Who were the "Men of Old/Renown?"

Discussion in 'Ancient History and Mythology' started by Quahom1, Feb 2, 2005.

  1. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Here is something to ponder. Scripture speaks of the Nephilim, or "Men of Old" or "Men of Renown" (sons of God's offspring). They were giants of great strength and power. They were also called "Heroes of Old". I could be mistaken, but those type of terms are usually reserved for "ancient" people that we read about, or tell folk tales about.

    That said, and taking the most conservative of dates to show man's existence on Earth (biblically speaking), we surmise that Noah, was born about 123 years after the death of Adam (who lived about 930 years). That means that man was only around for 1553 years before the biblical flood. That also means that only 10 generations had passed between Adam and Noah. This also means that man has been around for about 6000 years to date, and that Adam was created around 4000 BC(E).

    1. If the flood occured around 2343 BC(E), when did the "Men of Old" come into existence? And how could they be considered "Old" (assuming that means older than the existing generations of humans at the time of the flood, which by the way, would include Adam's immediate children, many of whom would still be living)?

    2. Who were these "Heroes"? If one ignores the alien theory, and the decendents of Cain theory, one is left with the angel/human hybrid theory. The only other option I can think of would be a sort of natural form of "steroid" being consumed, which we know can create some very big and aggressive people today

    3. If, however, we rule out steroids and what not, and we accept that they are the result of visits by "sons of God" upon daughters of men, then would not people like Samson, and even Jesus be considered "Nephilim" (not being rude here, just pointing out that both men's mothers were visited by angels and shortly after those women were pregnant, and both men exhibited amazing superhuman abilities). Would not someone like Goliath and the Cannanites that frightened Israel's army with their tremendous size and strength be candidates for the title "Nephilim"? (logically speaking).

    4. Some may argue that angels are non corporial beings. I would say normally true, however, there have been times when angels assumed very physical bodies (Passover, the little wrestling match between Jacob and the angel, the guardian to the entrance of Eden, Lot's guests...).

    5. Also, since we know that energy can be manipulated into matter and vice versa, it does not seem outlandish that a being normally existing in an energy state could not have the ability to slow that energy down into matter, does it?

    One of the curious paradoxes here would be the very term "Nephilim" (the Fallen). That could mean fallen angel, or fallen man, but then there is the term "sons of God" and daughters of men...

    Finally, scripture clearly states that "man" will be raised from the dead for final judgement (whether good or evil), but the "Nephilim" are dead, and will never rise. Could it be that they had no "immortal spirit" to begin with?

    I have my own opinions, however, here I'm playing devil's advocate (pardon the pun). I'd like to know yours. :D

    v/r

    Q
     
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    I may be a little too eager to answer quickly here, but without checking my notes on this, I believe there's supposed to have been a pretty big ruckass about the Nephilim.

    The core issue is that Angels (Messengers of God) were supposed to be guiding humanity, but instead ended up getting up to all sorts of carnal mischief with us, resulting in the birth of human-angel hybrids.

    (My bad - I forget whether the Nephilim were the pregenitors or progeny, and all my notes on this are on a CD somewhere).

    Because of this series of events, the Nephilim get a big kick from God, and consigned to the Valley of Nephilim, where they will remain until Judgement Day.

    Now, the pieces of the story are extremely rich in symbolism, but poorly exploited - I'm truly surprised that I've not read anyone connecting the Fall of the Nephilim with the invention of Milton's War in Heaven - - - which could make for a darn good extra-biblical story.

    Anyway, an interesting aspect about the case is that Angels are not supposed to have Free Will - so why could the Angels disobey and creating human/angel hybrids if they had no Free Will? That's back to the entire "Satan rebellion" theological question.

    Perhaps that's the answer in point 5 - if the Angels have no Free Will then is there anything to resurrect??

    Anyway, I'll keep a look out for my notes - I have a lot of information on this saved, and nearly posted it all to the forum once.

    A couple of names in this topic for you to look out for: Book of Enoch, Azrael, Ben Elohim.

