falling asleep before he ascended to heaven, another with the ascension itself.

Thus 3.55: "God said, 'O Jesus, I will make you die (sleep), raise you up to me, purify you from those who disbelieved, and lift those who have followed you above the disbelievers until the Day of Resurrection, then you will all return to me.'" According to this sequence, God raises Jesus to heaven, but only after He first causes Him to die (sleep).

Surat al-nisa' (4.157-8), denies that the Jews killed Christ. Verse I58 says rafa’ahu Allahu ilayhi: "God raised him to Himself." The same as Surat al Imran (3.55) implies: God – and not the Jews – has Jesus die, and then raises Him to heaven.

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As @Grandad points out, there are different and contradictory traditions born of exegetical speculation in the interpretation of the Qur'an. The betrayer tradition – that Judas was made to look like Jesus and arrested and crucified in His place – goes on to explain 4.157: "Those who dispute over it are covered in doubt." Once the betrayer was taken away, the story goes on: "Some of (the disciples) said, 'He is a God and it was not right to kill him'. Some of them said, 'He was killed and crucified.' Some of them said, 'If that was Jesus then where is our companion?' and 'If that was our companion then where is Jesus?'’ Some of them said, 'He was raised to heaven.' Some of them said, 'The face was the face of Jesus but the body the body of our companion.' It is the disciples who fall into confusion.

A further commentary divides the disciples into three groups: "One group said, 'God was among us and then ascended to heaven.' These are the Jacobites. One group said, 'The son of God was among us and then God raised him to Himself.' These are the Nestorians. One group said, 'A servant of God and His messenger was among us and then God raised him to Himself.' These are the Muslims. The two unbelieving sects prevailed against the Muslims and killed them. Islam was eradicated until God sent Muhammad – God’s blessing and peace be upon him.”

This commentary counters the two Christian sects in the medieval Islamic world. At the same time the exegesis renders Jesus and His disciples as Muslim, but the Christians exterminated the Muslim disciples of Jesus.

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The universality of the view that Jesus will return goes some way to explain the necessary rejection of his death, and the lengths commentaries go to explain it or, as some might say, explain it away. There can hardly be any other reason to argue that tawaffa refers to death in 23 appearances in the Qur'an, but not in the case of the two references to Jesus.

The ambiguous language of Surat al-nisa’ 4.157-8, in denying the Jews killed Jesus and affirms that God raised him to heaven, leads exegetes to speculate freely on what actually happened.

The Qur'an hardly speaks of Jesus in eschatological terms. Surat al-nisa’ 4.159 refers to his role as witness on the Day of Resurrection, while surat al-zukhruf 43.61 seems to describe Him as knowledge, or a Sign of the Hour or, if a minor emendation to the Cairo text might be entertained, knowing the Hour. Still both of these verses allude to Jesus’ place in the apocalyptic Hour (that is, in the Final Judgement), but not the End Time that will precede it. None of the events which Jesus is said by the exegetes to accomplish in the End Time – the killing al-Dajjal (the Deceiver), leading believers in prayer, breaking crosses, killing swine (and Christians) – are mentioned in the Qur'an.

Then why these traditions? Because in the sectarian milieu in which they emerged, they are useful in two different ways.

First, they have a distinctly anti-Christian tenor. Jesus, after descending to earth, will not only break all crosses and kill all swine, but also, according to one tradition reported by lbn Kathir (d c 1373), He will compel all Christians to become Muslims, under penalty of the sword. This suggests that eschatology became an arena in which Muslim-Christian competition was played out. Jesus was the central figure in Christian eschatology, and Christians had long before developed a detailed narrative of His feats in the End Time. Indeed much of the material in Islamic exegetical tradition is a development of this Christian narrative.

For example, the name of the Islamic anti-Christ, al-Dajjal, never appears in the Qur'an, it derives from the Syriac daggala, an adjective used for the anti-Christ by Ephraem (d 373AD) and Pseudo-Methodius, the latter writing in the 7th century (attributed to the 4th century bishop, martyr and saint).

Meanwhile, the new Muslim rulers order the removal Christian symbolism, and build the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. The inscriptions on the Dome are taken from the Qur'an, asserting monotheism as a response to a belief in the Trinity and the reverence of the Virgin Mary and the saints, which Muslims saw as polytheistic.

Second, by having Jesus so prominent in these traditions an anti-Shii effect is also achieved. At the heart of a developing Shii doctrine was the role of the Twelfth lmam, al-qa’im bi-l-sayf, as the Mahdi in the end times. This does not mean that Jesus finds no role at all in Shii eschatology. The Shii exegete Qummi acknowledges Jesus, but comments that at the time of universal prayer of Jesus descended upon Jerusalem, “He will pray behind the Mahdi.” Other Shii traditions describe how the Imam/Mahdi will exact vengeance on the Sunnis for their crimes against the Prophet’s family. In response Sunni eschatological traditions increasingly emphasised the role of Jesus in the eschaton. Indeed, some Sunni traditions insist that there would be no other Mahdi but Jesus himself.

