Who is familiar with Perennialism?

This comment only makes my theosophical side more curious about what you know about esoteric christianity that I don't.
I know there's no such thing.

The idea of 'esoteric Christianity' (Theosophists are not alone in this, it's an adopted the idea) is false.

It presupposes a second, secret current of Christian teaching quite apart and separate from the exoteric dogmatic teaching of the Church. It supposes two churches, one the Petrine visible (exoteric) church and the other Johannine invisible (esoteric) church – throughout history certain groups have claimed the inheritance of and access to this Johannine teaching. Their validation is usually based on the words of Jesus to his mother and John at the foot of the cross:
"Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." (John 19:26-27).

Christian esoterism is according to the very nature of things. Every authentic Tradition has its esoterism, but these are never distinct from the orthodox revelation, nor could they be.

Since the esoteric christianity of the theosophical society is a bit lacking (if one wants to serve the whole of humanity), I have dwelled into antroposophy as well looking for more profound esoteric christianity. What do you make of Rudolf Steiner?
I never really researched into Steiner. I tend to keep a distance from what I regard as a Romance Era in the wake of the overt rationalism of the Enlightenment and the dehumanising of the Industrial Revolution – so the emergence of the Theosophical Society, The Golden Dawn, Anthroposophy, Crowley, The Society for Psychic Research, Spiritism and Spiritualism all comes from this current ... as does Dracula, Frankenstein, Jekyll and Hyde, the writings of Arthur Machen, W.B. Yeats, Algernon Blackwood ... and a general bourgeois pursuit of the esoteric and the occult, of Egypt, India, etc., etc.

In short, so rich, and so much, so diverse and so much ... I bypassed it.

Having said that, I have read and studied Valentin Tomberrg, anonymously famous for Meditations on the Tarot, a Journey into Christian Hermeticism – I believe Tomberg was regarded as Steiner's successor until he upset the anthroposophy applecart by converting to Catholicism.
 
Above all, it was the spiritual luminescence, the intellectual rigour and the profound regard for Revealed Tradition of the Traditionalists that won me over. They were, and still are, a sense-check reference for me when discussing all t hings metaphysical and esoteric.

Marco Pallis' commentary on the misunderstanding of the Tibetan Buddhist view of reincarnation I take as a benchmark, and I have presented it here before (I'm trying to find the threads!) ... what he, and René Guénon made clear is the failure to understand the implication of the doctrine. I'm afraid I'm quite anti-HPB and Theosophy on this point, their teaching on reincarnation evidences to me how little they understood the original teachings they plundered.

In the spiritual realms there are the forms and the formless. The forms are 'exoteric' in their own domain, they are the visible body as such. Hebrew Scripture understood this profoundly, and common Christianity, adopting too much of the influence of Hellenic dualism, fails to comprehend just how much so.

Without going into detail, there is no esoteric without its exoteric counterpart, and vice versa. The esoteric might be obscured by the exoteric, but it is nonetheless there to the discerning eye, whereas the esoteric does not and cannot be perceived apart from its exoteric form precisely because the esoteric is not so much an object of knowledge as an illumination of it ... the esoteric in that sense is formless, but it shapes and shapes itself to its exoteric counterpart. Without it, the esoteric is not perceived, nor is it perceptible.

This is the fundamental error of the Theosophical Movement, and of other movements who assume the stance of a kind of über-religion or meta-religion, a religion that transcends all other religions and speaks for all of them.

In fact any body that declares it speaks for the esoteric, apart and other than the exoteric form, flags up alarms, as far as I am concerned.

It is axiomatic to the Traditionalists that each religion comprises, entire and uncorrupt (albeit out of reach of the modern mind), all that is necessary to know and do to attain the promise of that Revelation. If there is a 'flaw' or a 'problem' with a religion, it's with the viewer, not the viewed.

Having said that, the Trads are not infallible. Frithjof Schuon got himself embroiled in a scandalous mess in America, René Guénon, loyal to his Hindu teachers, regarded Buddhism as a kind of 'Hindu heresy' until put right by Marco Pallis (a Tibetan Buddhist) and Martin Lings (like Schuon and Guénon, a Sufi). Both S. and G. were critical of Christianity, but their views have been countered by the likes of the Traditionalists Jean Borella (Catholic) and Philip Sherrard (Greek Orthodox).
 
