Religion as Self Fulfilling Prophecy

Aupmanyav said:
Same as in people with Abrahamic background, except that there are many Gods and Goddesses. You could call upon them in case of any problem, and that they liked people to be nice. And that was enough for a ticket to heaven and to escape hell. Worship whomever you want. Even if you worshiped one, it is not that others will not help if called upon.
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On the face of it, that sounds all well and good. It sounds easy and appealing, as stated.

Amongst the various Abrahamic traditions, there's no end of rivalry. Infighting within Christianity.

Was it like that for you and your neighbors?

However what you said
Aupmanyav said:
Very difficult to get out of childhood indoctrination, tribal pride and prejudices. It took me half my life to do that.
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Sounds more ominous. More oppressive or negative. Is it fair to say that? Did you find it oppressive?
Half your life to overcome it - sounds like time and effort - you must have had a reason -
 
TheLightWithin said:
Was it like that for you and your neighbors?

However what you said

Sounds more ominous. More oppressive or negative. Is it fair to say that? Did you find it oppressive?
Half your life to overcome it - sounds like time and effort - you must have had a reason -
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Yeah, it is like that for all Indians. You do your thing, I do mine. Only that one should not impinge on the other. That is Indian secularism as enshrined in our Constitution. "Sarva dharma sama bhava" (same treatment to all religions).

In Hinduism, there is no oppression. We are given a free hand. But even then, rejecting 'divinities' and 'divine order' is not easy.
Thoughts have to be fought, "Is all that I believed till now, false?"
Reason was lack of evidence.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Yeah, it is like that for all Indians. You do your thing, I do mine. Only that one should not impinge on the other. That is Indian secularism as enshrined in our Constitution. "Sarva dharma sama bhava" (same treatment to all religions).

In Hinduism, there is no oppression. We are given a free hand.
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Everything you say here sounds almost too good to be true.
Aupmanyav said:
But even then, rejecting 'divinities' and 'divine order' is not easy.
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Did you have to reject them? What was it about them that was hard to let go of?
Aupmanyav said:
Thoughts have to be fought, "Is all that I believed till now, false?"
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Why do the thoughts have to be fought?
Aupmanyav said:
Reason was lack of evidence.
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Complete lack or just insufficient?
 
TheLightWithin said:
Everything you say here sounds almost too good to be true.
Did you have to reject them? What was it about them that was hard to let go of?
Why do the thoughts have to be fought?

Complete lack or just insufficient?
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I believe it is good and true to a large extent.
If they were not truth, why should I cling to them?
(But Hinduism provided me a solution without Gods or Goddesses - Advaita, non-duality)
If the thoughts are not true and would not leave one, then one has to fight those thoughts.
Complete lack of evidence. Science provides a much better infrastructure.
 

@otherbrother – I have not watched this, it's 2 hours! But will ...

If you want to segment and discuss, that might be useful.

Have you read McGilchrist? I have The Master and his Emissary, but that's all.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Same as in people with Abrahamic background, except that there are many Gods and Goddesses. You could call upon them in case of any problem, and that they liked people to be nice. And that was enough for a ticket to heaven and to escape hell. Worship whomever you want. Even if you worshiped one, it is not that others will not help if called upon.
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Heaven and hell? I thought Indian religions teach rebirth or perfection ?
 
Aupmanyav said:
If the thoughts are not true and would not leave one, then one has to fight those thoughts.
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What do you mean by "thoughts would not leave" and "have to fight the thoughts"
This sounds like the way we might described the intrusive negative thoughts that some people have if anxious or depressed
But you are not talking about that
 
talib-al-kalim said:
Heaven and hell? I thought Indian religions teach rebirth or perfection ?
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Of course, Hinduism (generally) and Jainism believe in heaven, hell, rebirth and attempt to achieve a moral life (perfection), because the quality of next birth is supposed to depend on that. Sojourn in heaven and hell according to deeds is the interregnum between two births. Sikhism does not believe in heaven and hell but believes in rebirth. Buddhism (original) used heaven, hell and rebirth as allegory, but did not really believe in it.
 
TheLightWithin said:
This sounds like the way we might described the intrusive negative thoughts that some people have if anxious or depressed
But you are not talking about that
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Yeah, that is correct. Thoughts that you want to abandon but those thoughts which do not abandon you. Residual Effect.

We have a story of a man and a bear caught in a flood, both clinging to each other desperately. A friend on the bank thought that the person has got entangled in a black rug. He shouted 'leave the rug, leave the rug'. The drowning man replied ' I want to leave the rug, but the rug is not leaving me'. Perhaps you too have a similar story in your culture.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Yeah, that is correct. Thoughts that you want to abandon but those thoughts which do not abandon you. Residual Effect.