    Darn it, where are my notes!!
     
  3. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Progeny... I did not know however, that they were banned to a valley. I thought they were wiped out in the "great flood" of "43" (that is 2343 BCe).

    I also never heard that angels lacked free will, but that they could not appreciate the concept of being ransomed for (no concept of salvation).

    There is speculation that they appeared again after the flood and married human women again.

    I did read somewhere that originally the "angels" were supposed to be the "Watchers", but then came the rest of the story.

    I find it difficult to think that God would banish people who did not ask to be born the way they were (like they had a choice in being supermen), but then it is argued that He wet the whole joint down for awhile...

    v/r

    Q
     
  4. chary

    chary New Member

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    some human beings.
     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Welcome to CR Chary ;)

    The argument and/or speculation is that they were half human, half superhuman. Whether or not from other than two humans sprang this "race" of giants, they were in fact Giants (literally). They were tremendously strong, and most of our folklore (eg. Hercules, Atlas, Samson, Aries, Apollo, King Minos, the Minotaur, Tantalus, and of course, The Titans...), could be based on these allegedly "real" giants of old.

    Brian, I just realized something when remembering the old heroes...every last one of them had a fatal flaw, despite their tremendous powers. They all fell to arrogance and pride.

    And just like God destroying or banishing the Nephilim, "Zeus" destroyed or banished the Titans, in events that "shook" the world...

    things that make you go hmmmm...

    v/r

    Q
     
  6. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    If you start including the Greeks, though, you're effectively talking about Dorian's living in a world filled with old Mycenaen forts and strongholds - newcomers living among the ruins of giants. Great for feeding legends with.
     
  7. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    True, but whether any group is included or set apart but viewed side by side for similarities or other, the parrallelisms are a bit unsettling don't you think?

    v/r

    Q
     
  8. faithfull

    faithfull New Member

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    I'm truly surprised that I've not read anyone connecting the Fall of the Nephilim with the invention of Milton's War in Heaven - - - which could make for a darn good extra-biblical story.
    (quote brian)

    Rev. 12: 7
    document.write(drawVerse(7,104790));[​IMG]
    7&nbsp7 And there was awar in heaven: bMichael and his cangels fought against the dragon; and the ddragon fought and his angels,
    [​IMG]document.write(drawVerse(8,104791));[​IMG]8&nbsp8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in aheaven.
    [​IMG]document.write(drawVerse(9,104792));[​IMG]9&nbsp9 And the great dragon was acast• out, that old serpent, called the bDevil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    [​IMG]document.write(drawVerse(10,104793));[​IMG]10&nbsp10 And I heard a loud avoice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and bstrength, and the kingdom of our God, and the cpower of his Christ: for the daccuser• of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    [​IMG]document.write(drawVerse(11,104794));[​IMG]11&nbsp11 And they aovercame• him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their btestimony; and they loved not their lives unto the cdeath.

    THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

    SECTION 138
    56&nbsp56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first alessons in the world of spirits and were bprepared• to come forth in the due ctime• of the Lord to labor in his dvineyard• for the salvation of the souls of men
    SELECTIONS FROM THE
    BOOK OF MOSES

    CHAPTER 4
    (June—October 1830)

    How Satan became the devil—He tempts Eve—Adam and Eve fall and death enters the world. document.write(drawVerse(1,166015));[​IMG]1&nbsp1 AND I, the aLord• God, spake unto Moses, saying: That bSatan•, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the cbeginning•, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will dredeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely eI• will do it; wherefore fgive me thine honor.
    [​IMG]document.write(drawVerse(2,166016));[​IMG]2&nbsp2 But, behold, my Beloved aSon, which was my Beloved and bChosen• from the beginning, said unto me—cFather, thy dwill• be done, and the eglory• be thine forever.
    [​IMG]document.write(drawVerse(3,166017));[​IMG]3&nbsp3 Wherefore, because that aSatan brebelled• against me, and sought to destroy the cagency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be dcast• down;
    [​IMG]document.write(drawVerse(4,166018));[​IMG]4&nbsp4 And he became aSatan•, yea, even the bdevil, the father of all clies•, to ddeceive• and to blind men, and to lead them ecaptive at his will, even as many as would not fhearken unto my voice.
     