Above all, it was the spiritual luminescence, the intellectual rigour and the profound regard for Revealed Tradition of the Traditionalists that won me over. They were, and still are, a sense-check reference for me when discussing all t hings metaphysical and esoteric.

Marco Pallis' commentary on the misunderstanding of the Tibetan Buddhist view of reincarnation I take as a benchmark, and I have presented it here before (I'm trying to find the threads!) ... what he, and René Guénon made clear is the failure to understand the implication of the doctrine. I'm afraid I'm quite anti-HPB and Theosophy on this point, their teaching on reincarnation evidences to me how little they understood the original teachings they plundered.

In the spiritual realms there are the forms and the formless. The forms are 'exoteric' in their own domain, they are the visible body as such. Hebrew Scripture understood this profoundly, and common Christianity, adopting too much of the influence of Hellenic dualism, fails to comprehend just how much so.

Without going into detail, there is no esoteric without its exoteric counterpart, and vice versa. The esoteric might be obscured by the exoteric, but it is nonetheless there to the discerning eye, whereas the esoteric does not and cannot be perceived apart from its exoteric form precisely because the esoteric is not so much an object of knowledge as an illumination of it ... the esoteric in that sense is formless, but it shapes and shapes itself to its exoteric counterpart. Without it, the esoteric is not perceived, nor is it perceptible.

This is the fundamental error of the Theosophical Movement, and of other movements who assume the stance of a kind of über-religion or meta-religion, a religion that transcends all other religions and speaks for all of them.

In fact any body that declares it speaks for the esoteric, apart and other than the exoteric form, flags up alarms, as far as I am concerned.

It is axiomatic to the Traditionalists that each religion comprises, entire and uncorrupt (albeit out of reach of the modern mind), all that is necessary to know and do to attain the promise of that Revelation. If there is a 'flaw' or a 'problem' with a religion, it's with the viewer, not the viewed.

Having said that, the Trads are not infallible. Frithjof Schuon got himself embroiled in a scandalous mess in America, René Guénon, loyal to his Hindu teachers, regarded Buddhism as a kind of 'Hindu heresy' until put right by Marco Pallis (a Tibetan Buddhist) and Martin Lings (like Schuon and Guénon, a Sufi). Both S. and G. were critical of Christianity, but their views have been countered by the likes of the Traditionalists Jean Borella (Catholic) and Philip Sherrard (Greek Orthodox).
Ok. Thank you for presenting your view on the matter. Its okay. I'm not anti anyone or anything except maybe extreme views that are racist or that are discriminating against human rights. Its just interesting to hear out others opinions. Right now I am gardening outside in the sunshine so I'm a bit busy. But I hope you have a wonderful day. 🌞🌸🙏
 
A quick comment here, to set the record straight:

I said:
"Frithjof Schuon got himself embroiled in a scandalous mess in America... "
This, apparently, is over-stepping the case. There was an accusation made, but the investigation showed there was no proof and no supporting testimony from those who were present at the time. It turned out the plaintiff had a grudge against Schuon and others, and furthermore had been criticised for making false statements previously, in another similar affair in California.
 
And not just Rene Guernon. A few years back, on a certain rival forum, any mention of Theosophy would get their Buddhists going for your throat. Online Buddhists can be much more vicious than their real-life counterparts.
Wow! I don't think I've ever dealt with angry, rageful Buddhists.
I've been acquainted with people who are interested in Buddhism or even describe themselves as Buddhists.
However, I've never had long philosophical talks with them either.
I mean though, I've even encountered rude, agitated self-described Deists so... I think any challenges to deeply held beliefs gets some people going
 
I know there's no such thing.

The idea of 'esoteric Christianity' (Theosophists are not alone in this, it's an adopted the idea) is false.

It presupposes a second, secret current of Christian teaching quite apart and separate from the exoteric dogmatic teaching of the Church. It supposes two churches, one the Petrine visible (exoteric) church and the other Johannine invisible (esoteric) church – throughout history certain groups have claimed the inheritance of and access to this Johannine teaching. Their validation is usually based on the words of Jesus to his mother and John at the foot of the cross:
"Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." (John 19:26-27).

Christian esoterism is according to the very nature of things. Every authentic Tradition has its esoterism, but these are never distinct from the orthodox revelation, nor could they be.


