What the bible says

[Yahweh kid]

you choose which understanding/translation you prefer

Sorry Muhammad, I was talking to Thomas who follows the Bible......

BTW. Who is your Lord?

 

[Yahweh kid]

One cannot read a text without interpreting the text.

By which I mean, what the Bible clearly says to you might not be what it clearly says to someone else.

And the Bible, of course, has to be taken as a whole, not just this verse or that.

Sure. What does God want? That we know the Truth or an interpretation of the Truth that could be totally wrong....
How do you interpret John 3:16?

God is Good. God is the source and origin of the Good, and nothing else.

Is God righteous?

And above all else, my God knows 'there's more than one way to skin a cat', as the saying goes.

I hope and trust in Him, and have faith that He will find a way to bring every soul to Himself.

You are not talking about the God of the Bible are you....? (my God knows 'there's more than one way to skin a cat'.... where does this come from?)

Who is your God?

So you say. I do not know. Nowhere in Scripture does it say so ... and the words and deeds of Christ suggest otherwise.

Well in Matthew 7:13-14 Jesus said "You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way."
What happens to those who are not interested in repenting?
God says that only if you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior will you be saved from eternal wrath... it is pretty straightforward. (The majority of mankind do not accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior)

And if the soul is given the chance to repent, would it not choose life in Him?

I also believe every soul has a chance to repent and choose life, but only the few desires it.... does it matter to whom you repent your sins to? To which god, there are quite a few to choose from and some people even create their own.

 

[Thomas]

How do you interpret John 3:16?

As it is written.

Is God righteous?

Yes.

Is God merciful?

Yes.

You are not talking about the God of the Bible are you....?

Actually, I am.

(my God knows 'there's more than one way to skin a cat'.... where does this come from?)

The phrase 'more than one way to skin a cat' is a phrase that's been around for centuries. It means there's more than one way to achieve a desired outcome, and in this case the desired outcome is that "... God, who intends all human beings to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Who is your God?

Same as yours.

Well in Matthew 7:13-14 Jesus said "You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way."

The point is, I am called as a Christian 'to love my neighbour as myself' – Christ's words – therefore I hope that God finds a way to save everyone, and I trust in God.

Nor do I believe any soul can enjoy perfect beatitude knowing there are those who suffer in hell.

I would rather a God who simply snuffed me out of existence than one who sent me to suffer for no good end. I simply cannot accept there is anything good in inflicting eternal torment on anyone, for no purpose other than its own sake – God does not will evil.

 

[Yahweh kid]

As it is written.

So you interpret this verse as it is written? John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Then we are in agreement that many will not have eternal life....

Yes.

So you agree God is righteous, will you also agree that God will punish the unrighteous? for example what the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 6:8-10.

Actually, I am.

Show me Scripture which informs us that there are different ways to be Saved (to skin a cat). The previous pope said "all religions are paths to God" which was a blatant lie. John 3:16 does not support that type of teaching.
The fact that God desires all souls to be Saved does not mean all WILL be Saved.

Same as yours.

Can you say your Lord's name?

The point is, I am called as a Christian 'to love my neighbour as myself' – Christ's words – therefore I hope that God finds a way to save everyone, and I trust in God.

My friend, I have struggled with the hell concept as mentioned in the Bible many times. The fact that it is eternal with no option of repentance is tuff...the way I understand it, based on the scriptures, is that the only time we can repent is now this life.
The way I see it is, if we do not accept God according to His Word we are creating another God in our image, a false god.

Nor do I believe any soul can enjoy perfect beatitude knowing there are those who suffer in hell.

I agree, me too, but God created us and has the right to do as He wish. Are you ok if satan has to suffer for eternity?

To be honest, I too hope that God will find a way to save all souls and that the suffering should not be eternal.... but I do not see that happening according to the Word. However, this should be a good reason/motivation for us if we truly love our neighbour to do God's will as it is written in Matthew 28:19-20.

I would rather a God who simply snuffed me out of existence than one who sent me to suffer for no good end.

That would be nice, but that is not God's way. God is the only one who can cast/send a soul to hell and He does. Is that evil or justice/righteousness?
Can you worship a loving merciful God that sends unbelievers to hell? tough question for me....

Revelation 20:15 states, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire'

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you agree God is righteous..

I don't even know what that means .. righteousness is defined as His creation (mankind) following
a righteous path, as laid out by G-d.
G-d is not a person, that follows that 'law'. G-d is not a person or soul .. He is responsible for
ALL souls, and are of G-d .. from G-d .. belong to G-d.