Thus Jesus became the Sunni answer to the Shii, and his preservation from death was accordingly emphasised. In other words, the doctrine that Jesus was saved from death (at the hands of the evil Jews) developed in the same way as the Shii doctrine that the Twelfth Imam was saved from death (at the hands of the evil Sunnis). In both cases the point is eschatology. Jesus and the Imam are saved from death for the sake of their role in the End Time.

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Thus the motivations of the classical commentaries in denying the death of Jesus are understandable, while the elusive nature of the Qur'an itself allows for an interpretation which is entirely in line with orthodox Christian belief.
 
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To continue from Reynold's article:

There is always the risk of exegetical atomism, in studying verses in isolation. When it comes to the Qur’an on the Crucifixion, Surat al-Nisa’ 4.157 seems to warn against just that, opening with the word wii (‘and’). When this 'and' is taken into account, the verse is contextualised with what has gone before, and it’s apparent that the Qur’an is in no way denying Jesus’ death, rather it is referring to another example Israel’s infidelity.

In this Surat the Qur’an provides six examples: worshipping the golden calf (4.153), breaking the covenant (4.155; cf. 5.13), disbelieving the signs of God (4.155; cf: 3.4), murdering the prophets (4.155; cf. 3.181), slandering Mary (4.156; cf. 19.27-8) and claiming to have killed Jesus (4.157). In other words, in the verse the Qur’an can be read to defend Jesus from the claims of the Jews, as it defends Mary from their claims in the previous verse. Whether or not Jesus died is simply not the matter at hand – who lives and who dies, when and how, is entirely in God's hands.

An understanding of the crucifixion is to appreciate the rhetoric of the larger passage in which it stands. This is marked by an anti-Jewish polemic. The Qur’anic scholar (and liberal theologian) Nasr Abu Zayd comments: "Since (the reference to the Crucifixion) exists only in the context of responding to the Jewish claim, the discourse structure suggests it was denying the capability of the Jews to have done this depending on their own power" (Rethinking the Qur’an: Towards a Humanistic Hermeneutics, Amsterdam Humanistics University Press, 2004.) Others appreciate the insight: "It is important to study the context of this passage, which is that of the rejection of the messengers of God by the Jews, the first People of the Book" (Geoffrey Parrinder, Professor of Comparative Religion, Kings College London, Jesus in the Qur’an, Faber & Faber, 1965).

Kenneth Cragg (Anglican bishop notable for Christian-Muslim relations) argued that the emphasis of Surat al-Nisa’ 4.157-8 is not on the crucifixion itself but on the evil instinct of humans, who believed they could outsmart God by killing His messenger.

Neal Robinson in his Encyclopaedia of the Qur’an entry on Jesus writes that the Qur’an crucifixion might mean "that although the Jews thought that they had killed Jesus, Muslims should not think of him as dead because, from the Qur’anic perspective, He is alive with God like the martyrs of Uhud (3.169)."

The Qur’an repeatedly presents the Jews as killers of the Prophets. The Qur'an relates, "We made a covenant with the Israelites and sent messengers to them. But as for those messengers who brought them something they did not desire, (the Israelites) rejected some of them and killed others” (cf. 3.21, 112, 181, 183; 4.155). In other words, the Qur'an not only leaves open the possibility that Jesus died on the cross, it uses His death on the cross as a paradigmatic example of Jewish infidelity, the primary theme of the larger passage in which the reference to the crucifixion appears (4.153-9). At the same time the Qur'an makes the death of Jesus an example of divine control over human actions. As 3.54 puts it: "They schemed and God schemed. God is the best of schemers."

The second theme is divine control over life and death. Indeed it seems to me that the Qur'an uses the transitive verb tawaffa to teach just this point. Humans can no more take a human life than they can create one. God creates life and He takes life away. This is why the Quran tells the believers in 8.17: "You did not kill them. God killed them." Still more explicit is 3.145: "No one can die except by God’s permission". Elsewhere the Qur'an uses the death of Jesus (and Mary) as a paradigmatic example to this effect, when it asks: "If God desired to take the life of Jesus the Son of Mary, and his mother, and everyone on earth, who could resist Him?" (5.17).

Thus the Jews who claim to have killed Jesus in 4.157 are twice in error: They both schemed against the Messenger of God and arrogated to themselves God’s power over life and death. Meanwhile, it is worth noting that when the Qur'an uses the crucifixion as a paradigmatic example of Jewish perfidy it is in close conversation with Christian tradition. Indeed one of the fundamental tropes of the New Testament is the exaltation of Jesus above the scheme of the Jews.

For this reason the Synoptic Evangelists have Jesus quote Psalm 118.22-3: "The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone" (Matthew 21.42; Mark 12.1; Luke 20.17). Again this line is quoted in Acts of the Apostles by by Peter, while standing in front of the Sanhedrin with a man whom he has cured. Here, in fact, Peter makes it explicit that the "builders" of Psalm 118.22 are the Jews who schemed against Jesus: "You must know, all of you, and the whole people of Israel, that it is by the name of Jesus Christ, the Nazarene, whom you crucified, and God raised from the dead, by this name and by no other that this man stands before you cured. This is the stone which you, the builders, rejected but which has become the cornerstone" (Acts 4.10-11).