I never really researched into Steiner. I tend to keep a distance from what I regard as a Romance Era in the wake of the overt rationalism of the Enlightenment and the dehumanising of the Industrial Revolution – so the emergence of the Theosophical Society, The Golden Dawn, Anthroposophy, Crowley, The Society for Psychic Research, Spiritism and Spiritualism all comes from this current ... as does Dracula, Frankenstein, Jekyll and Hyde, the writings of Arthur Machen, W.B. Yeats, Algernon Blackwood ... and a general bourgeois pursuit of the esoteric and the occult, of Egypt, India, etc., etc.

In short, so rich, and so much, so diverse and so much ... I bypassed it.

Having said that, I have read and studied Valentin Tomberrg, anonymously famous for Meditations on the Tarot, a Journey into Christian Hermeticism – I believe Tomberg was regarded as Steiner's successor until he upset the anthroposophy applecart by converting to Catholicism.
Mark 4:34 and possibly other verses allude to Jesus having some secret teachings only for his disciples. The existence of the Gospel of Thomas is sometimes said to refer to secret teachings. And the Rosicrucians at least used to be referred to as a kind of esoteric Christianity.
Are these misunderstandings? What is your take on them?
 
Mark 4:34 and possibly other verses allude to Jesus having some secret teachings only for his disciples.
True, but then in Scripture Jesus does go on to explain the parable.

And I would also throw in that Christianity was a Christian Liturgy before the New Testament was written ... if you want to look for Christian esoterism, that's the place to start.

The Perennialist Frithjof Schuon regarded Christianity as 'an esoterism in plain sight' – he once said that Christianity was meant to, and should have remained, an initiatic school within Judaism. Not quite sure how well that would have worked, but I can see his point. I personally think the loss of a certain Hebraic holistic understanding, eclipsed by Hellenic dualism, has cost us dearly.

But in the esoteric schools, the transmission of secrets is to do with instruction and entrance into the school via initiatic rites – and baptism and Eucharist are exactly that.

From the beginning, Christians spoke freely about baptism and the Eucharist to anyone who cared to listen.

Around the 3rd century emerges the disciplina arcani. This emerges slowly, because at the same time in the latin west Tertullian (in Carthage, N Africa) believed that Christian teachings were public and should be taught in public. Origen of Alexandria replied openly to Celsus' anti-Christian polemics, and Celsus accused Christianity of being a religion of secrecy like the Greco-Roman mysteries, and Origen replied that while the prominent doctrines of Christianity are well-known to the entire world, including the virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection, punishment of the wicked and rewarding of the just, there are a few elements that must be retained within the group.

The 3rd and 4th centuries were the highpoint of the disciplina arcani, there are mentions in recoded sermons of “the initiated know”. “The initiated” is characteristic, and the transference of the phraseology of the mysteries into the Church is evident. “To initiate” (Gk. myeisthai) and “to instruct” (katēcheisthai) become interchangeable terms. Baptism is 'the seal of the mystic perfection' and 'a mystic purification (katharmos)' The Lord’s Supper is “the mystery", its elements are 'symbols'. “To be initiated” (mystagōgeisthai) signifies to be competent to partake of the sacraments, and to betray the mysteries is expressed by the corresponding exorcheisthai.

Around this time, Hippolytus of Rome wrote (regarding baptism):
If anything needs to be explained, let the bishop speak in private to those who have received baptism. Those who are not Christians are not told unless they first receive baptism. This is the white stone in which John spoke of; "A new name is written on it which no one knows except him who receives the stone. (Ap. Trad. 23:14)

By the fifth century, the disciplina arcani had become universal, mentioned in Rome, Jerusalem, Egypt, Constantinople, Cappadocia and North Africa.

Theologians echoed the words of Christ: "Give not that which holy to dogs; neither cast your pearls before swine; lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you" (Matthew 7:6).

It's probably the case that in various persecutions, Christian teachings were distorted and used against them – the Eucharist, for example, was said to cannibalism.

St. Paul called his Corinthian congregation "little ones in Christ", giving them "milk to drink, not meat", because they were not yet able to bear it (1 Corinthians 3:1-2). There are similar sentiments in Hebrews 5:12-14: "solid food is for the perfect; for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil."

The practice seems to have faded away with the cessation of persecution. By the sixth century, with the Faith established and secure, the need of such a discipline was no longer felt, and it seems to pass away.

