What evidence would you accept?

[Lovingkindness]

Likewise Thomas, but the difference is I look for it all in every God given tradition, inclusive of Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, to name but a few that God has sent to humanity to save us from our own selves.

The proofs that the "One Fold" and One Shepherd", is inclusive of all, are now copious and beyond any excuse of non acceptance.

So now Gods major plan will bring humanity to building a "Lesser Peace", after these events bring is to the brink of destruction.

Abdu'l-Baha came to America and Europe to warn of this age, spoke to the churches and synagogues, pleading for people to see the oneness of humanity and the urgent need for global co-operation. Far to few respondents was the result.

Humanity met the thief in the night and did not recognise the significance of tye given Message.

"Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into."

(Still here, as I respond to your last posts)

God bless all, Regards Tony

Greetings I hope you are well and happy. Buddha is not a God, he was very clear many times he was not. He was very often if he was he would just say no. Once a man kept pushing “ if you are not a god what are you”. He said I am a man, a man that is awake. Buddha would not answer if there is or is not a god. May you and all beings be well and happy free from suffering and the causes of suffering.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Greetings I hope you are well and happy. Buddha is not a God, he was very clear many times he was not. He was very often if he was he would just say no. Once a man kept pushing “ if you are not a god what are you”. He said I am a man, a man that is awake. Buddha would not answer if there is or is not a god. May you and all beings be well and happy free from suffering and the causes of suffering.

Greetings, I hope you are well and happy.

Yes Buddha was not a God. A Baha'i sees Buddha as Prophet from God (All Baha'is will have different views on this). This is the station where Buddha was "Awake".

Baha'u'llah gives the same statements in a different way and explains this in the Kitab-i-iqan.

In the "Awake" state all the Messengers, such as Buddha, Krishna, Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad, they are all One.

Then there is the station of distinction, Baha'u'llah explained it like this...

"...Viewed in the light of their second station—the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards—they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution, and complete self-effacement. Even as He saith: “I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you.”…"

Always happy to chat, Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

No doubt, but it appears your issue is not with believers, but what they believe, in that a belief is any faith other than your own is misplaced, that those faiths are to some degree deficient or indeed defective.
²

And by so doing I hope you see the error.


I could list a host of references – but that's not the point, is it?


And I think that "Glory' has a far broader context than you seem to allow.


So does that not speak to you of the error of supercessionism?


Yes!

So now do you see why your view that other traditions are in some manner defective, deficient or incomplete; that your Tradition surpasses and/or supersedes all others, is an error?

Who am I to say there is any deficiency, incompleteness or error? I am lower than the dust that Christ walked upon.

It is God that sends the Messengers, it is God that corrects our misunderstandings and errors in the given Message

If I pass that God given Message on, then surely that is a given bounty, not an error. Jesus said one must pickup the Cross to follow him, that obviously means that on the path of acceptance, many who are in error, who will not accept the new message, they will see that as a wrong choice.

Supercessionism is but doctrine, what does God say?

Example is the Sermon of the Mountain
Mathew chapters 5 to 7

We can consider who were the blessed when they were charged with spreading the Message.

Why is there a Blessed people? Was it those that chose to be Christians (those that accepted Christ) blessed at this time and not the Jews?

Jesus gave us the key “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill".

So what would one expect from a Baha'i, knowing they see Baha'u'llah offered He is the One Jesus Christ and all the Prophets have Promised? After all it was openly declared to POPE PIUS IX.

If one reads that linked Tablet, does that not impart a Message? That message was not mine to give, but only to share.

It's not an error that I share it, as I am only passing on that Baha'u'llah did not come not to abolish, but to fulfill.

It is only seen as an error if one chooses not to believe the truth that Tablet contains, which is logically your stance.

So it is not personal attacks on any people of any faith Thomas and never will be. God is the judge and we are all judged by the "Word of God".

This is an extract from the end of the quoted Tablet

"... Verily, the day of ingathering is come, and all things have been separated from each other. He hath stored away that which He chose in the vessels of justice, and cast into fire that which befitteth it. Thus hath it been decreed by your Lord, the Mighty, the Loving, in this promised Day. He, verily, ordaineth what He pleaseth. There is none other God save He, the Almighty, the All-Compelling."

