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Upon G-d granting eternal life
Wouldn't live forever (referencing your earlier comments)
Thoughts about Trinity beliefs
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CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY
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Destroyed For Ever: An Examination of the Debates Concerning Annihilation and Conditional Immortality
There is no doctrine I would more willingly remove from Christianity than [hell], if it lay in my power … I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully: ‘All will be saved.’1 C.S. Lewis states clearly what is probably true for most modern Christians. Hell may well be unique amongst...
Rethinking Hell: What does “Conditional Immortality” mean?
Conditional Immortality is the view that life or existence is God's provisional gift to all, which will ultimately either be granted or revoked forever.
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Conditional Immortality: Biblical proof of Annihilation in Hell.: Barry, Douglas: 9781482698053: Amazon.com: Books
Conditional Immortality: Biblical proof of Annihilation in Hell. [Barry, Douglas] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Conditional Immortality: Biblical proof of Annihilation in Hell.
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Yes .. I'm familiar with the concept..
conditional immortality is a concept in which the gift of immortality is attached to (conditional upon) belief in Jesus Christ.
-wikipedia-
..so I'm forced to live forever, if I believe in Jesus Christ?
What I'm trying to point out, is that the doctrine of conditional immortality assumes that
people would want to live forever.
Clearly many people do not .. the suicide rates are increasing.
Rich people often want to live forever .. I understand there are many film-stars of Hollywood
that have been frozen, hoping to be rejuvenated in a later century.
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However, if a soul is immortal, there is no escape from our deeds .. good or bad.
That corresponds to present reality .. where eventually, bad deeds get caught up with.
..so philosophically, I don't see that the doctrine makes any sense .. there is only heaven
and no hell .. and we can apparently escape any consequence like Hitler, who topped himself.
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It's not so much being forced as 'seeing the light'
But that's mental instability, among other things – it's becoming subject to illusion, or subject to the archon of this world – death – in the view that death is the best solution all round.
Yerse ... and Jesus had something to say about that (riches, I mean).Rich people often want to live forever .. I understand there are many film-stars of Hollywood
that have been frozen, hoping to be rejuvenated in a later century.
Quite right. There is a process of purification.
Yes and no ... our present reality still hankers after retribution. We require suffering as part of the process – we feel short-changed otherwise.
But that's not the doctrine.
1: There is heaven and hell.
2: Hell is a temporary condition until the summation of the Age.
2a: It my well be that Heven is equally temporary, until the summation of the Age.
(In that Jesus returns, a New Jerusalem, and then the summation of the age.)
3: Hitler will not have escaped the consequences of his actions.
Therefore, we assume a lot of purification necessary, although we can also see that he was not in his right mind (being an addict, and off his rocker) and thus there are mitigating circumstances.
But whet we really face is not what God thinks is just, but what we think is just.
I think if something is so utterly corrupt that, after the purifying fire, there's actually no vestige of what once there was surviving the process, then it's non-existence.
If God is just, then perpetual punishment with no remittance, and no chance of change or repentance, is disproportionate and unjust.
Again, if no good comes out of it, I cannot see why God would will it, as God wills only the good?
It is for the evangelicals.
Those who do not 'believe in Jesus' will cease to exist.
OK
We all know that G-d is Holy, perfect.
..but I don't see G-d as a person who sentences people to eternal punishment.
..or sentences people to eternal paradise, for that matter.
We reap what we sow .. it's all about the nature of a soul .. and the fact that it does not
disappear upon physical death.
Ummm .. G-d allows evil in this present life .. n'est pas?
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I don't see why it doesn't make sense to you?
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Well, the response is to the doctrine of conditional immortality
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No, most evangelicals believe in eternal conscious torment in hell
More heterodox groups like SDAs, JWS, Christadelphians, and the descendants of the Armstrong churches, believe in conditional immortality, where the wages of sin = death.
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If you don't believe in eternal punishment, or eternal paradise, or conditional immortality, what IS your theory about what happens to a soul in the afterlife?
It's not borne out in reality ..
..it's like some sort of "fairyland" where all live happily ever after.
I have no theory..
..but I believe in life after physical death, and that people will not be wronged.