In my own parish, it was a common practice for the catechumen, those undergoing instruction prior to baptism, were present at mass but led out of the church just before the Liturgy of the Eucharist (about the half-way point) – traditionally there was the Mass of the Faithful and Mass of the Catechumens. In Oriental liturgies, the deacon often proclaims, "The doors, the doors!" to signal that the doors must be watched to prevent unbaptised from participating in church activities.

I have gone on before about St Augustine's Homily to the Catechumen (227) is Christian esoterism writ large and loud –
“If you receive the Eucharist well, you are what you eat. Since you are the Body of Christ and his members, it is your mystery which you receive... Be what you see. Receive what you already are.”

Today the catechumen are usually children. After baptism and Holy Communion, instruction stops. In the Traditional Church, once baptised, the catechumen enters the mystagogia, the Mysteries – that instruction rarely happens nowadays. A great pity.

The existence of the Gospel of Thomas is sometimes said to refer to secret teachings.
Here's the thing. If there is an 'esoteric Christianity' then where does it come from, what are the lines of transmission, and who is in receipt of it today.

The Gospel of Thomas is no doubt ancient, and no doubt contains some sayings of Christ, but its message is unique unto itself – it is not an orthodox gospel compared to the Four, nor is it really 'Gnostic' in that its cosmology is different from the common cosmological elements of the gnostic schools of the time. It is of great historical interest, and a snapshot of a period about which we know so little ... but is it an authentic Christian esoteric document ... a) I don't think so and b) who the heck understands it, if it is?

And the Rosicrucians at least used to be referred to as a kind of esoteric Christianity.
Are these misunderstandings? What is your take on them?
I think at various points in European history there blossoms forth a renewed interest in the 'mysteries' of old.

The Early Modern period saw profound change in European culture. The emergence of science as a formal practice, and the beginnings of secularised society. The emergence of capitalism and mercantilism. Alongside this, a decline and eventual disappearance of feudalism and serfdom (in W Europe, at least).

The Protestant Reformation had staggering impact on the religious outlook of Christendom, notably a de-mystification – gone were saints and stained glass and any element of 'popish superstition' (it's no surprise that the emergence of a paranoia about witchcraft was particular to the Protestant states – we need our myths and rites of passage).

It was also a time of dreadful wars that engulfed W Europe and saw the populations reduced dramatically, so no surprise then there was a rebirth of a certain Romanticism harkening back to a Golden Age.

Rosicrucianism emerges in the 17th century with the publication of several texts announcing to the world a thitherto unknown esoteric order, publishing manifestos promising a "universal reformation of mankind" through a science "built on esoteric truths of the ancient past", which, "concealed from the average man, provide insight into nature, the physical universe, and the spiritual realm", which they say had been kept secret until the intellectual climate might receive it.

The manifestos are a mix of Kabbala and Hermeticism, alchemy and Christian mysticism, appealing to the culture-starved intellectuals of the period. The promise of a 'spiritual transformation' at a time of great threat, fear and turmoil, was eagerly embraced.

The same thing happened in the late 19th/20th century, as a reaction against the dehumanising of the Industrial Revolution, WW1, etc., there is the emergence of Gothic literature, the Art of the Sublime, and a blossoming of new esoteric orders ....

Then again, in the 60's, post WW2 and the Bomb, we have the New Age ...
 
The Gospel of Thomas ... the Rosicrucians ... What is your take on them?
The only teaching that I think can justifiably be called 'esoteric Christianity' is the doctrine of the apocatastasis, the belief that on His return Jesus will restore the Cosmos to its original primordial perfection, and in which, through the love and grace of God, 'all will be saved'.

This is refuted by the pastoral church – for understandable reasons – but is quietly speculated within Catholic and Orthodox circles.

The barrier, of course, is that it offends many's sense of justice, in which they insist on the punishment of the sinner.
 
The only teaching that I think can justifiably be called 'esoteric Christianity' is the doctrine of the apocatastasis, the belief that on His return Jesus will restore the Cosmos to its original primordial perfection, and in which, through the love and grace of God, 'all will be saved'.

This is refuted by the pastoral church – for understandable reasons – but is quietly speculated within Catholic and Orthodox circles.