The sequence of Surat al-Nisa’ 4.157-8 suggests precisely this theme. The Jews boast of killing Jesus when the event was in fact determined by God (4.157), who raised Jesus in triumph (4.158). In this light, the most important verse is the one that follows: "Every one from the People of the Book will believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them" (4.159). While the commentaries conclude that the Qur'an makes Jesus a judge of both Jews and Christians in this verse, the fact that the entire pericope (4.153-9) is anti-Jewish suggests that the Qur'an is referring in particular to Jesus, risen from the dead, as a witness against his murderers.

This idea is found in the Gospels, the Son of Man as apocalyptic judge (Matthew 25.31-46; John 5.26-7). Matthew has Jesus declare in front of His judges, "I tell you that from this time onward you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 26:64; cf. Mark 14.62; Luke 22.69; Revelation 1.13; 14.14; also Psalm 110.1 and Daniel 7.13). John has Pilate place Jesus on the seat of judgement before the Jews (John 19.13). Even the apostles of Jesus will have the authority to judge the Jews: "Jesus said to them, 'In truth I tell you, when everything is made new again and the Son of man is seated on his throne of glory, you yourselves will sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel'" (Matthew 19.28).

The Qur'an’s allusions to the Jews speaking against Mary (4.156) and to their claiming to have killed Jesus (4.157) have no clear biblical precedent. Rather, they seem to reflect more developed anti-Jewish rhetoric, particularly the anti-Jewish polemic in Syriac Christian writings. Meanwhile, and as the late Franciscan theologian Giulio Basetti-Sani has pointed out, (as did @Grandad above) the Quran’s rejection of Jewish claims appears as a response to anti-Christian passages in the Talmud. Sanhedrin 43a reports: "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy." In that same Tractate the Talmud also slanders the virtue of Mary: "This is what men say, 'She who was the descendant of princes and governors, played the harlot with carpenters.'" Perhaps it is not coincidental that Qur'an contains, in the same Surat, indeed in the same passage, a defence of Mary from Jewish calumny and a rejection of the Jewish claim to have killed Christ.

Read in this light, the Qur'an is closely in conversation with Christian tradition in its passage on the crucifixion, a passage that is often described as an example of the stark differences between Islam and Christianity. The reason for this description, is perhaps the tendency to read the Qur'an through the lens of Islamic exegesis. If indeed the Qur'an intends, as the classical commentaries report, that Jesus was taken up into heaven while his appearance was miraculously cast on one of his faithful disciples (or all of them, or His betrayer), then it would certainly be in stark contrast with Christian tradition on the crucifixion. Yet the very nature of such commentary should warn critical scholars from using them as a lens through which to read the Qur'an.

A contemporary Islamic scholar Mahmoud Ayoub noted that the Qur'an does not deny the death of Jesus, and adds that the idea that someone other than Jesus appeared on the cross is inconsistent with the Qur'an's theological principles.

This point might be taken still further. If tafsir provide an accurate explanation of the Qur’an’s original, intended meaning, then nowhere should the explanation be clearer than in the case of the Crucifixion. lf the Prophet Muhammad announced to his companions that Jesus never died, but rather someone who was made miraculously to look like him died in his place, if he gave an account which fundamentally contradicts that which Jews and Christians had been reporting for hundreds of years, then certainly such an account would be well remembered and well preserved. But, quite to the contrary, the reports of the commentaries are inconsistent and often contradictory. They have all of the tell-tale signs of speculative exegesis.

This is reason enough for critical scholars to read the Qur’an passage alongside earlier (Jewish and Christian) and not later (exegetical and polemical) literature. When the Qur’an is read in this light, it quickly becomes apparent that the passage on the crucifixion is fully in line with Christian anti-Jewish rhetoric. A major theme of this rhetoric being the portrayal of the Jews as prophet-killers (cf 4.155). When the Qur’an then alludes to the crucifixion just two verses later, it means to give the cardinal example of just such a murder.
 
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Afternoon @Grandad.

Martin Lings is something of a hero to my son.
An admirable man.

I am new to Frithjof Schuon, and look forward to absorbing his wisdom.
When I first stumbled across the Traditionalists, he was a light in the darkness. I read his works and found his writing 'luminous'. I lent a book to a close friend, who gave it back and said, "I don't understand a single world of it" – and we had great theological debates!

I understood something of the resonance of language then. I became steeped in the Traditionalists' writings, to the point when I could spot a Trad after reading a few lines. (I once found a piece of writing that 'reeked' of the Trad flavour, only to discover that I had written it, years before ... :D)

René Guénon – a great friend of Lings – is a much more excoriating commentator. His metaphysic is rigorous and clean, indeed perhaps spotless – but there is no apparent warmth, although I am in no doubt he possessed it in abundance. His was the eye of a laser.

It came as no surprise to me that these men, Europeans, went separate ways. Guénon lived anonymously in a little house in Cairo, spent his days in study, correspondence and prayer. None of his neighbours knew who he was, or the influence he had. He was an exemplar of humility – forgive me if I do not know the correct Arabic for such an admirable virtue.