Regards Tony

 

[Lovingkindness]

Greetings, I hope you are well and happy.

Yes Buddha was not a God. A Baha'i sees Buddha as Prophet from God (All Baha'is will have different views on this). This is the station where Buddha was "Awake".

Baha'u'llah gives the same statements in a different way and explains this in the Kitab-i-iqan.

In the "Awake" state all the Messengers, such as Buddha, Krishna, Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad, they are all One.

Then there is the station of distinction, Baha'u'llah explained it like this...

"...Viewed in the light of their second station—the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards—they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution, and complete self-effacement. Even as He saith: “I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you.”…"

Always happy to chat, Regards Tonyy

Greetings my friend. Yes I understand what Baha'i

Greetings, I hope you are well and happy.

Yes Buddha was not a God. A Baha'i sees Buddha as Prophet from God (All Baha'is will have different views on this). This is the station where Buddha was "Awake".

Baha'u'llah gives the same statements in a different way and explains this in the Kitab-i-iqan.

In the "Awake" state all the Messengers, such as Buddha, Krishna, Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad, they are all One.

Then there is the station of distinction, Baha'u'llah explained it like this...

"...Viewed in the light of their second station—the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards—they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution, and complete self-effacement. Even as He saith: “I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you.”…"

Always happy to chat, Regards Tony

greetings my friend. Yes I understand what

Baháʼu'lláh​

Greetings, I hope you are well and happy.

Yes Buddha was not a God. A Baha'i sees Buddha as Prophet from God (All Baha'is will have different views on this). This is the station where Buddha was "Awake".

Baha'u'llah gives the same statements in a different way and explains this in the Kitab-i-iqan.

In the "Awake" state all the Messengers, such as Buddha, Krishna, Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad, they are all One.

Then there is the station of distinction, Baha'u'llah explained it like this...

"...Viewed in the light of their second station—the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards—they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution, and complete self-effacement. Even as He saith: “I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you.”…"

Always happy to chat, Regards Tony

hello my friend, I hope you are well and happy. Yes I know what Baháʼu'lláh believed and followers believe. I just do not share his/ your belief, but completely respect you do. I respect all beings right to believe as they wish as long as that not they cause suffering to anyone. Baháʼu'lláh Did not form what he did to cause anyone suffering. Much the opposite. Please be well and happy.

 

[Lovingkindness]

Who am I to say there is any deficiency, incompleteness or error? I am lower than the dust that Christ walked upon.

It is God that sends the Messengers, it is God that corrects our misunderstandings and errors in the given Message

If I pass that God given Message on, then surely that is a given bounty, not an error. Jesus said one must pickup the Cross to follow him, that obviously means that on the path of acceptance, many who are in error, who will not accept the new message, they will see that as a wrong choice.

Supercessionism is but doctrine, what does God say?

Example is the Sermon of the Mountain
Mathew chapters 5 to 7

We can consider who were the blessed when they were charged with spreading the Message.

Why is there a Blessed people? Was it those that chose to be Christians (those that accepted Christ) blessed at this time and not the Jews?

Jesus gave us the key “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill".

So what would one expect from a Baha'i, knowing they see Baha'u'llah offered He is the One Jesus Christ and all the Prophets have Promised? After all it was openly declared to POPE PIUS IX.

If one reads that linked Tablet, does that not impart a Message? That message was not mine to give, but only to share.

It's not an error that I share it, as I am only passing on that Baha'u'llah did not come not to abolish, but to fulfill.

It is only seen as an error if one chooses not to believe the truth that Tablet contains, which is logically your stance.

So it is not personal attacks on any people of any faith Thomas and never will be. God is the judge and we are all judged by the "Word of God".

This is an extract from the end of the quoted Tablet

"... Verily, the day of ingathering is come, and all things have been separated from each other. He hath stored away that which He chose in the vessels of justice, and cast into fire that which befitteth it. Thus hath it been decreed by your Lord, the Mighty, the Loving, in this promised Day. He, verily, ordaineth what He pleaseth. There is none other God save He, the Almighty, the All-Compelling."

Regards Tony

Thomas was this to me? I insulted no one?

