What evidence would you accept?

[Thomas]

I would then suggest we add love to the concept,

I would suggest you don't, as Divine Love transcends all. Anything else is muddying the waters.

as God's Covenant does offer that God will never leave us alone ...

Why do you keep saying things that Scripture tell me, as if I don't know it?

"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you" (John 14:18) – if I have Christ, I need no other.

The "New Heaven" being the new revelation, the Word of God from the celestial kingdom and the "New Earth", the laws applicable for the age, enable the unity of humanity as one fold under one shepherd.

This rather comes across as Baha'i spin on Christian Scripture. It's clearly not what the text is saying – it's sophistry.

 

[Thomas]

Unity in our diversity, as quoted in your reply, is a founding principle of the Baha'i Message

Then why do you keep trying to undermine my belief?

You clearly keep making wrong judgements about what I believe, as I've pointed out above.

And then you compound this by offering me quotes from your authorities, that I see as entirely unoriginal if not simply plagiarism, and see no reason to regard them as 'revelation' or, indeed, anything new at all?

I'm afraid I have more faith in the Baha'i faith than I have faith in you, as I am sure that in all the Baha'i writings there is more to offer than a continual regurgitation of prior Scriptures.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Then why do you keep trying to undermine my belief?

You clearly keep making wrong judgements about what I believe, as I've pointed out above.

And then you compound this by offering me quotes from your authorities, that I see as entirely unoriginal if not simply plagiarism, and see no reason to regard them as 'revelation' or, indeed, anything new at all?

I'm afraid I have more faith in the Baha'i faith than I have faith in you, as I am sure that in all the Baha'i writings there is more to offer than a continual regurgitation of prior Scriptures.

If a Jew was to look at Christ as coming from the one G-d, is it undermining their faith, or is it fulfilling their faith?

No Baha'i is trying to undermine anyone's faith, we are all so different, all with a different nature and nurture, but we have a unity in our diversity. All faiths have this.

So, I see a unity in our diversity, without acknowledging the one God in all the Messengers, is not a lasting unity and not a true unity in our diversity, this is the age of the One Fold and One Shepherd, which is G-d.

At best, a unity without acknowledging G-d as the founder of all faiths, is only a tolerance of other faiths, a tolerance that lasts only while things are comfortable. The world shows us now how fragile that tolerance really is, it's not a unity.

It's not an entirely bad thing, as most likely the lesser peace will be founded on this type of tolerance, but on the other hand, many in the world are tired of what religion has to offer, and they will try to rid the world of such deceptions.

I will move on Thomas. I hope you and all remain safe and happy.

G-d bless all. Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

If a Jew was to look at Christ as coming from the one G-d, is it undermining their faith, or is it fulfilling their faith?

Neither. It's broadening their faith.

Whereas it seems to me your message is those faiths needs 'fulfilling' via the Baha'i scriptures. That 'progrtessive revelation' renders their sacra doctrina as out-moded and perhaps even defective, in need of Baha'i commentary to make sense, to make relevant, or to correct errors.

No Baha'i is trying to undermine anyone's faith ...

Supplant then, that's probably the more accurate term.

So, I see a unity in our diversity, without acknowledging the one God in all the Messengers, is not a lasting unity and not a true unity in our diversity, this is the age of the One Fold and One Shepherd, which is G-d.

Which suggests you only acknowledge diversity within what you believe, rather than alongside it.

At best, a unity without acknowledging G-d as the founder of all faiths, is only a tolerance of other faiths, a tolerance that lasts only while things are comfortable. The world shows us now how fragile that tolerance really is, it's not a unity.

Nor is it true tolerance. But what you're proposing is not tolerance, but rather implies an intolerance toward any belief unlike your own.

It's not an entirely bad thing, as most likely the lesser peace ...

Oh, Tony ...

 

[RabbiO]

@Thomas -

Apparently @Tony Bristow-Stagg does not own a mirror.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Nor is it true tolerance. But what you're proposing is not tolerance, but rather implies an intolerance toward any belief unlike your own

Yes it is not tolerance, is a subjective personal submission to all the past Prophets and Messengers, under new guidance from G-d. As Baha'i our law is to not partake of material war any more, how can one hate and war against another faith when we realise they are all from the One G-d? The battle is always subjective and unleashed by the "Word" given by G-d.

Oh, Tony ...

Oh, Thomas ...... I can pass on only what is already written, they are not my warnings, they are written by G-d.

For us, truth is subjective, its a G-d given choice, as we are not the source of all truth. (I can post multipul and many lengthy quotes for all my given snippets)

@Thomas -

Apparently @Tony Bristow-Stagg does not own a mirror.