  9. farhan

    farhan New Member

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    Hi !

    Sorry if I missed anything . About nephilim , why cant the discription os Jinns fit here .



    As I have read , they were created before God created Adam . They used to live in their cities like we do . They usually are big ( around 12 feet ) but can change their size & form , because they arnt made of solids but hot gas . Since they R big , so they R very powerful too . All the demons & monsters arise from their realm . Satan is also one of them . B4 disobeying God , he was a pious Jin named Azazel .



    May be people in that time ( Noah's time ) were more spiritually enlightened to see things that we now arnt able to see . And with the passage of time their experiences/sayings became mythologies & now they incorporate so much fiction that they cant be seen as reality .



    Regards

    -Farhan
     
  10. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Welcome Rahan, to CR !

    If Angels fell (as a possibility to who are the sires of nephilim), why not Jin? Though Jin do not come from Muslim beliefs (right?), but from pre muslim beliefs, of the same land? Before Mohhamad, there were several gods within the Arabian penninsula, and Jins were part of that set of beliefs? yes?

    That does not detract from the possibility, just not from the monotheistic perspective of the Abramic faiths...what say you? ;)

    v/r

    Q
     
  11. farhan

    farhan New Member

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    Well according to Islamic belief , angels dont fall . They havent been given the freewill to disobey God's command . They R like software on hard drive , They take orders , think about it , & do as told . On the other hand Men & Jins R more like AI . They can choose not to obey God's commands . They take data from all sides & think what's more right for them , & obey their perception of the best . But the problem with their thinking pattern is that unlike angels , they have been given material bodies with material senses ( other than their spiritual senses & spitirual senses ) . Material senses that hide the ultimate realities from them , so they tend to judge the circumstances by their "non perfect" sences & according to their material carvings , & disobey the creater , who by the way , can never be wrong .



    I dont know much about the pre-islamic beliefs of Arabian peninsula , but where I live ( Indian sub-continent ) here we have an ancient culture of enslaving Jins & Fairies by some sort of magic/meditation thing . Though very dangerous , but some people manage to do it . I havent seen a man who succeeded in doing so , only heard about them , but have met people who failed . Most of them developed Schizophernia , Parkinson , Alzimer , Epilepsy or Paralysis sort of diseases . Though enslaving them is not a part of Islamic culture , since Scholars/Sufis forbade any such practice saying " they have the right to live freely as we humans do ".

    About the arabian culture , most of it started after Abraham , though there were other nations living there before him , but they didnt exist uptil the time of Mohammad . According to Islam , Abraham & Ishmael had been given books by Allah . And there is a possibility that the concept of Jin were discussed in them . Since there were no prophets send in the arabian nation after Ishmael uptil Mohammad , so most possibly the people there paganized the teachings of Abraham , creating Allah's wives , sons , daughters & a whole set of sub-ordinate deities , into which they included angels , jins , their ancestors , stars (most importantly Sirius ) , sun , moon , & other idols .



    Well Jins R also a creation of God . So I dont see it contradicting with monotheism . Because Jin or no Jin , God is always there , the one , the only , the all powerful . And since I have got problem with falling of angels , & since Satan was a Jin who ascended to heavens due to his piety & then fell , so the best option left for me ( if we exclude the " Super intelligent aliens from planet Neibru " theory of Zecheria Sitchin ) is to think of the Nephilim in Genesis as Jins .

    regards

    -farhan
     
  12. farhan

    farhan New Member

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    Well according to Islamic belief , angels dont fall . They havent been given the freewill to disobey God's command . They R like software on hard drive , They take orders , think about it , & do as told . On the other hand Men & Jins R more like AI . They can choose not to obey God's commands . They take data from all sides & think what's more right for them , & obey their perception of the best . But the problem with their thinking pattern is that unlike angels , they have been given material bodies with material senses ( other than their spiritual senses & spitirual senses ) . Material senses that hide the ultimate realities from them , so they tend to judge the circumstances by their "non perfect" sences & according to their material carvings , & disobey the creater , who by the way , can never be wrong .