The barrier, of course, is that it offends many's sense of justice, in which they insist on the punishment of the sinner.
Punishment and/or some kind of restitution makes sense... holding evildoers accountable in some way -- the harm caused by evil actions should cost them (the evildoers) in some way...
But certain doctrines -- such as the doctrine of eternal hellfire for unbelief -- seem like such preposterous overkill.
Why does it have to be such extreme all or nothing?
I like the apocatastasis you describe. I have seen the term "the restitution of all things" to describe something similar. I'm going to look into it.
Also, the ideas my Grandpa used to rail about, that he got from The World Wide Church of God (Armstrong) and its books and its Plain Truth magazine -- the ideas, as best I understood them as a little kid --seemed not dissimilar.
Amongst whom are these ideas quietly speculated in Catholicism and Orthodoxy? I'm curious now to find out more about the speculators too.
 
But certain doctrines -- such as the doctrine of eternal hellfire for unbelief -- seem like such preposterous overkill.
Why does it have to be such extreme all or nothing?
Well, that is a very good question..
..but from what I understand, nobody will be wronged .. we wrong ourselves.

satan decided to disobey God and take as many human beings as he can into hell with him.
Can he be forgiven without changing his behaviour?
 
Punishment and/or some kind of restitution makes sense... holding evildoers accountable in some way -- the harm caused by evil actions should cost them (the evildoers) in some way...
Oh, there is a judgement ... it's just not quite how we like to perceive it.

The question is how do we balance Divine Justice against Divine Mercy?

I rather like the idea that the Judgement is, in a sense, an ordeal by fire, which, according to the speculation of the late Benedict XVI is an: "encounter with him (Jesus) is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves...

... Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”."
(Spe Salvi p47)

But certain doctrines -- such as the doctrine of eternal hellfire for unbelief -- seem like such preposterous overkill.
Why does it have to be such extreme all or nothing?
As for the eternity of hell – we are creatures in time and space, but in the eschaton, there is no time, no space as such (as we understand it). Eternity is an instant. It is forever now, and all manner of paradoxical statements ...

The encyclical goes on:
"It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning – it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ."

Like you, I cannot reconcile any amount of evil done by finite creatures in time deserving endless punishment for all eternity with no chance of reconciliation or remission – the soul in hell neither learns nor benefits, grows or declines. In the end it's punishment for no reason, because there is no end to it, no object to it other than to suffer ...

I like the apocatastasis you describe. I have seen the term "the restitution of all things" to describe something similar. I'm going to look into it.
Also, the ideas my Grandpa used to rail about, that he got from The World Wide Church of God (Armstrong) and its books and its Plain Truth magazine -- the ideas, as best I understood them as a little kid --seemed not dissimilar.
Amongst whom are these ideas quietly speculated in Catholicism and Orthodoxy? I'm curious now to find out more about the speculators too.
It starts with Origen in the 2nd century – although that has been disputed, I tend to favour those theologians who support it.

It was picked up by Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose of Milan and Gregory of Nazianzus – heavyweight theologians in the 4th century. And then again by Maximus the Confessor – in the 7th century.

Modern scholars are:
Ilaria Ramelli
Brian E. Daley
Hans Urs von Balthasar Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved? With a Short Discourse on Hell.
David Bentley Hart (2019), That All Shall Be Saved, Yale University Press.

This is a small selection, being those I reference on the topic.

The Eclectic Orthodox blogsite has a useful list of references and paragraphs on the topic.

(In America in the 19th/20th century 'Universalism' espoused the apokatastasis (hence the name) ascribing beliefs to Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and others.)
 
Well, that is a very good question..
..but from what I understand, nobody will be wronged .. we wrong ourselves.

satan decided to disobey God and take as many human beings as he can into hell with him.
Can he be forgiven without changing his behaviour?
See my earlier post where I said "Punishment and/or some kind of restitution makes sense... holding evildoers accountable in some way -- the harm caused by evil actions should cost them (the evildoers) in some way..."

So my question is why the either/or --Why would you need to forgive him?
Why would there need to be hell?
Also, the people he "drags with him"
Why do they need to be in eternal torment?
Why is an additonal option not even occur to believers?
Does anybody believe that nuance or moderation or having "punishments in proportion to the crime" never occurs to God?

