Religion as Self Fulfilling Prophecy

Thomas said:
Though I don’t think they are identical, the imaginal world in which visionary events and symbolic histories appear in their true reality is analogous to the metaxu in which Sophia appears as (and at) the threshold between the Creation and Divinity. Both represent an absolute reality of the structures of the cosmos and of consciousness, though both are almost entirely ignored by contemporary science, philosophy, and theology. Only at the fringes of theology does Sophia find welcome, and only in rare subcultures of the arts does serious consideration of the imaginal obtain purchase.
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Replied simply to highlight for myself and contemplate further, later. Fascinating
 
Thomas said:
The great French scholar and philosopher of religion Henri Corbin explains the characteristics of the imaginal realm:
"Between the universe that can be apprehended by pure intellectual perception and the universe perceptible to the senses, there is an intermediate world, the world of idea-images, of archetypal figures, or subtle substances, of ‘immaterial’ matter. This world is as real and objective, as consistent and subsistent as the intelligible and sensibly worlds; it is an intermediate universe ‘where the spiritual takes body and the body becomes spiritual,’ a world consisting of real matter and real extension, though by comparison to sensible, corruptible matter these are subtle and immaterial. The organ of the universe is the active imagination; it is the place of theophanic visions, the scene on which visionary events and symbolic histories appear in their true reality."
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We tend to locate imaginal processes in the realm of subjective reality, but apparently Corbin thinks there is a different kind of objectivity to it and that it interfaces with the regular objective reality we are in. I think he is/was probably onto something there.
 
otherbrother said:
I have been using the undefined God Function to help me run lately during my training for a marathon soon after my 70th birthday. I’m only up to 8 miles now but need a well of hidden potential to tap into for help this old man. Amazing how an overthinker like me can even shut of most thoughts in order to bath in the deep “waters” (subtle energy that I do, as a personal preference, associate with “God,” but don’t insist that it be anything else but hidden potential of either a local or nonlocal source).
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Did any prophet recommend to run a Marathon?

Animating yourself to do something doesn't mean anything more than that.

We may have several images to think of God, but God is certainly not an undefined function you can use.

Any references to God, in my understanding and conviction, needs to have the harmony with all, or at least with the society around you, whomever you accept as a prophet. I never read of a prophet who preached self-enhancement or anything that has no relation to God, the global or your close environment.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
You made me doubt my very limited knowledge of the Hebrew but i looked it up and it confirmed that -im is always a masculine plural ending.
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Actually, no. There are not a few exceptions. Just one example, what is the hebrew word for “women”? Here is another one. One of the most famous tractates in the Talmud is Avot, popularly known as Pirke Avot. Avot is the plural form of the noun “av” which means father. Avot means fathers.
 
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talib-al-kalim said:
I never read of a prophet who preached self-enhancement or anything that has no relation to God, the global or your close environment.
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Why would a prophet say that there is no God. It will cut his base, because his prophethood is supposed to be from a God.
Indian religions teach self-enhancement without need of a God (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and to some extent Sikhism).
isha.sadhguru.org

Nirvana Shatakam - Shivoham Shivoham Lyrics and Meaning

Nirvana Shatakam lyrics (Shivoham Shivoham) with meaning and full mp3 download
isha.sadhguru.org isha.sadhguru.org
Or take the poetry of Bulle Shah of the Chishtia Order (Sayyid Abdullah Shah Qadri, c. 1680–1757)

Bulla Ki Jaana Main Kaun | Rabbi Shergill | Song Lyrics Translation

www.filmyquotes.com www.filmyquotes.com

1024px-Grave_of_Hazrat_Baba_Bulleh_Shah.jpg
1024px-Shrine_Hazrat_Baba_Bulleh_Shah.jpg
 
Aupmanyav said:
Why would a prophet say that there is no God. It will cut his base, because his prophethood is supposed to be from a God.
Indian religions teach self-enhancement without need of a God (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and to some extent Sikhism).
isha.sadhguru.org

Nirvana Shatakam - Shivoham Shivoham Lyrics and Meaning

Nirvana Shatakam lyrics (Shivoham Shivoham) with meaning and full mp3 download
isha.sadhguru.org isha.sadhguru.org
Or take the poetry of Bulle Shah of the Chishtia Order (Sayyid Abdullah Shah Qadri, c. 1680–1757)

Bulla Ki Jaana Main Kaun | Rabbi Shergill | Song Lyrics Translation

www.filmyquotes.com www.filmyquotes.com
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There's certainly a difference between monotheistic prophets and the wise teachers in Indian religions. There's no real equivalent to what we perceive as God. But is the teaching of the wise a self-enhancement without a relationship with other people, animals, plants ?
 