    I dont know much about the pre-islamic beliefs of Arabian peninsula , but where I live ( Indian sub-continent ) here we have an ancient culture of enslaving Jins & Fairies by some sort of magic/meditation thing . Though very dangerous , but some people manage to do it . I havent seen a man who succeeded in doing so , only heard about them , but have met people who failed . Most of them developed Schizophernia , Parkinson , Alzimer , Epilepsy or Paralysis sort of diseases . Though enslaving them is not a part of Islamic culture , since Scholars/Sufis forbade any such practice saying " they have the right to live freely as we humans do ".

    About the arabian culture , most of it started after Abraham , though there were other nations living there before him , but they didnt exist uptil the time of Mohammad . According to Islam , Abraham & Ishmael had been given books by Allah . And there is a possibility that the concept of Jin were discussed in them . Since there were no prophets send in the arabian nation after Ishmael uptil Mohammad , so most possibly the people there paganized the teachings of Abraham , creating Allah's wives , sons , daughters & a whole set of sub-ordinate deities , into which they included angels , jins , their ancestors , stars (most importantly Sirius ) , sun , moon , & other idols .



    Well Jins R also a creation of God . So I dont see it contradicting with monotheism . Because Jin or no Jin , God is always there , the one , the only , the all powerful . And since I have got problem with falling of angels , & since Satan was a Jin who ascended to heavens due to his piety & then fell , so the best option left for me ( if we exclude the " Super intelligent aliens from planet Neibru " theory of Zecheria Sitchin ) is to think of the Nephilim in Genesis as Jins .

    regards

    -farhan
     
  13. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Now that is an interesting twist (or take)! Jins, as opposed to Angels. Lucifer you believe is a Jin, as opposed to a former Arch angel?

    I would like to hear more on this, if you have time.

    Thank you Farhan! :D

    v/r

    Q
     
  14. farhan

    farhan New Member

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    here are some Quranic verses about the event



    2:30-38

    30. And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know."

    31. And He taught Adam all the names (of everything), then He showed them to the angels and said, "Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful."

    32. They (angels) said: "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what you have taught us. Verily, it is You, the All-Knower, the All-Wise."

    33. He said: "O Adam! Inform them of their names," and when he had informed them of their names, He said: "Did I not tell you that I know the (unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing?"

    34. And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam.". And they prostrated except Iblîs (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allâh).

    35. And We said: "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the wrong-doers."

    36. Then the Shaitân (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time."

    37. Then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.

    38. We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.



    7:11-28

    11. And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblîs (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate.

    12. (Allâh) said: "What prevented you (O Iblîs) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblîs said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay."

    13. (Allâh) said: "(O Iblîs) get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out, for you are of those humiliated and disgraced."

    14. (Iblîs) said: "Allow me respite till the Day they are raised up (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)."

    15. (Allâh) said: "You are of those allowed respite."

    16. (Iblîs) said: "Because You have sent me astray, surely I will sit in wait against them (human beings) on Your Straight Path.

    17. Then I will come to them from before them and behind them, from their right and from their left, and You will not find most of them as thankful ones (i.e. they will not be dutiful to You)."

    18. (Allâh) said (to Iblîs) "Get out from this (Paradise) disgraced and expelled. Whoever of them (mankind) will follow you, then surely I will fill Hell with you all."

    19. "And O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in Paradise, and eat thereof as you both wish, but approach not this tree otherwise you both will be of the Zâlimûn (unjust and wrong­doers)."

    20. Then Shaitân (Satan) whispered suggestions to them both in order to uncover that which was hidden from them of their private parts (before); he said: "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save you should become angels or become of the immortals."