G-d is Holy, perfect .. the source of all good.

..will you also agree that God will punish the unrighteous?

In effect, we punish our own souls .. G-d is not a tyrant, that would torture.
..just as in this lifethere are consequences for our actions, so to in the life hereafter there are
consequences .. and yes, there is suffering for those who scoffed in this life.

The way I see it is, if we do not accept God according to His Word we are creating another God in our image, a false god.

..false gods are those that are taken as an authority in place of G-d .. there is only One who
created the universe .. but many religions .. creeds.
I would agree that they (creeds) cannot ALL be accurate .. each and every one of us depends
on G-d personally to guide us to truth. He is aware of what is in our hearts .. our likes and dislikes
etc.

Are you ok if satan has to suffer for eternity?

devils wrong their own souls .. the deeper they 'dig the hole', the harder it is to 'get out'.
I do not believe that all devils will suffer for eternity .. G-d forgives whomsoever He wills,
and punishes whomsoever He wills.
Any soul with any decency has a chance of eventual removal from hell.

I am not happy to see anybody suffer for eternity.
..but acknowledge that possibility, and take Divine guidance seriously.
"Do not wrong others" - "Wish for others that which you wish for yourselves"

 

[Thomas]

So you interpret this verse as it is written? John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Then we are in agreement that many will not have eternal life....

No, we're not, not quite as you would have it.

One soul lost means the defeat of God's desire that all will be saved. That His creation was, and will ever be, imperfect.

So you agree God is righteous, will you also agree that God will punish the unrighteous? for example what the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 6:8-10.

I also believe what Paul wrote in Romans 5:20-21
"But Law was introduced in order that the transgression might abound; and, where sin was abundant, grace was superabundant, In order that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through uprightness for life in the age through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Paul says grace is greater than sin, but if sin wins, then grace is not enough ...

Grace does not cancel out justice. It does not make wrong into right.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (cf. Luke 16:19-31), we see a soul corrupted by arrogance and opulence, trapped within its base desires for material pleasures, which then finds itself unable to love, and suffers a burning and unquenchable thirst. This is not the Last Judgement, but of a prior state, in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced.

What happens to such individuals when they appear before the Judge? Will all the weight of sin amassed in life simply cease to matter?

You mention Corinthians – Paul says the Christian life is built on Christ. Then Paul continues:
"Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw (ie, other than Christ) each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15).

In this text, that what is made of a life may be 'burned up' – to be saved we have to pass through the "fire" so that purified, we may become fully receptive to God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal banquet. In the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives is laid bare, there lies salvation. His gaze heals us through an undeniably painful transformation "as through fire".

+++

Now it may be that some are so corrupted by sin, that no shred nor trace of humanity survives – I find this hard to believe, and harder to accept – my hope is that no-one is beyond the reach of the Love of God.

But I also, personally, am inclined to think that if this is the case, then in that fire, such a sinner would be consumed entirely, as one with their sin, and that when the flames settle, as it were, nothing remains.

Then I would sorrow, as God sorrows, for one soul lost ... but better that, than the soul is then consigned to endless suffering, in which nothing good can come about, in which it cannot learn nor repent nor anything ... all it can do is suffer, and to what end? That serves no good purpose.

The previous pope said "all religions are paths to God" which was a blatant lie.

To your mind, not mind.

John 3:16 does not support that type of teaching.

To your mind, not mine.

The fact that God desires all souls to be Saved does not mean all WILL be Saved.

Nor does it mean they won't.

My friend, I have struggled with the hell concept as mentioned in the Bible many times.

Then I pray you struggle with the concept of love...

I repeat, "where sin abounds, God's love abounds all the more"

 

[Yahweh kid]

G-d is not a person, that follows that 'law'. G-d is not a person or soul .. He is responsible for
ALL souls, and are of G-d .. from G-d .. belong to G-d.

Define your god(the One), so that I may understand where you are coming from. (I do not suggest God is a human being)
Does God have a personality?
Can you have a relationship with God?
Does God have a name?


I believe God does not follow a law, He is the Law giver.
How many others believe the same as you do, has the same faith as you, who shares your ideas about God?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Define your god(the One)..

The Abrahamic God..

Does God have a personality?

He is Holy, and is neither male or female.

Can you have a relationship with God?

Every single one of us does .. believer and disbeliever alike.
"He is closer to us than our jugular vein"

Does God have a name?

He has many Names/Attributes..