Schuon went to America and founded his own Tariqah, and that became embroiled in a scandal regarding sexual misconduct. I do not know the full story – I met and conversed with his publisher, James Wetmore of Sophia Perennis Press – but he was protective of Schuon's reputation. Wetmore told me that in conversation with the English composer John Taverner, he was told Taverner believed he was channeling Schuon.

Tavener was of the Russian Orthodox Church, and drawn to the Traditionalist viewpoint. The Protecting Veil, and the later The Veil of the Temple are profound works. He's probably most famous for Song for Athene, performed at the funeral of Princess Diana.

(An essay by another Trad, Marco Pallis, a Tibetan Buddhist, was indirectly responsible for my recovering my Catholic faith – the Lord indeed moves in mysterious ways!)

God bless.

 
First, they have a distinctly anti-Christian tenor. Jesus, after descending to earth, will not only break all crosses and kill all swine, but also, according to one tradition reported by lbn Kathir (d c 1373), He will compel all Christians to become Muslims, under penalty of the sword..

That is nothing other than "fear-mongering" . It is simply not true.

"Breaking the cross" means that Jesus will announce that "the cross" as an article of faith is not true. Those that continue to insist that it is, will not accept Jesus as being Jesus.

..naturally, that means that they will not be on the side of the "goodies". They therefore must be on the side of the "baddies" and be working for big dajjal and evil.

As you know, the big dajjal will say he is God, but he is a liar!

Christians and others will be welcomed. It is only if they oppose Jesus that they will be slaughtered.
 
To me it makes far more sense to accept the death on the cross based on the evidence of reputable Roman historians and behaviour of early Christians ready to be murdered for their belief in that fact, and while close followers and apostles of Jesus were still alive amongst them -- than to construct complicated conspiracy theories around a few words in the Quran written 600 years later ... and which completely go against the nature of the Jesus of the gospels
 
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That is nothing other than "fear-mongering". It is simply not true.
It's not fear-mongering, it's telling it like it is.

Surat al-Nisa
says:
Those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers, and want to separate between Allah and His messengers, and say, "We believe in some, and reject some," and wish to take a path in between. These are the unbelievers, truly. We have prepared for the unbelievers a shameful punishment." (4:150-151)
is that 'shameful punishment' fear-mongering? Some may see it so, I don't think so. Sacred Scriptures do not shy away from the toxicity of sin.

"Breaking the cross" means that Jesus will announce that "the cross" as an article of faith is not true. Those that continue to insist that it is, will not accept Jesus as being Jesus.
The point is, as the article says, there is no basis in the Qur'an for any such a statement in the first place.

As you know, the big dajjal will say he is God, but he is a liar!
Well, you heard it here first! ;)

Christians and others will be welcomed. It is only if they oppose Jesus that they will be slaughtered.
And yet who can fathom the Mercy of God?

It is my hope and prayer that Hell is empty, that every soul will have the chance to repent, that all will be saved, in sha'Allah!
 
@Grandad
Text of Pliny the Younger’s letter to Trajan and Trajan’s reply:

http://www.attalus.org/old/pliny10b.html

(96) L To Trajan.

It is my custom, Sir, to refer to you in all cases where I do not feel sure, for who can better direct my doubts or inform my ignorance? I have never been present at any legal examination of the Christians, and I do not know, therefore, what are the usual penalties passed upon them, or the limits of those penalties, or how searching an inquiry should be made. I have hesitated a great deal in considering whether any distinctions should be drawn according to the ages of the accused; whether the weak should be punished as severely as the more robust; whether if they renounce their faith they should be pardoned, or whether the man who has once been a Christian should gain nothing by recanting; whether the name itself, even though otherwise innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes that gather round it.

In the meantime, this is the plan which I have adopted in the case of those Christians who have been brought before me. I ask them whether they are Christians; if they say yes, then I repeat the question a second and a third time, warning them of the penalties it entails, and if they still persist, I order them to be taken away to prison. For I do not doubt that, whatever the character of the crime may be which they confess, their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy certainly ought to be punished. * There were others who showed similar mad folly whom I reserved to be sent to Rome, as they were Roman citizens. ** Subsequently, as is usually the way, the very fact of my taking up this question led to a great increase of accusations, and a variety of cases were brought before me.

A pamphlet was issued anonymously, containing the names of a number of people. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians and called upon the gods in the usual formula, reciting the words after me, those who offered incense and wine before your image, which I had given orders to be brought forward for this purpose, together with the statues of the deities - all such I considered should be discharged, especially as they cursed the name of Christ, which, it is said, those who are really Christians cannot be induced to do.

Others, whose names were given me by an informer, first said that they were Christians and afterwards denied it, declaring that they had been but were so no longer, some of them having recanted many years before, and more than one so long as twenty years back. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the deities, and cursed the name of Christ.

But they declared that the sum of their guilt or their error only amounted to this, that on a stated day they had been accustomed to meet before daybreak and to recite a hymn among themselves to Christ, as though he were a god, and that so far from binding themselves by oath to commit any crime, their oath was to abstain from theft, robbery, adultery, and from breach of faith, and not to deny trust money placed in their keeping when called upon to deliver it. When this ceremony was concluded, it had been their custom to depart and meet again to take food, but it was of no special character and quite harmless, and they had ceased this practice after the edict in which, in accordance with your orders, I had forbidden all secret societies. †

I thought it the more necessary, therefore, to find out what truth there was in these statements by submitting two women, who were called deaconesses, to the torture, but I found nothing but a debased superstition carried to great lengths. So I postponed my examination, and immediately consulted you.