My hang up, for lack of a better word, on this, has to do less with forgiveness than with the absurd overkill of the punishment that is proposed in orthodox Christian doctrine (small o orthodox) and I believe, in Islam. The notion of eternal unending torture - both evil and absurd.
There are a minority of Christian denominations that teach conditional immortality -- and any number of individual believers that find it more convincing as well.
Although strictly speaking I was not brought up formally religious whatsoever, my grandfather (whose home we lived in) was a fervent convert to a denomination that believed just that, and he ranted intensely about it. (previously he had been a non believer)
He, and others along the way, told me that "only sick and crazy fanatics believe that ordinary decent people go to hell forever" and "that's not what it says in the bible anyway" "The Lake of Fire is total destruction, and its not for everyone, and the dead know nothing"
You can imagine what I thought of kids who tried to evangelize to me in the schoolyard - or what my family thought of their parents. (I don't know if people try that now-having little kids try to evangelize to other little kid at school, thereby disregarding and trying to bypass the parents' beliefs or teachings) but in the 70s, they did)
I was a little shocked in my 30s thought to learn people still believed, FERVENTLY! in eternal hell, when I was doing some research on denominations
But then I was also shocked to find out there were denominations that were not literal creationists, or who were LGBTQ friendly, or, any number of other progressive things.
I don't know what I expected exactly.
All of that is a roundabout way of describing my mindset into trying to figure out the puzzle of why eternal destiny has to be all or nothing, and/or why one unchanging thing would be set for eternity. What is the logic behind it? Do any scriptures say? If not, why do thinking people accept it and/or how do they rationalize it?
Why total forgiveness vs eternal hell presented as the only options?
To my mind, I find it a very suspect teaching. Both from basis reason and sense of justice, and in context of the alternatives the doctrines (conditional immortality/annihilationism) I was raised hearing about.
I am fascinated though, by defenses of that doctrine.
I am intrigued by the thought processes of those who do not object to it as I do.
How can people be so be convinced?
How can they not be bothered by it / see through it?
 
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So my question is why the either/or --Why would you need to forgive him?
Well, imagine a person in prison convicted of serious crimes..
Would he be released without showing remorse?

Why would there need to be hell?
Mmm .. a nasty "side of the coin" .. if souls are immortal, and we can't be with the righteous.

Also, the people he "drags with him"
Why do they need to be in eternal torment?
Maybe they won't be .. it depends how "far gone" they become.

Why is an additonal option not even occur to believers?
Does anybody believe that nuance or moderation or having "punishments in proportion to the crime" never occurs to God?
Well, as I understand it, G-d is not a person or soul .. He is of infinite nature.
All souls belong to Him and are immortal as is God.
"fire and brimstone" is an effective way of describing the suffering that we will feel due to our behaviour,
and the effect it has on others. It does not have to be interpreted as "God literally torturing people in a burning fire".
Continual mental anguish is excruciating.
Is it possible to save a soul that refuses to be saved? Refuses to respect righteousness and others?
Maybe .. and maybe not.

My hang up, for lack of a better word, on this, has to do less with forgiveness than with the absurd overkill of the punishment that is proposed in orthodox Christian doctrine (small o orthodox) and I believe, in Islam. The notion of eternal unending torture - both evil and absurd.
It is absurd if one sees God as an individual who prescribes punishment.
It is not absurd to state that gravity acts towards the earth i.e. describe a reality
God wrongs nobody .. we wrong ourselves.
How can a person be trusted to be in society, if he perpetually commits serious crime?
They can't. They therefore separate themselves from the righteous.
Why do some people in prison never show remorse? God save us from such a condition. Amen.

"The Lake of Fire is total destruction, and its not for everyone, and the dead know nothing"
Mmm .. the JW's and many others believe that.
I have often thought that it would be better for the poor to kill themselves, and be snuffed out,
rather than suffer endlessly in this life.

..but suicide is a sin for Catholics and Muslims. We have to be patient
Nobody is guaranteed to go to hell or heaven .. we do not know .. we need to remember God, in order not to be duped by satan. Any suffering in this world will end eventually.

All of that is a roundabout way of describing my mindset into trying to figure out the puzzle of why it has to be all or nothing.
Why total forgiveness vs eternal hell presented as the only options?
Well, they aren't are they.
Both Catholics and Muslims believe in a purgatory, which is a temporary hell.
..but how temporary, one could ask?
..better to try avoiding it altogether, if possible .. but we all sin, and that's why we need forgiveness.
For the benefit of our own souls. God is not in need of our worship.
It is we who are in need.

To my mind, I find it a very suspect teaching. Both from basis reason and sense of justice, and the doctrines I was raised around.
I am fascinated though, by defenses of that doctrine.
Intrigued by the thought processes of those who do not object to it as I do.
How can they be convinced?
How can they not be bothered by it / see through it?
I enjoyed reading your post, and quite understand. :)
Faith is up an down, and although I have found answers for you, it is not that I don't question them at times.
 