    21. And he [Shaitân (Satan)] swore by Allâh to them both (saying): "Verily, I am one of the sincere well­wishers for you both."

    22. So he misled them with deception. Then when they tasted of the tree, that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifest to them and they began to stick together the leaves of Paradise over themselves (in order to cover their shame). And their Lord called out to them (saying): "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you: Verily, Shaitân (Satan) is an open enemy unto you?"

    23. They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers."

    24. (Allâh) said: "Get down, one of you an enemy to the other [i.e. Adam, Hawwa (Eve), and Shaitân (Satan), etc.]. On earth will be a dwelling­place for you and an enjoyment, - for a time."

    25. He said: "Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out (i.e.resurrected)."

    26. O Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover yourselves (screen your private parts, etc.) and as an adornment, and the raiment of righteousness, that is better. Such are among the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, that they may remember (i.e. leave falsehood and follow truth).

    27. O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitân (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents [Adam and Hawwa (Eve)] out of Paradise, stripping them of their raiments, to show them their private parts. Verily, he and Qabîluhu (his soldiers from the jinns or his tribe) see you from where you cannot see them. Verily, We made the Shayâtin (devils) Auliyâ' (protectors and helpers) for those who believe not.



    15:26-42

    26. And indeed, We created man from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.

    27. And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.

    28. And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.

    29. "So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him."

    30. So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together.

    31. Except Iblîs (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators.

    32. (Allâh) said: "O Iblîs (Satan)! What is your reason for not being among the prostrators?"

    33. [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "I am not the one to prostrate myself to a human being, whom You created from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud."

    34. (Allâh) said: "Then, get out from here, for verily, you are Rajîm (an outcast or a cursed one)." [Tafsîr At-Tabarî]

    35. "And verily, the curse shall be upon you till the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)."

    36. [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day they (the dead) will be resurrected."

    37. Allâh said: "Then, verily, you are of those reprieved,

    38. "Till the Day of the time appointed."

    39. [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me, I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead them all.

    40. "Except Your chosen, (guided) slaves among them."

    41. (Allâh) said: "This is the Way which will lead straight to Me."

    42. "Certainly, you shall have no authority over My slaves, except those who follow you of the Ghâwîn (Mushrikûn and those who go astray, criminals, polytheists, and evil-doers, etc.).



    20:116-124

    116. And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblîs (Satan), who refused.

    117. Then We said: "O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife. So let him not get you both out of Paradise, so that you be distressed in misery.

    118. Verily, you have (a promise from Us) that you will never be hungry therein nor naked.

    119. And you (will) suffer not from thirst therein nor from the sun's heat.

    120. Then Shaitân (Satan) whispered to him, saying : "O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that will never waste away?"

    121. Then they both ate of the tree, and so their private parts appeared to them, and they began to stick on themselves the leaves from Paradise for their covering. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray.

    122. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance.

    123. (Allâh) said:"Get you down (from the Paradise to the earth), both of you, together, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then if there comes to you guidance from Me, then whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.



    38:71-85

    71. (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay".

    72. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him."

    73. So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them:

    74. Except Iblîs (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers.

    75. (Allâh) said: "O Iblîs (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?"

    76. [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "I am better than he, You created me from fire, and You created him from clay."

    77. (Allâh) said: "Then get out from here, for verily, you are outcast.

    78. "And verily!, My Curse is on you till the Day of Recompense."

    79. [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "My Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are resurrected."

    80. (Allâh) said: "Verily! You are of those allowed respite

    81. "Till the Day of the time appointed."

    82. [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "By Your Might, then I will surely mislead them all,

    83. "Except Your chosen slaves amongst them (faithful, obedient, true believers of Islâmic Monotheism)."

    84. (Allâh) said: "The Truth is, and the Truth I say,

    85. That I will fill Hell with you [Iblîs (Satan)] and those of them (mankind) that follow you, together."
     
  15. farhan

    farhan New Member

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    This was according to the Quranic verses. Other that that what I posted before was most probably from Sufi sayings.