The matter seems to me worthy of your consideration, especially as there are so many people involved in the danger. Many persons of all ages, and of both sexes alike, are being brought into peril of their lives by their accusers, and the process will go on. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only through the free cities, but into the villages and the rural districts, and yet it seems to me that it can be checked and set right. It is beyond doubt that the temples, which have been almost deserted, are beginning again to be thronged with worshippers, that the sacred rites which have for a long time been allowed to lapse are now being renewed, and that the food for the sacrificial victims is once more finding a sale, whereas, up to recently, a buyer was hardly to be found. From this it is easy to infer what vast numbers of people might be reclaimed, if only they were given an opportunity of repentance.

(*) Pliny leaves it unclear whether the Christians were accused of a specific crime; it seems that to confess to being Christian was considered sufficient proof of guilt.

(**) Except by special delegation of the Emperor's own legal powers, no provincial governor had power to inflict the death penalty on a Roman citizen, but must allow him to take his trial at Rome.

(†) Or 'political societies'. The same word {hetaeriae} is used in relation to a guild of firemen, in letter 34 of this book.

(97) L Trajan to Pliny.

You have adopted the proper course, my dear Pliny, in examining into the cases of those who have been denounced to you as Christians, for no hard and fast rule can be laid down to meet a question of such wide extent. The Christians are not to be hunted out ; if they are brought before you and the offence is proved, they are to be punished, but with this reservation - that if any one denies that he is a Christian and makes it clear that he is not, by offering prayers to our deities, then he is to be pardoned because of his recantation, however suspicious his past conduct may have been. * But pamphlets published anonymously must not carry any weight whatever, no matter what the charge may be, for they are not only a precedent of the very worst type, but they are not in consonance with the spirit of our age.

(*) For an early Christian reaction to Trajan's decision, see Tertullian's 'Apology', chapter 2 (written in about 197 A.D.)

.
 
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To me it makes far more sense to accept the death on the cross based on the evidence of reputable Roman historians and behaviour of early Christians ready to be murdered for their belief in that fact..

No .. that is purely an assumption that they "gave up their lives because they accepted the death of Jesus on a cross".

..let's take St. Stephen, often named as the first Christian martyr.

They dragged him to appear before the Sanhedrin, the supreme legal court of Jewish elders, accusing him of preaching against the Temple and the Mosaic Law.[Acts 6:9–14] Stephen is said to have been unperturbed, his face looking like "that of an angel"
...
Stephen recounts the stories of the patriarchs in some depth, and goes into even more detail in the case of Moses. God appeared to Moses in the burning bush,[Acts 7:30–32] and inspired Moses to lead his people out of Egypt. Nevertheless, the Israelites turned to other gods.[Acts 7:39–43] This establishes the second main theme of Stephen's speech, Israel's disobedience to God. Stephen faced two accusations: that he had declared that Jesus would destroy the Temple in Jerusalem and that he had changed the customs of Moses. Benedict XVI stated that St. Stephen appealed to the Jewish scriptures to prove how the laws of Moses were not subverted by Jesus but, instead, were being fulfilled.

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Claudia Setzer asserts that, "Jews did not see Christians as clearly separate from their own community until at least the middle of the second century" but most scholars place the "parting of the ways" much earlier, with theological separation occurring immediately. Second Temple Judaism had allowed more than one way to be Jewish. After the fall of the Temple, one way led to rabbinic Judaism, while another way became Christianity; but Christianity was "molded around the conviction that the Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, was not only the Messiah promised to the Jews, but God's son, offering access to God, and God"s blessing to non-Jew as much as, and perhaps eventually more than, to Jews"
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The above is very important. "most scholars consider theological separation occurred immediately".
I feel sure that they refer to Orthodox Christian scholars, and not historians :)

The persecution of Christians occurred throughout most of the Roman Empire's history, beginning in the 1st century AD. Originally a polytheistic empire in the traditions of Roman paganism and the Hellenistic religion, as Christianity spread through the empire, it came into ideological conflict with the imperial cult of ancient Rome. Pagan practices such as making sacrifices to the deified emperors or other gods were abhorrent to Christians as their beliefs prohibited idolatry. The state and other members of civic society punished Christians for treason, various rumored crimes, illegal assembly, and for introducing an alien cult that led to Roman apostasy.
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..nothing to do with faith in dying on a cross .. they were being punished / oppressed for spreading "a Jewish cult" that contradicted their Roman pagan culture. Nothing new there.

One should also consider that converts are often more zealous, and that would also
upset the authorities.

Many of those who were persecuted could well have believed in the crucifixion, but
why would that be the main reason that they were willing to die?
No .. it's just something that you imagine .. nothing more, imo.

You probably think that they were "following Jesus" by sacrificing themselves.
That thought is dangerous for your mental health. o_O
 
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It is my hope and prayer that Hell is empty, that every soul will have the chance to repent, that all will be saved, in sha'Allah!