We all own and need to polish the mirror that is our own self, let the one without any sin cast the first stone.

Shoghi Effendi summed up the exact stance that any Baha'i should embrace and if they were mature enough, to impart only to those that wish to hear.

I will put it under Spoilers, so people can choose to see what that summary is.

It is the Evidence I have accepted.

Spoiler: Shoghi Effendi Quote

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.

A Revelation, hailed as the promise and crowning glory of past ages and centuries, as the consummation of all the Dispensations within the Adamic Cycle, inaugurating an era of at least a thousand years’ duration, and a cycle destined to last no less than five thousand centuries, signalizing the end of the Prophetic Era and the beginning of the Era of Fulfillment, unsurpassed alike in the duration of its Author’s ministry and the fecundity and splendor of His mission—such a Revelation was, as already noted, born amidst the darkness of a subterranean dungeon in Tihrán—an abominable pit that had once served as a reservoir of water for one of the public baths of the city.” (God Passes By, p. 100)
Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103

Peace to all, Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is the Evidence I have accepted.

I have no problem with whatever falsehood you believe in. The problem is that you repeat it a million times in various forums.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I have no problem with whatever falsehood you believe in. The problem is that you repeat it a million times in various forums.

I better get a move on then, as apprently, that is not yet enough.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

Hi Tony —

Yes it is not tolerance, is a subjective personal submission to all the past Prophets and Messengers, under new guidance from G-d.

Ooh, be careful, old friend as, tragically, that road has been well trod by those who make that claim to endorse and justify a multitude of sins and atrocities down through history. That's a sure road to those same horrors: "It's for your own good" and "This hurts me more than it hurts you" – both of which are rarely true.

Subjective personal submission is just that, it is subjective and personal, like prayer. It is never a reason for, nor a justification of, inflicting oneself or one's beliefs upon another.

It is the meaning of the greater jihad (al-jihad al-akbar), the spiritual struggle against one's own lower desires, ego, and moral failings. It is when we fail there, as history's bloody handprint shows, the lesser jihad (al-jihad al-asghar), invariably leads to intolerance and violence against one's neighbour.

Note:
Please read my use of Arabic terms as a reference for a principle applicable in all religions, this is not directed at historical Islam – simply that the Arabic seems the most succinct.

Oh, Thomas ...... I can pass on only what is already written, they are not my warnings, they are written by G-d.

The 'warnings' written by God in my religion (and in the Abrahamics generally, I think), are two-fold:
1: Love God, and repent of sin;
2: Love my neighbour, that I might be worthy of God's.

Love conquers all and everything; Love makes the world anew; Love never coerces.

We all own and need to polish the mirror that is our own self, let the one without any sin cast the first stone.

I rather think the point here is – the one without sin does not cast stones:
"Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee? Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more."
Neither condemnation nor judgement; no force, no coercion, no intolerance ...

Shoghi Effendi summed up the exact stance that any Baha'i should embrace and if they were mature enough, to impart only to those that wish to hear.
I will put it under Spoilers, so people can choose to see what that summary is.

Perhaps wiser if you did not, Tony, but we can't put spilled milk back in the bottle.

If you choose to discuss that text and my issues and objections, then OK, but as it's your sacra doctrina, I have no desire to cause offence and see little value in the exercise. Suffice to say that I would have thought any Abrahamic believer will observe their own questions and contradictions.

Peace to all, Regards Tony

I wish that were true.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I wish that were true

It could be, most people from all faiths want it to be, but do not know how to acheive it globally across all faiths.

This quote sums up my journey across many forums, why I am sharing what Baha'u'llah offered.

"...The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded..." Baha'u'llah

Your wish, my wish, all that wish for peace, ultimately requires our acceptance of that principle.

How this greater change will commence is foretold in calamities, as it appears that is what it takes for the pillars of orthodoxy to fall.

Thomas, I would have hoped that discussions from the heart would assist change, but I have found it is true, only G-d can give to our hearts, the desire to change.

If we are not looking for it, how can we consider it? Matthew 24:42-44

The quotes above from Baha'u'llah and the Bible indicate that change will need to happen.

In the end, Jesus gave advice, as did Baha'u'llah, what we should do when when one shares the "counsels which the Pen of the Most High" has revealed and no one wants to listen.....

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

It is a lack of wisdom on my part that I continued, my shortcomings extended the stay.

I hope you cans see why I stayed though, it is love and peace in my heart that prolonged the stay, even if I transgressed the given wisdom.

Stay well, safe and happy Thomas, and same to all who visit Interfaith.org Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

"...The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded..."

That seals it. Unity cannot be achieved. Learn to live with diversity (as India does).