    Since there are different stories associated with the English names , so I’ll stick with Arabic names . The story goes like this



    After the God had created heaven & earth & angels , he created Jins from fire , & they used to live on earth , or somewhere above it , there is another sphere surrounding the sphere of Earth where we live . They obeyed Allah in the beginning but after sometime they started disobeying him . When Mischief spread all over their race Allah sent angels in the command of Jibraiel & Mikaaiel to destroy every jin who was disobedient. In that attack both the parents of one kid Jin named Azazeel were killed & Jibraiel thought how this child will survive . So he asked the permission of Allah to bring him to the skies. The permission was granted & Azazeel was taken to the skies where he lived & learnt a lot of things with the angels .One day he thought that I should go to earth & see what is happening to my race & live with them . He asked Allah & Allah said the he can live in both Earth & the skies . So he lived happily with the best of Jins on earth & the most honorable of angels in the skies & was close friends with Jibraiel & Mikaaiel .



    Many days ( or years or centuries ) went by & then the day came when Allah made Adam , & the rest happened as described in Quranic verses .


    regards
    -farhan
     
  16. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, all!

    Welcome to CR farhan! I appreciate your contribution here, it does shed a little different light on the subject. I know very little of Jinns, only the popularized myths concerning "genies". Thank you. :)

    Quahom, I don't have my Bible handy in front of me, but I have wondered on this subject before as well. Seems I recall that a big part of the reason God initially flooded the earth in Noah's time was because of the influx of nephilim/human hybrids. I also seem to recall the Bible stating that a fresh or continuing influx began after the flood, which gave rise to the race of giants that included Goliath at a later date. I have also heard it said that the wars the Israelites fought coming out of the wilderness of Sinai were predominantly against this "fallen" race. I seem to recall mention of the iron bedstead of Og, one of their kings, being in existence at some time in the history of Israel, probably as some form of reminder.

    I also recall New Testament prophecy that seems to hint at a resurgence of the nephilim/human hybrid population towards the end of this age. That "angels" once again (if not always) will mate with humans. Scary stuff.

    In looking for myths concerning giants, I haven't found anything archeologically to support the stories directly. But I have stumbled on a couple of folktales that hint at giants living among humans. Supposedly during the time of King Authur, one of his chief allies was a man known as Lord Cornwell, who it is said used to hunt giants for sport in the south of England. Another story I read claimed a burial chamber deep in a cave in the Himalayas that contained the bodies of a father, mother and son, all of whom were well over ten feet tall.

    An interesting side note concerns the writer Jules Verne. I find it interesting that most all of his stories, which were pure fantasy when he wrote them over a hundred years ago, have come true in some form. Like Submarines and Moon landings. He based his stories on the known sciences of his day. The only story I am aware of that has not come true, is "Journey to the Center of the Earth." Yet, in that story he relates to a race of giants. Since his speculations were based on science of the day, and many things in that story are supported by geology and fossil findings, I cannot help but wonder from what he drew his idea of giants.

    Giants have a significance in the human psyche. Myths like "Jack and the beanstalk" keep the significance alive to us, generation after generation. And since myth does not necessarily mean "false," (that is, truths are sometimes painted over with myth), I cannot help but wonder if the concept of giants and all they represent have some basis in fact, and not merely a symbolic representation of something significant to our collective psyche. Farhan's contribution shows me the "myths" of giants reach beyond Western or Christian folklore, as the Himalaya story already showed me the reach into Buddhism. I wonder if Vaj might have anything to add towards this discussion?
     
  17. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, all!

    Just catching up on a couple of points. :)
    Possibly before the creation of Adam and Eve, that is, the sixth day creation.

    Why must these "theories" be ignored, if one really wishes to play devil's advocate? Could it not be, Biblically speaking, that any or all of these are compatible with each other? I have heard it said that the root word for alien, meaning stranger, is the same root used for angel, meaning messenger. As for the Kenites, is it only that Cain had intermarried and had children outside of his race that is cause for concern? Or perhaps that his (Cain's) father was one of those "men of renown," that the serpent seduced Eve in every sense of the word, which is why Cain's geneology is not included in the descendants of Adam?