Nobody will be slaughtered because "they are a Christian or a disbeliever" ..
They will be slaughtered because they will actively seek to kill the believers, and hence they are enemies of Jesus
and those that follow him.
 
Nobody will be slaughtered because "they are a Christian or a disbeliever" ..
They will be slaughtered because they will actively seek to kill the believers, and hence they are enemies of Jesus
and those that follow him.
Sounds rather grim and dark.

Is there a chance we can get back to interfaith dialogue? This One-Upmanship For Jesus routine is getting a bit repetitive.
 
Indeed .. it is reality.
China / Russia .. the west / the east .. the struggle for wealth and power .. climate change .. increasing calamities
da da, da da
Yes, and then there's a lot of bright good things as well.

Our energy follows our attention.

When I look at grim things all day, I end up feeling lost in the dark. When I look at the light, I tend to feel more spacious and luminous.

One thing about darkness which I learned is that it is powerless against even a matchlight, or a tea candle, a lamp in a niche, whose fuel belongs to neither East or West.

In Light,
Cino
 
..a lamp in a niche, whose fuel belongs to neither East or West..

Yes, Allah is able to enlighten us on a variety of subjects ;)
One of the most difficult things in this life, is having the patience to persevere in times of difficulty or oppression.
It is understandable why a long-term prisoner may contemplate suicide, for example, but patience is better.

Almighty God forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills.
He wrongs nobody, but we wrong ourselves.
 
No .. that is purely an assumption that they "gave up their lives because they accepted the death of Jesus on a cross".

..let's take St. Stephen, often named as the first Christian martyr.

They dragged him to appear before the Sanhedrin, the supreme legal court of Jewish elders, accusing him of preaching against the Temple and the Mosaic Law.[Acts 6:9–14] Stephen is said to have been unperturbed, his face looking like "that of an angel"
...
Stephen recounts the stories of the patriarchs in some depth, and goes into even more detail in the case of Moses. God appeared to Moses in the burning bush,[Acts 7:30–32] and inspired Moses to lead his people out of Egypt. Nevertheless, the Israelites turned to other gods.[Acts 7:39–43] This establishes the second main theme of Stephen's speech, Israel's disobedience to God. Stephen faced two accusations: that he had declared that Jesus would destroy the Temple in Jerusalem and that he had changed the customs of Moses. Benedict XVI stated that St. Stephen appealed to the Jewish scriptures to prove how the laws of Moses were not subverted by Jesus but, instead, were being fulfilled.

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Claudia Setzer asserts that, "Jews did not see Christians as clearly separate from their own community until at least the middle of the second century" but most scholars place the "parting of the ways" much earlier, with theological separation occurring immediately. Second Temple Judaism had allowed more than one way to be Jewish. After the fall of the Temple, one way led to rabbinic Judaism, while another way became Christianity; but Christianity was "molded around the conviction that the Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, was not only the Messiah promised to the Jews, but God's son, offering access to God, and God"s blessing to non-Jew as much as, and perhaps eventually more than, to Jews"
-wiki-


The above is very important. "most scholars consider theological separation occurred immediately".
I feel sure that they refer to Orthodox Christian scholars, and not historians :)

The persecution of Christians occurred throughout most of the Roman Empire's history, beginning in the 1st century AD. Originally a polytheistic empire in the traditions of Roman paganism and the Hellenistic religion, as Christianity spread through the empire, it came into ideological conflict with the imperial cult of ancient Rome. Pagan practices such as making sacrifices to the deified emperors or other gods were abhorrent to Christians as their beliefs prohibited idolatry. The state and other members of civic society punished Christians for treason, various rumored crimes, illegal assembly, and for introducing an alien cult that led to Roman apostasy.
-wiki-

..nothing to do with faith in dying on a cross .. they were being punished / oppressed for spreading "a Jewish cult" that contradicted their Roman pagan culture. Nothing new there.

One should also consider that converts are often more zealous, and that would also
upset the authorities.

Many of those who were persecuted could well have believed in the crucifixion, but
why would that be the main reason that they were willing to die?
No .. it's just something that you imagine .. nothing more, imo.

You probably think that they were "following Jesus" by sacrificing themselves.
That thought is dangerous for your mental health. o_O
Previously you said early Christians were mislead into believing that Jesus had died on the cross. That is: they did believe it. Thus includes Peter and James and other close (Jewish) followers of Jesus.

So did they believe it, or not?

Of course they believed it. The crucifixion was central to their belief.

Repeating a conspiracy theory doesn't make it any more real, imo
 
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Previously you said early Christians were mislead into believing that Jesus had died on the cross. That is: they did believe it. Thus includes Peter and James and other close (Jewish) followers of Jesus.

So did they believe it, or not?

Of course they believed it. The crucifixion was central to their belief.

Repeating a conspiracy theory doesn't make it any more real, imo

No. The crucifixion is central to YOUR belief.
Early Christians believed in the shema, and did not believe that Jesus was divine.
They did not worship Jesus, but worshipped ALONGSIDE Jesus.