 

[iBrian]

That seals it. Unity cannot be achieved. Learn to live with diversity (as India does).

We have diversity here. But not everyone here insists on telling everyone else here their beliefs are false.

 

[RabbiO]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg -

I have never questioned or criticized your good intent. What I have criticized, here and elsewhere, is your inability to see that in your comments you embody the same negative traits that you find so terrible and that you believe can be found in others who do not share your faith, who remain unconvinced by your beliefs.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

We have diversity here. But not everyone here insists on telling everyone else here their beliefs are false.

The key is that the foundations are not false, they are all from the one source of truth, G-d.

All that is good and pure that is produced from all faiths is embraced.

@Tony Bristow-Stagg -

I have never questioned or criticized your good intent. What I have criticized, here and elsewhere, is your inability to see that in your comments you embody the same negative traits that you find so terrible and that you believe can be found in others who do not share your faith, who remain unconvinced by your beliefs.

All G-d given Faiths since the dawn of our consciousness as human beings have been born in truth as announced by the Prophets.

In time, the records also show that humans depart from the given intent and God sends another Prophet.

All those that move away from what G-d has given, will not accept what the new Prophet has given, thus we have the G-d given truth and the truth that men have altered and embraced clashing in every age.

The few that accept the change are then tasked to share the Message. The records of the holy books tell us how the few are seen and accepted by the majority that has not embraced the new.

How do the few control the perceptions of the majority? How do the few, tasked with sharing the message, tell the majority that they have rejected the very source of their own faiths?

Isaiah 45:7 unfolds in this world as it always will. We embrace what G-d has given and we move away from what G-d has given.

I understand why you see my stated certainty of faith, as an undesirable trait.

As I see we are worshipping and serving the same G-d, and others do not, there has to errors or misconceptions with one of the participants, and just as possible, with both.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

The key is that the foundations are not false, they are all from the one source of truth, G-d.

God, soul, themselves are not proved entities, what to talk of prophets, sons, messengers or manifestations!

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

God, soul, themselves are not proved entities, what to talk of prophets, sons, messengers or manifestations!

It is what it is, I am only a participant in the given journey, that is this material life.

See it as you choose to, as all others can also do.

Meanwhile all the good that can happen, to bring about the unity of all humanity, will have already been given as the required path.

The warnings have also been copiously and fairly given, none more comprehensive than "The Promised Day Is Come".

If one reads reads the opening passages, one can see what is happening to the world, in fact the warnings given in this book are copious and is but one source, there are many more.

I can only pass all this on. People can take it on board, or leave it. In the end all that is written in that book, did happen and will happen.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Promised Day", how many times we have been promised that day! Every scammer says so.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

"Promised Day", how many times we have been promised that day! Every scammer says so.

Everytime the promise is fulfilled (which is about once in a thousand years), it is met with the same accusations as well. That is because peoples expectations have been veiled by doctrine that has shaped their expectations.

All the best and I hope you remain safe and happy. Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Everytime the promise is fulfilled (which is about once in a thousand years), it is met with the same accusations as well.

What promise is fulfilled? Another person claiming to be a prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi sent by Allah without any evidence. It will surely be met with accusations because these people fail to give any kind of evidence. And how does it affect the world? New conflicts. The world has not change, will not ever change. The 'Promised Day' is a mirage. The scam is more than 2,000 years old (Jews have waited for the Messiah).

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What promise is fulfilled? Another person claiming to be a prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi sent by Allah without any evidence. It will surely be met with accusations because these people fail to give any kind of evidence. And how does it affect the world? New conflicts. The world has not change, will not ever change. The 'Promised Day' is a mirage. The scam is more than 2,000 years old (Jews have waited for the Messiah).

Some people will never accept the given evidences.

Yet G-d works in mysterious ways and we can never judge another. People can change their long held views in the blink of an eye. Many that never call upon God, do so at the hour of extreme hardships, or pending death and find faith. Some who have claimed faith all their lives at such times, choose to turn away and fall into the nethermost fire!

Only G-d knows our hearts, is always there and always calling us to find our innermost selves.

(Edit - Read this after posting and thought, well it's applicable to your comments, that you give often)

"Dost thou believe thou hast the power to frustrate His Will, to hinder Him from executing His judgement, or to deter Him from exercising His sovereignty? Pretendest thou that aught in the heavens or in the earth can resist His Faith? No, by Him Who is the Eternal Truth! Nothing whatsoever in the whole of creation can thwart His Purpose . . .."
"Know thou, moreover, that He it is Who hath, by His own behest, created all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth. How can, then, the thing that hath been created at His bidding prevail against Him?"
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 219-220)

Regards Tony