How many others believe the same as you do, has the same faith as you, who shares your ideas about God?

Billions share the same core beliefs, but we are all individuals .. imperfect .. of varying mind etc.

 

[Yahweh kid]

No, we're not, not quite as you would have it.

So you do not take John 3:16 as it is written. Do you believe 2 Timothy 3:16, as it is written?

One soul lost means the defeat of God's desire that all will be saved. That His creation was, and will ever be, imperfect.

Why would it mean defeat? So no one will go to hell because He desires it otherwise it is a defeat? That is not what the Bible says. God gave us a will to choose if we want to be with Him for eternity or not. I do believe because he loves us so He also desires for us to be with Him. Did God give every soul a free will to choose whether they want to be with Him or not?...... Without a free will we will be just like robots, following a program, have no love.

I also believe what Paul wrote in Romans 5:20-21
"But Law was introduced in order that the transgression might abound; and, where sin was abundant, grace was superabundant, In order that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through uprightness for life in the age through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Yes, God's mercy is superabundant, He forgives our sins through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:8-9 But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.​

Without Jesus Christ we will not be saved of God's wrath. Right?

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (cf. Luke 16:19-31), we see a soul corrupted by arrogance and opulence, trapped within its base desires for material pleasures, which then finds itself unable to love, and suffers a burning and unquenchable thirst. This is not the Last Judgement, but of a prior state, in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced.

What happens to such individuals when they appear before the Judge? Will all the weight of sin amassed in life simply cease to matter?

That is not the last Judgement, I agree. The rich man is already guilty though, otherwise he would not have resided in Hades. The final Judgement is after the millenium when God is going to make a new earth and a new heaven, and the unbeliever/demonic will be casted in the everlasting fire as in Matthew 25.

To your mind, not mind.

So how does your mind see it referring to the Scriptures?

Nor does it mean they won't.

You are denying the Word as it is written. It specifically says that God is going to cast the unbeliever in hell/ everlasting fire. If you believe God is not going to do that you are not worshipping the God of the Bible, but rather a god based on your terms.

Does a person go to heaven if they don't believe in Jesus Christ the Savior?

I repeat, "where sin abounds, God's love abounds all the more"

Yes, that is why He made a way for us to be Saved. If we go another way we will not be Saved. The pope contradicts the Bible.
The wages of sin is death as it is written in Roman 6:23. Is this a lie?
Is God going to cast the unbeliever in the everlasting fire as it is written in Matthew 25? Is that a lie as well?


Thomas, are you a Christian universalist?

 

[Yahweh kid]

The Abrahamic God..

Really, the God of the Bible, the One Moses saw? As it is written in Exodus 33

He is Holy

Yes He is holy, but does He have a personality? or maybe have more than one personality?

neither male or female.

Then you must be very confused, God says He is our Father(male) not mother.
Do you believe God is a trinity? The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

Every single one of us does .. believer and disbeliever alike.

Wishful thinking.....You must tell that to atheists and hear what they got to say about having a relationship with God.

He has many Names/Attributes..

Could Yahweh or Yahshua be some of them?

Billions share the same core beliefs, but we are all individuals .. imperfect .. of varying mind etc.

I believe you said that there is only one God....So is Allah and the Abrahamic God the same God?

 

[RabbiO]

@Yahweh kid -

I had been working on a response to your questions to me. My responses often take longer because my real life and its responsibilities are always my first priorities. I had been working on a response, but no longer. I have been following your questions and responses to other forum members. It seems to me that you are not really interested in dialogue with those who walk paths different than yours, who hold views and beliefs that are at variance with yours. The tenor and the tone of your posts are palatable. The arrogance and condescension are undisguised. You seem to hold to the belief that those who disagree with you are either spiritually blind, spiritually ignorant, or spiritually stupid. That attitude is not conducive to a conversation whose purpose is simply to better understand what others believe.

Your views, as expressed in your posts, are incompatible with Judaism. I don't have a problem that. I don't have a problem with the fact that we disagree so strongly. I would expect you to be a passionate proponent of your faith as you understand it. However, I am not here to debate. I am not here to try to convince you to be something other than a Christian.

If your purpose is to convince others that your path is correct and that failure to follow that path leads to eternal damnation - a purpose that might be at odds with forum rules - find someone else willing to play that game. If, on the other hand, you are interested in an actual conversation.....

 

[Yahweh kid]

Thanks for your response. I wish you well.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then you must be very confused..

Not at all .. it is G-d who created male and female .. G-d has no husband/wife .. no children.
There are not a family of gods.