We will reap what we sow .. much like as in this life, with the caveat that our
deeds can no longer be hidden.
Only 16% of self-identified Christians in the United States believe in the Trinity, according to a 2025 study by the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University.
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Most Americans Don't Believe in This Biblical Principle
A new study reveals that a shocking amount of Christians do not believe in the Trinity. Conducted by the Cultural Research Center (CRC)...
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OK, my bad ... I was reply to @muhammad_isa from my perspective.
Yeah ... OK ... I don't agree.
Well I don't agree with 'sentences' either, and I don't agree with eternal punishment because that's not what Scripture says.
Nor do I agree that God would set up an eschatalogical condition that was fundamentally unjust. Eternal punishment for a temporal wrong – no matter how wrong that might be – with no opportunity to learn, repent or reform – is fundamentally not 'just' – it's a very poor God who can't come up with something better than that.
OK, but is it 'locked' in the sense that it cannot repent? That it cannot be enlightened to see the ill it has done, and worse, when enlightened to see the ill it has done, is offered no chance of repentance or remorse, but is punished anyway.
I do think we reap what we sow, I just don't think we reap it eternally, toewards no good end and for no good reason whatsoever.
Yes ... and God allows repentance ...Ummm .. G-d allows evil in this present life .. n'est pas?
That's debatable..
No, of course not..
..and again, it depends on the definition of 'eternity' .. we've already covered that.
Cannot .. or will not?
Yes .. it's very sad isn't it.
..that people refuse to repent.
If a person can't repent in this life, then what makes you think that they would repent after their death?
I have never claimed otherwise.
What does the person believe happens to them after death?
Clearly. I know what I believe.
Let me be clear, I'm not denying 'punishment' – as you say, 'we reap what we sow', rather, what I am saying is that 'eternal' is a well-documented error of translation from Greek to Latin, and 'punishment' is only just, or valid, when it is curative, restorative, or purgative, or what have you; that is, when there is a positive and beneficial outcome as a result.
Without that, it seems vindictive to me, serving no good purpose at all.
And I've made my position clear on that point, too.
Well if will not, then I do not see how that entity can survive in any meaningful form – as God holds all things in existence.
Exactly.
I think, faced with the undeniable truth, then how can they not? But if they refuse to acknowledge what is indisputable, then again we're talking of an entity so corrupt that it's ceased to function as a rational creature. In which case, again, punishment would be an irrational response, because it's not going to achieve anything ...
Well if they can't repent, then punishment for not repenting would be unjust.
I rather think it's because they're obdurate, they refuse to repent in this life because they deny the reason to repent. Hard to do that when you're face-to-face with it ...
Well there you go ... in thios world we can delude ourselves, in that, there is no delusion, so then we're faced with the sum of our errors, as it were.
What difference does that make?
Well, there you go then..
A person in prison in this life continues to exist .. and they can repent of their crime (or not).
If G-d willed, they would not exist (if they refused to repent).
..but that is not reality.
That is not borne out by reality.
People DO refuse to repent .. and I do not believe it is because they have no conscience.
They just ignore it, as their soul is corrupt.
Again, you view "punishment" as if "a person called G-d" is responsible for it. (metes it out)
As G-d has given US the responsibility, then we are responsible for our own souls.
I couldn't agree more.
Perhaps you can ask satan why he "cuts off his nose to spite his face".
I see .. but imagine the following scenario..
A person refuses to repent in this life, and continually commits crimes and is repetitively imprisoned.
Upon their death, they claim to repent (to free themselves), and they join those in paradise..
What happens if that person who repented continues to commit crimes in paradise?
I find it illogical. I do NOT believe that a person who is given multiple chances to repent is going
to change. Life is serious .. and we have been warned.
WE are responsible for the consequences .. and not G-d.
G-d is Oft-Forgiving, Merciful.
..but the non-repentant sinner has cast himself out .. proved not to be trustworthy.
According to you, a soul is manufactured somehow by G-d .. easy come .. easy go.
I do NOT believe that .. I believe that the physical body expires, but NOT the soul.
Can (or will) an evil person, such as satan, repent after their death?
I have no idea .. but I take the warning seriously, and prefer to avoid finding out..