At what point in time, the modern Christian creed became in the majority is not
straightforward..
You claim that his disciples always believed that "he is God" from the start, and I say that
you are surely mistaken !
 
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At what point in time, the modern Christian creed became in the majority is not
straightforward..
You claim that his disciples always believed that "he is God" from the start, and I say that
you are surely mistaken !
It was certainly estaished by 112AD when Pliny the Younger write to Trajan
@Grandad
Text of Pliny the Younger’s letter to Trajan and Trajan’s reply:

http://www.attalus.org/old/pliny10b.html

(96) L To Trajan.

It is my custom, Sir, to refer to you in all cases where I do not feel sure, for who can better direct my doubts or inform my ignorance? I have never been present at any legal examination of the Christians, and I do not know, therefore, what are the usual penalties passed upon them, or the limits of those penalties, or how searching an inquiry should be made. I have hesitated a great deal in considering whether any distinctions should be drawn according to the ages of the accused; whether the weak should be punished as severely as the more robust; whether if they renounce their faith they should be pardoned, or whether the man who has once been a Christian should gain nothing by recanting; whether the name itself, even though otherwise innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes that gather round it.

In the meantime, this is the plan which I have adopted in the case of those Christians who have been brought before me. I ask them whether they are Christians; if they say yes, then I repeat the question a second and a third time, warning them of the penalties it entails, and if they still persist, I order them to be taken away to prison. For I do not doubt that, whatever the character of the crime may be which they confess, their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy certainly ought to be punished. * There were others who showed similar mad folly whom I reserved to be sent to Rome, as they were Roman citizens. ** Subsequently, as is usually the way, the very fact of my taking up this question led to a great increase of accusations, and a variety of cases were brought before me.

A pamphlet was issued anonymously, containing the names of a number of people. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians and called upon the gods in the usual formula, reciting the words after me, those who offered incense and wine before your image, which I had given orders to be brought forward for this purpose, together with the statues of the deities - all such I considered should be discharged, especially as they cursed the name of Christ, which, it is said, those who are really Christians cannot be induced to do.

Others, whose names were given me by an informer, first said that they were Christians and afterwards denied it, declaring that they had been but were so no longer, some of them having recanted many years before, and more than one so long as twenty years back. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the deities, and cursed the name of Christ.

But they declared that the sum of their guilt or their error only amounted to this, that on a stated day they had been accustomed to meet before daybreak and to recite a hymn among themselves to Christ, as though he were a god, and that so far from binding themselves by oath to commit any crime, their oath was to abstain from theft, robbery, adultery, and from breach of faith, and not to deny trust money placed in their keeping when called upon to deliver it. When this ceremony was concluded, it had been their custom to depart and meet again to take food, but it was of no special character and quite harmless, and they had ceased this practice after the edict in which, in accordance with your orders, I had forbidden all secret societies. †

I thought it the more necessary, therefore, to find out what truth there was in these statements by submitting two women, who were called deaconesses, to the torture, but I found nothing but a debased superstition carried to great lengths. So I postponed my examination, and immediately consulted you.


The matter seems to me worthy of your consideration, especially as there are so many people involved in the danger. Many persons of all ages, and of both sexes alike, are being brought into peril of their lives by their accusers, and the process will go on. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only through the free cities, but into the villages and the rural districts, and yet it seems to me that it can be checked and set right. It is beyond doubt that the temples, which have been almost deserted, are beginning again to be thronged with worshippers, that the sacred rites which have for a long time been allowed to lapse are now being renewed, and that the food for the sacrificial victims is once more finding a sale, whereas, up to recently, a buyer was hardly to be found. From this it is easy to infer what vast numbers of people might be reclaimed, if only they were given an opportunity of repentance.

(*) Pliny leaves it unclear whether the Christians were accused of a specific crime; it seems that to confess to being Christian was considered sufficient proof of guilt.

(**) Except by special delegation of the Emperor's own legal powers, no provincial governor had power to inflict the death penalty on a Roman citizen, but must allow him to take his trial at Rome.

(†) Or 'political societies'. The same word {hetaeriae} is used in relation to a guild of firemen, in letter 34 of this book.

(97) L Trajan to Pliny.

You have adopted the proper course, my dear Pliny, in examining into the cases of those who have been denounced to you as Christians, for no hard and fast rule can be laid down to meet a question of such wide extent. The Christians are not to be hunted out ; if they are brought before you and the offence is proved, they are to be punished, but with this reservation - that if any one denies that he is a Christian and makes it clear that he is not, by offering prayers to our deities, then he is to be pardoned because of his recantation, however suspicious his past conduct may have been. * But pamphlets published anonymously must not carry any weight whatever, no matter what the charge may be, for they are not only a precedent of the very worst type, but they are not in consonance with the spirit of our age.

(*) For an early Christian reaction to Trajan's decision, see Tertullian's 'Apology', chapter 2 (written in about 197 A.D.)

.
Probably much earlier, by 6OAD when Nero was murdering them, as Tacitus reports, for their eucharistic 'depravity' believed by outsiders to mean cannabilsm, etc.

Of course they believed Jesus died on the cross
 
@Grandad
Text of Pliny the Younger’s letter to Trajan and Trajan’s reply:

http://www.attalus.org/old/pliny10b.html

(96) L To Trajan.