RabbiO said:
Actually, no. There are not a few exceptions. Just one example, what is the hebrew word for “women”? Here is another one. One of the most famous tractates in the Talmud is Avot, popularly known as Pirke Avot. Avot is the plural form of the noun “av” which means father. Avot means fathers.
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Thanks for the correction. As I said, my knowledge in Hebrew is very deficient. But what about Eloh? At least in Arabic, Allah is grammatically certainly masculine (I'm not an expert in Arabic either but at least I can communicate and read it, whereas in Hebrew, I rather have to analyse word by word)
 
Aupmanyav said:
@talib-al-kalim , did you listen to the Shergill song? The video is beautiful and it was immensely popular at one time.
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I listened to the other song, but the Shergill song wouldn't play on the link😶🫤

EDIT - I found it here
Full video - in case it doesn't play it's called Rabbi Bulla Ki Jaana on a channel called phatphishmusic, posted 17 years ago.
 
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talib-al-kalim said:
Did any prophet recommend to run a Marathon?

Animating yourself to do something doesn't mean anything more than that.

We may have several images to think of God, but God is certainly not an undefined function you can use.

Any references to God, in my understanding and conviction, needs to have the harmony with all, or at least with the society around you, whomever you accept as a prophet. I never read of a prophet who preached self-enhancement or anything that has no relation to God, the global or your close environment.
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One thing I like about this forum is the different take on things. I see the marathon project as a personal celebration of life—not as a personal achievement, not ego satisfaction. But then my Christian upbringing had a negative side effect of making me feel a bit inadequate, falling short, sinful. I begin almost every project with a nagging LACK of confidence. Others may have inflated egos, but my default setting is the opposite, even though I have moments and pockets of overcompensating false confidence (shooting from the hips).
No wonder, then my emphasis on spiritual Empowerment. My neuroticism needs the loose flow that seems almost psychotic at times, in comparison to my uptight conditioning. But my sense of morality and need for stability keeps me from risk of going off the deep end with spirituality or otherwise. Perhaps I have the moral conditioning a bit too much, and need a little grace, and project that need onto others?
A sociopath or naturally egoistic person might need more of what I got too much of—Good Orderly Direction.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
I think a "love for all" is too much. If this love doesn't result in an adequate engagement, it is shallow. If you really take it serious, you will result in a burn-out. We are limited. It's better to concentrate on those who are near. We can try to be respectful and friendly to all, give support to organisations if we can afford it, but love needs to be selective to stay true.

The other thing is not to fall into hatred, or, if so, stand up and discard it. That's possible, insha'Allah, if we accept the Holy Spirit in us and let Her work, fulfilling itself in us and fulfilling ourselves in Her.
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Good points about how the perfect can become the enemy of the good. If we try too hard to love everyone it certainly could backfire. But perhaps we could learn to hold the idea of loving everyone lightly/loosely, knowing we are but moving in that direction, being gently pulled towards it. Yes, Holy Spirit in us might help us kind of flow towards it instead of pushing hard. Lowering resistance (being peaceful, humble, non defensive) seems to be a major skill for being more “spiritual.”
 
otherbrother said:
Just now got around to ordering book. Looking forward to reading it. Thanks, Thomas for the recommendation. I haven’t watch the two hour talk link you shared some time after this. Was taking forever to connect on my iPhone. May have to watch on laptop.
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Got book. Only in intro so far. Especially liked this, as one of three “basic themes” of transcendence:
3. The existential “return” to normal awareness…how does the realization of the highest state translate into everyday life…?
This is when “God” functions in our lives, bears “good fruit.” This makes religion or trying to grow spiritually worthwhile. We are here. Allow God to help us make the best of it. And, in the process, actually improve “it” ( life, the world).
 
TheLightWithin said:
I listened to the other song, but the Shergill song wouldn't play on the link😶🫤