 

[Ahanu]

Mark your words. You believe in plurality above which is your God.

I do not believe in a “plurality above.” We both agree that at the level of the Divine Essence, there is absolute unity. The Absolute has no parts and no peers.

You say Brahman does nothing and creation is an illusion. So why does the illusion exist at all if Brahman is perfect and actionless? Where does maya come from? Who is experiencing the illusion?

The Absolute does not need to do anything, but the very nature of absolute perfection is that it shines. The sun does not need to shine, but shining is its very nature. The Hidden Treasure tradition explains that this shining is ultimately because of an overflowing of divine love.

'Adviata' Hinduism does not accept plurality other than as an illusion.
"A noble and learned brahmin, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater, a wise person sees them as equal" Gita 5.18

I think we somewhat agree. Bahá’u’lláh wrote that a true seeker “will discover in all things the mysteries of Divine Revelation.” The light of the Absolute shines on the brahmin, the dog, the elephant, and the stone. This is what we call Manifestational Oneness (tawḥíd-i-shuhúdí).

The light that shines on every being is equal. I agree in this sense. However, the capacity of each mirror is not equal. A stone reflects the Absolute by simply existing. A dog reflects it through life and instinct. A human being is capable of reflecting the Absolute through conscious knowledge and justice. It is not a case of being special out of arrogance or something like this. Think of it as a big responsibility.

Human beings are human beings. Why do you see them as something special. Some will be good, some will be bad. The coming of the so-called prophets/sons/messengers/manifesttions/Mahdis/Imams has not changed this.
Human brain can visualize the absolute. But our minds are so filled with sticky garbage that we are not able to realize that.

The Infinite cannot be contained by the finite. If you can visualize it, you have merely created a concept in your own mind. As you said, the mind is full of sticky garbage.

You pretty much explain why we need Messengers: the mind is full of sticky garbage. We need a divine teacher completely free of sticky gabage in the world of Vyavahārikā, because, in the Vyavahārikā, we need an objective we can see.

Oh, teachings! We have a saying in Hindi, "Par upadesha kushal bahutere" (There are many adepts at advising others).

The teachings of Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad built entire civilizations. They transformed the ethics of billions of people, and they provided the very concepts of justice and compassion we use today to judge what is good or bad. They were exiled, tortured, poisoned, and crucified for their teachings. Their sacrifice helps aid us in clearing away sticky garbage.

That is the easiest thing to do.
Unless you give evidence for them (that there is a God and that he is sending them here), why should God, soul and messengers be accepted?

In the Kitáb-i-Íqán, Bahá’u’lláh states that the ultimate evidence of the sun is its own light. We have to have the right kind of evidence, so mine include the following: life, teachings, and impact. No magic tricks are needed.

“Abandoning the speculative, ontological 'substance Christology' of the classical period, Baha’u’llah describes the 'quickening power' unleashed by Christ’s sacrifice and its impact on civilization . . . the pervasive power of Christ’s influence lent a cultural vigor to the West, contributing to its masterpieces of art, its discoveries of science, its human values and even its temporal power . . .”
-Christopher Buck

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. … The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit. We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified. … He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
-Baha'u'llah

“We speak today very easily, if not always sincerely, of the intrinsic dignity of every human person. For us, this is merely a received piety, and one of immemorial authority. And yet, if we take the time to wonder just how old a moral intuition it is, there is a good chance that our historical imagination will carry us only as far back as the 'Age of Enlightenment' and the epoch of the 'Rights of Man.' But our modern notion that there is such a thing as innate human worth, residing in every individual of every class and culture, is at best the very late consequence of a cultural, conceptual, and moral revolution that erupted many centuries earlier, and in the middle of a world that was anything but hospitable to its principles.”
-David Bentley Hart

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Thomas was this to me? I insulted no one?

Greetings, no it was not to you.

Regards Tony

 

[Lovingkindness]

I do not believe in a “plurality above.” We both agree that at the level of the Divine Essence, there is absolute unity. The Absolute has no parts and no peers.

You say Brahman does nothing and creation is an illusion. So why does the illusion exist at all if Brahman is perfect and actionless? Where does maya come from? Who is experiencing the illusion?