Well, imagine a person in prison convicted of serious crimes..
Would he be released without showing remorse?


Mmm .. a nasty "side of the coin" .. if souls are immortal, and we can't be with the righteous.


Maybe they won't be .. it depends how "far gone" they become.


Well, as I understand it, G-d is not a person or soul .. He is of infinite nature.
All souls belong to Him and are immortal as is God.
"fire and brimstone" is an effective way of describing the suffering that we will feel due to our behaviour,
and the effect it has on others. It does not have to be interpreted as "God literally torturing people in a burning fire".
Continual mental anguish is excruciating.
Is it possible to save a soul that refuses to be saved? Refuses to respect righteousness and others?
Maybe .. and maybe not.


It is absurd if one sees God as an individual who prescribes punishment.
It is not absurd to state that gravity acts towards the earth i.e. describe a reality
God wrongs nobody .. we wrong ourselves.
How can a person be trusted to be in society, if he perpetually commits serious crime?
They can't. They therefore separate themselves from the righteous.
Why do some people in prison never show remorse? God save us from such a condition. Amen.


Mmm .. the JW's and many others believe that.
I have often thought that it would be better for the poor to kill themselves, and be snuffed out,
rather than suffer endlessly in this life.

..but suicide is a sin for Catholics and Muslims. We have to be patient
Nobody is guaranteed to go to hell or heaven .. we do not know .. we need to remember God, in order not to be duped by satan. Any suffering in this world will end eventually.


Well, they aren't are they.
Both Catholics and Muslims believe in a purgatory, which is a temporary hell.
..but how temporary, one could ask?
..better to try avoiding it altogether, if possible .. but we all sin, and that's why we need forgiveness.
For the benefit of our own souls. God is not in need of our worship.
It is we who are in need.


I enjoyed reading your post, and quite understand. :)
Faith is up an down, and although I have found answers for you, it is not that I don't question them at times.
Thanks. I also edited my own post a few minutes ago for clarity (not having seen your reply yet) but I don't think it substantially changed anything that would affect your answer. Maybe just make it less "fuzzy" for future readers.

I find the analogy of the prison to be an uneven fit for a few reasons. By that I mean analogous to trying to screw the lid on a jar that seems to
be the same size but the threads don't line up and no matter how you try it spins around and around, it doesn't go on the jar.

Firstly, being in prison for however long is not an exact analogy to eternal torment.

Additionally, in real life at this time, people are released from prison all the time without finishing their sentences. Sometimes remorse or good behavior are cited as reasons, sometimes prison overcrowding or political pressure are actual reasons.

But I don't know if they are forgiven, only released.

Also, the NATURE of the punishment is simply not comparable -- back to the lid that doesn't fit the jar. The argument doesn't QUITE fit the question being posed.

The question that comes to my mind is always - What stopped God from creating a less catastrophic and permanent outcome?
If I as a mere human can think of it -- and in our world we as mere humans are expected to think of better ways to run an organization for example -- it stands to reason there is something fishy about a doctrine that is so catastrophic and so permanent, created by a being also stated to be all powerful and incredibly merciful and loving. The story falls apart. It makes the teachings seem wrong. But believers want to continue to insist the teachings are correct. They hold to them, fiercely. That is very interesting to me.

I don't know if there are any doctrinal or scriptural reasons to believe that there is release from prison either due to forgiveness or any other reason-- is the case in the afterworld, aside from the doctrine of Purgatory.
Usually, regarding hell, the case is explicitly insisted that it ISN'T.

Despite not being Catholic, and the influence of my grandparents' stern suspicion against Catholicism, I am inclined to agree with the doctrine of purgatory, which makes sense to me. I'm not sure I knew Islam had that doctrine.
One of the failings of Protestantism is the stark either or, and the emphasis on it heightens the absurdity of the position and turns many people away from God (as they often don't know enough to know about conditional immortality, which is a minority position but not at all unheard of. Like you said, JWs, but also Seventh Day Adventists, and a few denominations that spun off from the SDAs.)