It is my custom, Sir, to refer to you in all cases where I do not feel sure, for who can better direct my doubts or inform my ignorance? I have never been present at any legal examination of the Christians, and I do not know, therefore, what are the usual penalties passed upon them, or the limits of those penalties, or how searching an inquiry should be made. I have hesitated a great deal in considering whether any distinctions should be drawn according to the ages of the accused; whether the weak should be punished as severely as the more robust; whether if they renounce their faith they should be pardoned, or whether the man who has once been a Christian should gain nothing by recanting; whether the name itself, even though otherwise innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes that gather round it.

In the meantime, this is the plan which I have adopted in the case of those Christians who have been brought before me. I ask them whether they are Christians; if they say yes, then I repeat the question a second and a third time, warning them of the penalties it entails, and if they still persist, I order them to be taken away to prison. For I do not doubt that, whatever the character of the crime may be which they confess, their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy certainly ought to be punished. * There were others who showed similar mad folly whom I reserved to be sent to Rome, as they were Roman citizens. ** Subsequently, as is usually the way, the very fact of my taking up this question led to a great increase of accusations, and a variety of cases were brought before me.

A pamphlet was issued anonymously, containing the names of a number of people. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians and called upon the gods in the usual formula, reciting the words after me, those who offered incense and wine before your image, which I had given orders to be brought forward for this purpose, together with the statues of the deities - all such I considered should be discharged, especially as they cursed the name of Christ, which, it is said, those who are really Christians cannot be induced to do.

Others, whose names were given me by an informer, first said that they were Christians and afterwards denied it, declaring that they had been but were so no longer, some of them having recanted many years before, and more than one so long as twenty years back. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the deities, and cursed the name of Christ.

But they declared that the sum of their guilt or their error only amounted to this, that on a stated day they had been accustomed to meet before daybreak and to recite a hymn among themselves to Christ, as though he were a god, and that so far from binding themselves by oath to commit any crime, their oath was to abstain from theft, robbery, adultery, and from breach of faith, and not to deny trust money placed in their keeping when called upon to deliver it. When this ceremony was concluded, it had been their custom to depart and meet again to take food, but it was of no special character and quite harmless, and they had ceased this practice after the edict in which, in accordance with your orders, I had forbidden all secret societies. †

I thought it the more necessary, therefore, to find out what truth there was in these statements by submitting two women, who were called deaconesses, to the torture, but I found nothing but a debased superstition carried to great lengths. So I postponed my examination, and immediately consulted you.


The matter seems to me worthy of your consideration, especially as there are so many people involved in the danger. Many persons of all ages, and of both sexes alike, are being brought into peril of their lives by their accusers, and the process will go on. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only through the free cities, but into the villages and the rural districts, and yet it seems to me that it can be checked and set right. It is beyond doubt that the temples, which have been almost deserted, are beginning again to be thronged with worshippers, that the sacred rites which have for a long time been allowed to lapse are now being renewed, and that the food for the sacrificial victims is once more finding a sale, whereas, up to recently, a buyer was hardly to be found. From this it is easy to infer what vast numbers of people might be reclaimed, if only they were given an opportunity of repentance.

(*) Pliny leaves it unclear whether the Christians were accused of a specific crime; it seems that to confess to being Christian was considered sufficient proof of guilt.

(**) Except by special delegation of the Emperor's own legal powers, no provincial governor had power to inflict the death penalty on a Roman citizen, but must allow him to take his trial at Rome.

(†) Or 'political societies'. The same word {hetaeriae} is used in relation to a guild of firemen, in letter 34 of this book.

(97) L Trajan to Pliny.

You have adopted the proper course, my dear Pliny, in examining into the cases of those who have been denounced to you as Christians, for no hard and fast rule can be laid down to meet a question of such wide extent. The Christians are not to be hunted out ; if they are brought before you and the offence is proved, they are to be punished, but with this reservation - that if any one denies that he is a Christian and makes it clear that he is not, by offering prayers to our deities, then he is to be pardoned because of his recantation, however suspicious his past conduct may have been. * But pamphlets published anonymously must not carry any weight whatever, no matter what the charge may be, for they are not only a precedent of the very worst type, but they are not in consonance with the spirit of our age.

(*) For an early Christian reaction to Trajan's decision, see Tertullian's 'Apology', chapter 2 (written in about 197 A.D.)

.

Thank you. A fair translation.....but no reference to the crucifixion.

In what way does Pliny support the Gospel narratives?

Peace.
 
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@muhammad_isa

Your whole previous argument has been that early Christians believed the death on the cross, but mistakenly?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Historicity of Jesus
The only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

According to New Testament scholar James Dunn, nearly all modern scholars consider the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion to be historically certain ...

Make of it what you will
I agree .. as does the Qur'an, imo.
It acknowledges that it seemed as though the Jews had got him successfully crucified.

As I've already stated .. the issue is more about Jesus' divinity and him "dying for sins"
That is why you are so madly intent on proving your case. Because your whole faith depends on it,
and you want to stay as you are. That's the impression that I have.
 
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