The Absolute does not need to do anything, but the very nature of absolute perfection is that it shines. The sun does not need to shine, but shining is its very nature. The Hidden Treasure tradition explains that this shining is ultimately because of an overflowing of divine love.



I think we somewhat agree. Bahá’u’lláh wrote that a true seeker “will discover in all things the mysteries of Divine Revelation.” The light of the Absolute shines on the brahmin, the dog, the elephant, and the stone. This is what we call Manifestational Oneness (tawḥíd-i-shuhúdí).

The light that shines on every being is equal. I agree in this sense. However, the capacity of each mirror is not equal. A stone reflects the Absolute by simply existing. A dog reflects it through life and instinct. A human being is capable of reflecting the Absolute through conscious knowledge and justice. It is not a case of being special out of arrogance or something like this. Think of it as a big responsibility.



The Infinite cannot be contained by the finite. If you can visualize it, you have merely created a concept in your own mind. As you said, the mind is full of sticky garbage.

You pretty much explain why we need Messengers: the mind is full of sticky garbage. We need a divine teacher completely free of sticky gabage in the world of Vyavahārikā, because, in the Vyavahārikā, we need an objective we can see.



The teachings of Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad built entire civilizations. They transformed the ethics of billions of people, and they provided the very concepts of justice and compassion we use today to judge what is good or bad. They were exiled, tortured, poisoned, and crucified for their teachings. Their sacrifice helps aid us in clearing away sticky garbage.



In the Kitáb-i-Íqán, Bahá’u’lláh states that the ultimate evidence of the sun is its own light. We have to have the right kind of evidence, so mine include the following: life, teachings, and impact. No magic tricks are needed.

“Abandoning the speculative, ontological 'substance Christology' of the classical period, Baha’u’llah describes the 'quickening power' unleashed by Christ’s sacrifice and its impact on civilization . . . the pervasive power of Christ’s influence lent a cultural vigor to the West, contributing to its masterpieces of art, its discoveries of science, its human values and even its temporal power . . .”
-Christopher Buck

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. … The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit. We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified. … He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
-Baha'u'llah

“We speak today very easily, if not always sincerely, of the intrinsic dignity of every human person. For us, this is merely a received piety, and one of immemorial authority. And yet, if we take the time to wonder just how old a moral intuition it is, there is a good chance that our historical imagination will carry us only as far back as the 'Age of Enlightenment' and the epoch of the 'Rights of Man.' But our modern notion that there is such a thing as innate human worth, residing in every individual of every class and culture, is at best the very late consequence of a cultural, conceptual, and moral revolution that erupted many centuries earlier, and in the middle of a world that was anything but hospitable to its principles.”
-David Bentley Hart

I’m not sure why I am included in this conversation.

 

[Lovingkindness]

Greetings, no it was not to you.

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony.

 

[TheLightWithin]

G-d has always given Prophets and Messengers in a manner that requires a choice, that will never change.

What choice? Choice to follow? We can choose to follow a profession or a social group or all sorts of things...
Surely you don't mean to imply that belief is a choice???

 

[TheLightWithin]

From where did the mechanism of "genes" originate?

I'm not sure what the question means, or whether I have the chops in biochemistry to reply...
But here's something that addresses that at least obliquely

The origin of the first genomes | University of Oxford

www.ox.ac.uk

 

[TheLightWithin]

..not that I know of.
If you think about it, women were very vulnerable up until the advent of contraceptives..
..particularly the pill.
The world we live in today is descending into chaos .. traditions and norms often discarded.

..that has nothing to do with human equality .. women can be just as pious as men ..
..if not more so.

I'm not sure I see the connection in those thoughts
It just sounds like a list of thoughts

But to me the lack of women messengers could easily mean that women messengers were ignored, or that many or maybe even all messengers were self serving males or misused by other self serving males

 

[TheLightWithin]

I’m not sure why I am included in this conversation.

It's just comments coming up on the thread you replied to.

 

[Ahanu]

I'm not sure I see the connection in those thoughts
It just sounds like a list of thoughts

But to me the lack of women messengers could easily mean that women messengers were ignored, or that many or maybe even all messengers were self serving males or misused by other self serving males

Many Native American Baha’is believe White Buffalo Calf Woman was a Messenger.