We have a story of a man and a bear caught in a flood, both clinging to each other desperately. A friend on the bank thought that the person has got entangled in a black rug. He shouted 'leave the rug, leave the rug'. The drowning man replied ' I want to leave the rug, but the rug is not leaving me'. Perhaps you too have a similar story in your culture.
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Not quite the same, but what comes to mind is the parable of the two wolves:


 
TheLightWithin said:
This thread reminded me of something I read recently about "non local consciousness" and though I couldn't find the same article, I found several on the topic of non local consciousness and am including a short one here:
noetic.org

Explaining the Unexplainable with Non-local Consciousness – IONS

Our new paper suggests that including alternative theories, such as non-local consciousness, may help us explain the unexplainable.
noetic.org noetic.org
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Thanks Light Within for the article. In Lynn McTaggart’s book, The Field, she sites research of a certain neuroscientist that led him to believe that some of memory even in animals must be stored non-locally. He basically chopped up animal brains and they were still able to how evidence of remembering things.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Yeah, it is like that for all Indians. You do your thing, I do mine. Only that one should not impinge on the other. That is Indian secularism as enshrined in our Constitution. "Sarva dharma sama bhava" (same treatment to all religions).

In Hinduism, there is no oppression. We are given a free hand. But even then, rejecting 'divinities' and 'divine order' is not easy.
Thoughts have to be fought, "Is all that I believed till now, false?"
Reason was lack of evidence.
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Divinity or not, “God” or “God Function” (that could be from depths of mind), the main question is whether what is called “spirituality”, which includes a great deal of empathy and other things that allow us to wholeheartedly be and do “good”, is cultivated by one’s belief. Aupmanyav’s talk of oneness and identifying with each other certainly sounds spiritual and transcendent of defensive characteristics of human nature that tend to get in the way of love and optimal moral development.
Not to judge him, but to see the utility of a given belief.
 
Remove God, soul, heaven, hell. judgement, deliverance, rebirth or ever-lasting life; and I am all for 'practical spirituality'.
As for loving all, brotherhood of all, these are utopian slogans. Not applicable everywhere. There are limits to it.
For example: Islamic terrorism in India fed by Pakistan. :)
 
Aupmanyav said:
Remove God, soul, heaven, hell. judgement, deliverance, rebirth or ever-lasting life; and I am all for 'practical spirituality'.
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What if You remove/discard it, but other brothers (including myself) don't?
Aupmanyav said:
As for loving all, brotherhood of all, these are utopian slogans.
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Off course it's an utopia. But it's not just a slogan. For the personal attitude, you cannot love all, but be ready to respect anyone who comes across your way. It doesn't mean to approve all deeds, in fact this is even an error. Respect of a person doesn't mean to say that what this person does is good, and love to a person even goes deeper into it.
Aupmanyav said:
Not applicable everywhere. There are limits to it.
For example: Islamic terrorism in India fed by Pakistan. :)
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Is terrorism love or respect? I wonder how and why people accumulate hatred to that degree, but can you reduce hatred with hatred, wrong with equal?
 
talib-al-kalim said:
Respect of a person doesn't mean to say that what this person does is good, and love to a person even goes deeper into it.
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Talib-al-kalim, Very important point you make here. I agree that if we look at the person as a whole being, we see or sense POTENTIAL, which may seem idealistic or “utopian,” but allows for the possibility of a positive self-fulfilling prophecy of improved human development.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
What if You remove/discard it, but other brothers (including myself) don't?
I wonder how and why people accumulate hatred to that degree, but can you reduce hatred with hatred, wrong with equal?
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That is OK. "Lakum deenukum wa liya deen" Al-Kafiroon 6.
One big cause is religion. It takes two hands to clap.
See some videos of Pakistani mawlanas and you will understand.
 
Case in point (and this may shed light on my willingness to be okay with “God function “ even though I do relate to it as an “Other,” because my normal thinking doesn’t go that deep, so it at least SEEMS like an other): Today at a church group gathering, a speaker testified how “God” gave her strength and guidance in struggling times.
I thought of a few times my sons and I got in a pickle (potentially life threatening situation) during our mountain climbing adventures. Yet we were open to hidden potential to survive. Not ruling out divine intervention, but based on our experiences, some divine or divine-ish potential is laying wait inside, as though God is woven into our being. So “God” happens naturally to those who are open to potential, whether it comes from God or self or Self. Faith may only require that openness to a positive possibility and a willingness to tap into it or Him.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
Off course it's an utopia. But it's not just a slogan. For the personal attitude, you cannot love all, but be ready to respect anyone who comes across your way.
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Right to the heart of my theme here. If we are open to the potential to love all (even as we fail to do so in actuality) then we may create a positive self-fulfilling prophecy of loving a whole lot more , if not ALL, people.
 
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