    Yes. They were and are.

    You bring up a good question. However, something tells me it is not an easy thing to accomplish, stepping across the boundary and interacting. In other words, I don't think spirit beings on the whole are capable of crossing the boundary at will. Only some very powerful ones, and even they are limited. Their offspring, however, are in this realm, and (strictly guessing) perhaps provide a vehicle for such a spirit to occupy.

    Or, that spirit has already been judged to death, but the sentence has yet to be carried out.
     
  18. kayleyroze

    kayleyroze New Member

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    This Is Appendix 25 From The Companion Bible.
    [font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam (see notes on Genesis 6, and Appendix 23 are called in Genesis 6, N[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1] e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]-phil´-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall). What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture. They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah's Word (Genesis 3:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]).
    This was why the Flood was brouhgt "upon the world of the ungodly" ([/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Peter 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]).
    But we read of the N[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]philim again in Numbers 13:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] : "there we saw the N[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]philim, the sons of Anak, which come of the N[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]philim". How, it may be asked, could this be, if they were all destroyed in the Flood ? The answer is contained in Genesis 6:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1], where we read: "There were N[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]philim in the earth in those days (that is to say, in the days of Noah); and also AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became [the] mighty men (Hebrew gibbor, the heroes) which were of old, men of renown" (literally, men of the name, that is to say, who got a name and were renowned for their ungodliness).
    So that "after that", that is to say, after the Flood, there was a second irruption of these fallen angels, evidently smaller in number and more limited in area, for they were for the most part confined to Canaan, and were in fact known as "the nations of Canaan". It was for the destruction of these, that the sword of Israel was necessary, as the Flood had been before.
    As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Genesis 12:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated: "The Canaanite was then (that is to say, already) in the land." And in Genesis 14:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] they were already known as "Rephaim" and "Emim", and had established themselves as Ashteroth Karnaim and Shaveh Kiriathaim.
    In chapter 15:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18-21[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples: "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites" (Genesis 15:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19-21[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; compare Exodus 3:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8,17[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 23:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]23[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Deuteronomy 7; 20:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Joshua 12:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]).
    These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deuteronomy 20:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Joshua 3:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]). But Israel failed in this (Joshua 13:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 15:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]63[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 17:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Judges 1:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19,20,28,29,30-36[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 3:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-7[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]); and we know not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology.
    As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from one Anak which came of the N[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]philim (Numbers 13:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]22,33[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]), and R[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]phaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them.
    From Deuteronomy 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1], they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (verse [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20,21[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]) and Avim, etc.
    As R[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]phaim they were well known, and are often mentioned: but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as "dead", "deceased", or "giants". These R[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]phaim are to have no resurrection. This fact is stated in Isaiah 26:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] (where the proper name is rendered "deceased", and verse [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1], where it is rendered "the dead").
    It is rendered "dead" seven times (Job 26:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Psalm 88:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Proverbs 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 9:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 21:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]16[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Isaiah 14:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 26:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]).
    It is rendered "deceased" in Isaiah 26:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1].
    It is retained as proper name "R[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]phaim" ten times (two being in the margin). Genesis 14:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 15:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Joshua 12:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] (margin). [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Samuel 5:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18,22[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 23:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Chronicles 11:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 14:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]9[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 20:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] (margin). Isaiah 17:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1].
    In all other places it is rendered "giants" , Genesis 6:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1], Numbers 23:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1], where it is N[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]philim; and Job 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1], where it is gibbor (Appendix 14. iv).
    By reading all these passages the Bible student may know all that can be known about these beings.
    It is certain that the second irruption took place before Genesis 14, for there the R[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]phaim were mixed up with the five nations or peoples, which included Sodom and Gomorrha, and were defeated by the four kings under Chedorlaomer. Their principal locality was evidently "Ashtaroth Karnaim"; while the Emim were in the plain of Kiriathaim (Genesis 14:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]).
    [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]

    sorry but i'll have to put this on 2 posts:(
    [/size][/font]
     
  19. kayleyroze

    kayleyroze New Member

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    Part 2....................