EDIT - I found it here
Full video - in case it doesn't play it's called Rabbi Bulla Ki Jaana on a channel called phatphishmusic, posted 17 years ago.
Click to expand...
Liked the fusion of east and west music. Loved the contemplation about “who/what is the true Self?” (Paraphrased). To tie in with my earlier discussion with Talib, today the Unknown was (and this is one denier of Holy Spirit) The Comforter who not comforts ALL who are, have ever, or will ever, struggle and suffer. I intentionally ran as a representative of all who have suffered and struggled. Low hanging fruit because as an old man who was up on a ladder most of the previous day holding up facia boards we were putting on our church’s new resource building (in process of being built) had tired legs to run with in addition to being old and a bit overweight. Why not put the social concern, caring, empathy first so that the marathon training is not just an ego trip. And what prophet endorsed this practice? Perhaps a subconsciously felt messenger from the other (Deeper) side? Or we can be our own prophet if we tap into the God flow of Holy Spirit or “Larger Self” (the temporary identity I took on as I empathized with the suffering of fellow humans, as illustrated/symbolized by my physical straining/suffering). The singer was no longer accepting the illusion of his superficial self, and was opening up his consciousness to a universal connectivity or union with God or Ultimate Reality (Brahman?). I was using “God” to help me run and identify with whatever that Deeper and Wider base of my being is. And this utilization was not for little Darrell (other brother’s fist name) but for the part of Darrell that serves God and/or transforms a mere “self” into a spiritual form.
 
otherbrother said:
We tend to locate imaginal processes in the realm of subjective reality, but apparently Corbin thinks there is a different kind of objectivity to it and that it interfaces with the regular objective reality we are in. I think he is/was probably onto something there.
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This may be more in line with my unfinished assignment by Thomas of reading book Paths To Transcendence. But I currently looked up Jaspers as I was contemplating God as Comforter, which I plan to make a theme for a new thread about one specific way that God FUNCTIONS in our lives, helping create self-fulfilling life that transcends suffering. :

From Wikipedia:
Jaspers points out that as people question reality, they confront borders that an empirical (or scientific) method simply cannot transcend. At this point, the individual faces a choice: sink into despair and resignation, or take a leap of faith toward what Jaspers calls Transcendence. In making this leap, individuals confront their own limitless freedom, which Jaspers calls Existenz, and can finally experience authentic existence.[citation needed]

Transcendence (paired with the term The Encompassing in later works) is, for Jaspers, that which exists beyond the world of time and space. Jaspers's formulation of Transcendence as ultimate non-objectivity (or no-thing-ness) has led many philosophers to argue that ultimately, Jaspers became a monist, though Jaspers himself continually stressed the necessity of recognizing the validity of the concepts both of subjectivityand of objectivity.[citation needed]

Although he rejected explicit religious doctrines,[2] including the notion of a personal God, Jaspers influenced contemporary theology through his philosophy of transcendence and the limits of human experience. Mystic Christian traditions influenced Jaspers himself tremendously, particularly those of Meister Eckhart and of Nicholas of Cusa.
 
otherbrother said:
This may be more in line with my unfinished assignment by Thomas of reading book Paths To Transcendence. But I currently looked up Jaspers as I was contemplating God as Comforter, which I plan to make a theme for a new thread about one specific way that God FUNCTIONS in our lives, helping create self-fulfilling life that transcends suffering. :

From Wikipedia:
Jaspers points out that as people question reality, they confront borders that an empirical (or scientific) method simply cannot transcend. At this point, the individual faces a choice: sink into despair and resignation, or take a leap of faith toward what Jaspers calls Transcendence. In making this leap, individuals confront their own limitless freedom, which Jaspers calls Existenz, and can finally experience authentic existence.[citation needed]

Transcendence (paired with the term The Encompassing in later works) is, for Jaspers, that which exists beyond the world of time and space. Jaspers's formulation of Transcendence as ultimate non-objectivity (or no-thing-ness) has led many philosophers to argue that ultimately, Jaspers became a monist, though Jaspers himself continually stressed the necessity of recognizing the validity of the concepts both of subjectivityand of objectivity.[citation needed]

Although he rejected explicit religious doctrines,[2] including the notion of a personal God, Jaspers influenced contemporary theology through his philosophy of transcendence and the limits of human experience. Mystic Christian traditions influenced Jaspers himself tremendously, particularly those of Meister Eckhart and of Nicholas of Cusa.
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I remembered Jaspers from an existential philosophy class (or was it a reading on my own?) . What I took from the information about him was that if you can’t take God out and use it like you would a pocket knife, what good is “God?” This, of course fits with my own interest in the “God Function.”
How can I give God a use here in my life in this physical dimension? Until I use God, I can only do my work for God, not necessarily God’s work through me. Having said that, I continue to believe that it is counterproductive to insist that God is outside of self. Perhaps so deep inside a True Self that it is beyond the regular me, but the regular me was always somewhat of an illusion to be training wheels for my “ride” as an incarnated spirit. If I can wake up enough to a deeper Reality, then I may begin a closer to saintly rid without the training wheels of thinking of myself as a separate being. That means also no longer thinking of God as a separate being. Separation is but part of the illusion to see beyond, to transcend.
 
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