I agree entirely that God is not like us, that God is a mystery, and we don't really know who or what God is, not fully.
I mean, it's hard enough to get our head around other people's thoughts, such as around how they accept and rationalize certain doctrinal positions like we are discussing here.
Much less understand God
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, your ways are not my ways"(Isaiah) and "We see through a glass, darkly" (1 Corinthians)

(I agree that God is not a person, we don't know what God is, though for Trinitarians, the 3 fractions of God are described as Persons, that's the term used. And they are said to be of the same substance, and believers are SURE about that, though there is no data on what that substance is)

What I think is interesting, terribly interesting the more I think about it, is when this concept is used. Diehard believers in classical Christian doctrine, for example, are awfully sure of the Trinity, awfully sure about the nature of Christ, awfully sure about the necessity of blood for atonement, awfully sure of the doctrines around eternal hell, awfully sure of the sinfulness of same sex relationships, or of divorce, or of abortion, or of any one thing or another. AWFULLY SURE. PASSIONATELY SURE! Enough so that historically people have been excommunicated, jailed, or executed for claiming differently on some of these matters. HOWEVER-- and this is the kicker -- when someone tries to make sense of any one teaching, and challenges the rationale... THEN SUDDENLY it's all -- "But God is not like us and we do not understand Him"

Although five minutes earlier they were SURE they understood God.

That's interesting to me.
 
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I find the analogy of the prison to be an uneven fit for a few reasons. By that I mean analogous to trying to screw the lid on a jar that seems to
be the same size but the threads don't line up and no matter how you try it spins around and around, it doesn't go on the jar.

Firstly, being in prison for however long is not an exact analogy to eternal torment.
No, not entirely..

Additionally, in real life at this time, people are released from prison all the time without finishing their sentences. Sometimes remorse or good behavior are cited as reasons, sometimes prison overcrowding or political pressure are actual reasons.
I referred to serious crime .. such as multiple murder and/or rape.
It was only an example. Some states/countries have capital punishment.

Also, the NATURE of the punishment is simply not comparable -- back to the lid that doesn't fit the jar. The argument doesn't QUITE fit the question being posed.
I wouldn't like to imagine how traumatic it would be to be incarcerated for life.
In fact, I think that the death penalty is fairer to the victim AND the society.

The question that comes to my mind is always - What stopped God from creating a less catastrophic and permanent outcome?
If I as a mere human can think of it -- and in our world we as mere humans are expected to think of better ways to run an organization for example -- it stands to reason there is something fishy about a doctrine that is so catastrophic and so permanent, created by a being also stated to be all powerful and incredibly merciful and loving. The story falls apart. It makes the teachings seem wrong. But believers want to continue to insist the teachings are correct. They hold to them, fiercely. That is very interesting to me.
Mmm .. the so-called problem of evil.
Personally, it makes little difference to me what happens to satan .. as I am aware that he cannot
mislead us all forever.
If satan can join the righteous in paradise at some point, then so be it.
..but I don't see how he can, unless he changes his mindset.

Furthermore, the idea of souls being "snuffed out" is all very well.
Can God be "snuffed out"? Obviously not !
In Islam, souls belong to God [part of God?] .. there is not a "soul factory" somewhere. :)

I agree entirely that God is not like us, that God is a mystery, and we don't really know who or what God is, not fully.
I mean, it's hard enough to get our head around other people's thoughts, such as around how they accept and rationalize certain doctrinal positions like we are discussing here.
Much less understand God
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, your ways are not my ways"(Isaiah) and "We see through a glass, darkly" (1 Corinthians)

(I agree that God is not a person, we don't know what God is, though for Trinitarians, the 3 fractions of God are described as Persons, that's the term used. And they are said to be of the same substance, and believers are SURE about that, though there is no data on what that substance is)

What I think is interesting, terribly interesting the more I think about it, is when this concept is used. Diehard believers in classical Christian doctrine, for example, are awfully sure of the Trinity, awfully sure about the nature of Christ, awfully sure about the necessity of blood for atonement, awfully sure of the doctrines around eternal hell, awfully sure of the sinfulness of same sex relationships, or of divorce, or of abortion, or of any one thing or another. AWFULLY SURE. PASSIONATELY SURE! Enough so that historically people have been excommunicated, jailed, or executed for claiming differently on some of these matters. HOWEVER-- and this is the kicker -- when someone tries to make sense of any one teaching, and challenges the rationale... THEN SUDDENLY it's all -- "But God is not like us and we do not understand Him"

Although five minutes earlier they were SURE they understood God.

That's interesting to me.
That is about human nature.
We are afraid of change .. afraid of having "our world" snatched from under us.
We are also tribal by nature .. not an easy test.
 
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