I believe you said that there is only one God....So is Allah and the Abrahamic God the same God?

If you do not know the answer to that, then why not? Are you not familiar with major
Abrahamic beliefs?

 

[Yahweh kid]

Not at all .. it is G-d who created male and female .. G-d has no husband/wife .. no children.
There are not a family of gods.

He has a Son. Allah does not. It is not the same God. Salvation is different in the three religions..... in Christianity Salvation is based on God's work/plan and a gift, the other two is based on man's works.

All people have sinned and fallen short of God’s standard, so we will be punished accordingly. I am a sinner and is guilty of transgressing God's laws, no matter how many good works I do, it cannot rectify my wrongdoing in the eyes of the Lord.. We will be Judged.
.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, are you a Christian universalist?

LOL, it's taken you this long to figure that out?

Yes, I am.

That is my Hope in Him. My Faith in Him speaks to me of nothing less.

I could never enjoy true happiness knowing that other souls suffer eternal torment for no reason and toward no end.

 

[muhammad_isa]

He has a Son. Allah does not. It is not the same God..

If there is only One God, then how can there be different gods?
Abrahamic religions are monotheistic.

I think what you mean, is that the creeds are not the same .. people believe different things
about the One God.

..and what do you mean by "Son" ? Do you consider Mary, mother of Jesus, to be God's wife?

Salvation is different in the three religions..... in Christianity Salvation is based on God's work/plan and a gift, the other two is based on man's works.

That is far too simplistic .. there are many creeds/beliefs in Christianity alone .. and they do NOT
all consider that a man's works are superfluous.

..no matter how many good works I do, it cannot rectify my wrongdoing in the eyes of the Lord..

..that makes no sense .. that implies that repentance is futile.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Son is one of God's three persons..

..so G-d has a 'split personality' ?
What do you mean by 'person' ?

..we will surely die if we place our trust in ourselves to Save our souls..

We will ALL 'surely die'..
..but I think you refer to the life hereafter.

..and as I understand, the sequel is for the righteous .. no particular creed .. not exclusively Christian .. not exclusively Muslim .. or any other of those that claim 'they are the only ones' etc.

Only God can Save us through His merciful way.

Yes .. and that entails our sincere submission to His laws/guidance .. choosing a righteous path.
..becoming 'born again' or finding G-d is a foundation .. it is not enough to think you can be 'saved'
and not put any effort in.
eg. Bible study .. attend weekly worship

The above are 'good deeds' .. they are absolutely necessary.

 

[Thomas]

I thought you were a Christian, you fooled me.

Well, it takes all sorts!

You have decided to accept the parts of the Word that fits your ideology. (what you want to believe)

I accept the text in its entirety – I don't look for verses that say this, or verses that say that – and base my entire belief on how I read those verses. I read the whole, and take it as a whole.

Christ calls all to repentance, ands gave dire warning about the fate of sinners, as you consistently point out, and I absolutely agree with that ... but he also said this:

"Amen, I tell you that all will be excused the sons of men, the transgressions and the blasphemies, howsoever they may blaspheme; but whoever blasphemes against the Spirit, the Holy One, has no excuse throughout the age, but is answerable for a transgression in the
age." (Mark 3:28-29)

"Hence I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be excused human beings, but the blasphemy of the Spirit will not be excused. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be excused him; but whoever speaks against the Spirit, the Holy One, it will not be excused him, neither in this age nor in the age to come" (Matthew 12:31-32)

"But I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before human beings, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God; and the one who denies me before human beings will be denied before the angels of God. And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it will be excused him; but the one blaspheming against the Holy Spirit will not be excused." (Luke 12:8-10).

So in three places Jesus clearly says "all transgressions" and "every sin and blasphemy" and "every word against the Son of Man" will be forgiven.

And I think I can say that my reputation here is of one who "acknowledges Christ" as our salvation – the salvation of all – and I stand by that.

Furthermore, I can also say that my reputation here as one who confesses the Holy Trinity and stoutly defends the doctrine of the Triune God and argues the case for its logic and coherence.

And what is the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"?
"I still have many things to tell you, but right now you cannot bear them; but when that one comes, the Spirit of the Truth, He will guide you on the way to all truth; for He will not speak from Himself, but will speak what He hears, and He will announce to you things to come. That one will glorify me, because He will receive from what is mine and will announce it to you." (John 16:12-13).

I think that He comes to everyone as they pass through the veil into the eschaton – and there is no doubt and can be no denying Who He Is.