    Anak was a noted descendant of the N[font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]philim; and Rapha was another, giving their names respectively to different clans. Anak's father was Arba, the original builder of Hebron (Genesis 35:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]27[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Joshau 15:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 21:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]); and this Palestine branch of the Anakim was not called Abrahim after him, but Anakim after Anak. They were great, mighty, and tall (Deuteronomy 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10,11,21,22,23[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 9:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]), evidently inspiring the ten spies with great fear (Numbers 12:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]). Og king of Bashan is described in Deuteronomy 3:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]).
    Their strength is seen in "the giant cities of Bashan" to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem.
    Arba was rebuilt by the Khabiri or confederates seven years before Zoan was built by Egyptian Pharoahs of the nineteenth dynasty. See note on Numbers 13:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]22[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1].
    If these N[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]philim, and their branch of R[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]phaim, were associated with Egypt, we have an explanation of the problem which has for ages perplexed all engineers, as to how those huge stones and monuments were brought together. Why not in Egypt as well as in "the giant cities of Bashan" which exist, as such, to this day?
    Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Genesis 6:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks.
    Thus the Babylonian "Creation Tablets", the Egyptian "Book of the dead", the Greek mythology, and heathen Comogonies, which by some are set on an equality with Scripture, or by others adduced in support of it, are all the corruption and perversion of primitive truths, distorded in proportion as their origin was forgotten, and their memories faded away.[/size][/font]


    It sounds like the Nephilim could have been the gods of Greek and Egyptian mythology.;)
     
  20. Chalice

    Chalice I am the Grail

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    Read the text and you will find that there were three races - the offspring of the "Sons of God" and the earth women, who became the "men of renown/heoroes of old; the mortal men; and the "nephilim"/giants. The only ones the TEXT defines as evil were the mortal men, not the heroes of old, or the giants.

    The Giants are listed only to give the story a time frame. Today we would give a date, like 1992, or 1865, but this society did not have this, so they identified their era with something significant that they could identify - they lived in the time when the nephilim/giants lived. The text never states that the giants were evil, or what they were, they could have been the Titans, or dinosaurs.

    Noah's fathers geanology is given in Genesis 5, and then the "Sons of God" descendents who are the heroes of old/men of renown are told of. Noah is a man of renown, a heroe of old, isn't he? This is why this family history of the "Sons of God" and earth women are listed since the time "of Adam" in this text - it is Noah's OTHER geanology, his mother's family history!

    Because Noah survived, and we descend from him, we are also descended from these "Sons of God" who were never ever listed as evil in the text!

    Noah and his family were rememberd as a pantheon after the tower of Bable, when the languages divided and the earth split during the life of peleg. That is why the Teutons and the Greeks both have a pantheon that lives upon a mountain top in a temple home: the Ark doubled as a worship place where Noah made a sacrifice according to the Biblical text, as well as their home. Atlantis, the perfect society where everyone had miraculous powers, probibally developed from the Noahide, post-alluval society as well, and eventually the entire world remembered Noah, his wife, and their children as the pantheons of the world.

    If you get a good fat book on world mythology, carefully read the Biblical text of Genesis 5,6,7, and 8, and Get Strong's Exhaustive Concordance so you can look up important words like nephilim/giants, you will see that I am right, and that we descend from Noah, who had heavenly and earthly parentage. God only destroyed the "mortal men" who descended from Adam and Eve and inherited the full capacity to sin. Noah turned on his miraculous powers by "walking with God" according tothe Text, and Christ, who existed as Jehovah/Eloheme in the OT instructed believers in him that IF we believe in him, will have "greater" powers than he himself had while upon earth! I think that faith in God through Christ is the "key" to turning back on our "Sons of God" powers that cause supernatural miracles to happen. I am glad others are thinking about this story as well.
     

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