Čhaŋnúŋpa waŋží yuhá ílotake čiŋ, míksuya opáǧi yo!
aéj Héčhanuŋ kiŋ,
táku yačhíŋ kiŋ,
iyéčhetu kte ló. aéj új

If you sit down with a pipe.
Remember me.
When you do that,
then the things you want will come true.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What choice? Choice to follow? We can choose to follow a profession or a social group or all sorts of things...
Surely you don't mean to imply that belief is a choice???

Yes, faith is a free-will choice.

Here is but an example.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

And another

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

That is the choice given by Jesus Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[TheLightWithin]

Yes, faith is a free-will choice.

Not exactly. There is a doctrine within Christianity that faith is a gift from God.
In regular life, you can't choose what you believe as such. You believe what you find convincing / what you think is true.

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

That refers to behavior.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Not exactly. There is a doctrine within Christianity that faith is a gift from God.
In regular life, you can't choose what you believe as such. You believe what you find convincing / what you think is true.

That refers to behavior.

Yes faith is a gift, not everyone is open to receive the gift, thus they will not consider making the choice. Those that do make the choice have been guided by their choice of behaviours.

"Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation..." - Bahá’u’lláh, The Dawnbreakers, p. 586

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

” We both agree that at the level of the Divine Essence, there is absolute unity." The Absolute has no parts and no peers.

You say Brahman does nothing and creation is an illusion. So why does the illusion exist at all if Brahman is perfect and actionless? Where does maya come from? Who is experiencing the illusion?
.. but the very nature of absolute perfection is that it shines. The sun does not need to shine, but shining is its very nature.

I think we somewhat agree. Bahá’u’lláh wrote that a true seeker “will discover in all things the mysteries of Divine Revelation.” The light of the Absolute shines on the brahmin, the dog, the elephant, and the stone.

The teachings of Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad built entire civilizations.

I never said, I have never believed in any 'divine essence' (after becoming an atheist). I see no such agreement. Yes, Brahman is indivisible.
The illusion is because of our limitations in perception and its interpretation. Our mind plays games with us.
What shines? Sun has to shine, because of their composition. To think that the sun shines because of any 'divine love' is absolute foolishness.

"The luminosity stays approximately constant as the temperature increases, with the ejected half of the Sun's mass becoming ionized into a planetary nebula as the exposed core reaches 30,000 K (53,500 °F), as if it is in a sort of blue loop. The final naked core, a white dwarf, will have a temperature of over 100,000 K (180,000 °F) and contain an estimated 54.05% of the Sun's present-day mass. Simulations indicate that the Sun may be among the least massive stars capable of forming a planetary nebula. The planetary nebula will disperse in about 10,000 years, but the white dwarf will survive for trillions of years before fading to a hypothetical super-dense black dwarf. As such, it would give off no more energy."

Sun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No, we have not agreed to anything. I would not call anything divine and I reject 'divine revelations' as 'sticky garbage' or a scam. I have not seen any brahmin or dog or elephant or stone shining.
The so-called messenger have themselves created/increased 'sticky garbage'. That is why Christians and Muslims fight. Bahais not being less than even 0.01% of the world's population hardly matter, though they play their pipes loudly.
Society knew what is good and what is bad even before these religions and messengers came up.

 

[Ahanu]

I never said, I have never believed in any 'divine essence' (after becoming an atheist). I see no such agreement.

You are the one using "Eko sad, dwiteeyo nasti" (What exists is one, there is no second) to refute Messengers. Now I know you are also in conflict with Advaita Vedanta, so no point in trying to find dialogue in your quotations, which you do not even agree with.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are the one using "Eko sad, dwiteeyo nasti" (What exists is one, there is no second) to refute Messengers. Now I know you are also in conflict with Advaita Vedanta, so no point in trying to find dialogue in your quotations, which you do not even agree with.

True, Brahman alone is what exists. Brahman is the stuff of universe. Brahman is not a God.
Since there is no God, how can there be messengers?
Yes, Advaita Hinduism has many strains, you can read about them at Vedanta - Wikipedia. My view is closest to that of Gaudapada and Sankara.
I deny any Gods, Goddesses and soul, because there is no evidence for them, and that it negates 'Advaita' (non-duality).