The blasphemy then, it seems to me, is to refuse Him, and refuse where He offers to take us –
"For as many as are led by God's Spirit, these are God's children (text reads 'sons'). For you did not receive again a spirit of slavery to fear (that is the spirit of the Archon of this World, the spirit of death, whom Christ has overcome) but rather received a spirit of adoption in which we cry, “Abba, Father!” The Spirit itself testifies along with our spirit that we are God's children." (Romans 8:15)

I cannot fathom how anyone, confronted with the Spirit of Truth, can refuse the Love of God.

+++

 

[Yahweh kid]

I accept the text in its entirety – I don't look for verses that say this, or verses that say that – and base my entire belief on how I read those verses. I read the whole, and take it as a whole.

Then you cannot be an universalist.

Christ calls all to repentance, ands gave dire warning about the fate of sinners, as you consistently point out, and I absolutely agree with that ... but he also said this:

"Amen, I tell you that all will be excused the sons of men, the transgressions and the blasphemies, howsoever they may blaspheme; but whoever blasphemes against the Spirit, the Holy One, has no excuse throughout the age, but is answerable for a transgression in the
age." (Mark 3:28-29)

What is Jesus trying to tell us here? That the only sin that will not be excused is the blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. It does not suggest everyone will receive Salvation. That idea is not supported by the Scriptures.

So in three places Jesus clearly says "all transgressions" and "every sin and blasphemy" and "every word against the Son of Man" will be forgiven.

This means that every person's sins will be forgiven if they acknowledge Him before man.... John 3:16 helps to make it all clear.

And I think I can say that my reputation here is of one who "acknowledges Christ" as our salvation – the salvation of all – and I stand by that.

The Salvation of all who believe, yes. Don't deny it, my friend.
There are many who hates God, you really think God will force them to be with Him or rather give them the freedom to decide whether they want to spend an eternity with Him or not?
Why did God bother to send His Son to die on the cross in the first place, if people will be Saved whether they believe in Christ or not? Makes no sense to me.

Furthermore, I can also say that my reputation here as one who confesses the Holy Trinity and stoutly defends the doctrine of the Triune God and argues the case for its logic and coherence.

As look as we keep all the Scriptures close to our heart and mind. The Bereans, to see if Paul was telling the Truth, went back to the Scriptures, so should Christians.
Do you agree that not all who call themselves Christians will enter the Kingdom?

I think that He comes to everyone as they pass through the veil into the eschaton – and there is no doubt and can be no denying Who He Is.

I also tend to believe that He comes to everyone, but I also believe that they have a choice whether they want to open the door or not when He knocks. Jesus is denied by so so many, if they only knew what He has done for us. But this world has made heaven and hell a fairytale... I guess we will see if it is after death when we cannot say I am sorry anymore...... we choose now not when we died.

Do you remember pinocchio? The scene where the kids had a great time at pleasure island and then turned into donkeys... it actually has a spiritual aspect to it.

The blasphemy then, it seems to me, is to refuse Him, and refuse where He offers to take us –

I agree.
The main role of the Holy Spirit is to show and guide us to Christ. If we reject Him we will also reject Christ and will surely die.

"For as many as are led by God's Spirit, these are God's children (text reads 'sons'). For you did not receive again a spirit of slavery to fear (that is the spirit of the Archon of this World, the spirit of death, whom Christ has overcome) but rather received a spirit of adoption in which we cry, “Abba, Father!” The Spirit itself testifies along with our spirit that we are God's children." (Romans 8:15)

Amen. When we receive the Holy Spirit we become new and God considers us His children.... is that not amazing!
Denying the Holy Spirit means you cannot become a child of God. The unforgivable sin. Makes sense.

I cannot fathom how anyone, confronted with the Spirit of Truth, can refuse the Love of God.

And still there are so many... the majority of mankind, choosing the wide gate to destruction.

God's love is so great that He sent His only begotten Son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins....so that those who believe in Him might have eternal life in His Kingdom. I wish that it would be all of mankind, no matter how bad the person might have been, but it is not for me to decide, one day we will know and understand why God did what He did.
I believe God loved Lucifer as well, but after he rebelled against God he was cast out of heaven.... God does not view sin very lightly...

 

[Thomas]

God's love is so great that He sent His only begotten Son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins....so that those who believe in Him might have eternal life in His Kingdom. I wish that it would be all of mankind, no matter how bad the person might have been, but it is not for me to decide, one day we will know and understand why God did what He did.

So best leave it there.