Jesus Mythical and Real?

[Thomas]

I would simply conclude your interpretation of 10.38 is problematic.

I find you interpretation understandably limited.

In John 17.21-23, Jesus uses the same language of mutual indwelling for his disciples ("that they may all be one, just as (kathōs) you, Father, are in me and I am in you"). Unlike later Christian tradition, Jesus clearly equates the type of unity he shares with the Father to the type of unity he wants for the disciples: "that they may be one, just as (καθὼς) we are one" (17.11).

In the Christian tradition, this parallels Paul's eschatology of 1 Corinthians 15.

If you dare claim the oneness in Chapter 10 means essence but the oneness in Chapter 17 means relational participation, you are admitting that the phrase does not inherently mean ontological equality.

We have two things here: How Jesus' audience heard His words, and how the Tradition understands them. The latter does not contradict the former, but rather illuminates the depth of meaning.

So, as you no doubt know, my belief is that, to quote the familiar aphorism "For God was made man that we might be made gods" (St. Athanasius, and so forth).

Only God can unite creatures to God; therefore, if Christ saves and deifies humanity, and unites all creatures in Himself, He must be fully and ontologically divine, and in that participation is an ontological union – all being arises in God, therefore God is in all being.

 

[Longfellow]

W-e-l-l ... "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1) and in 1 Corinthians 15:8 he says that Jesus "appeared also to me" which Paul regarded as comparable to the sightings by the disciples. I regard his own account as more reliable than the rather prosaic Luke in Acts.

I’m not thinking that Jesus did not appear to him. Just that if He did, it was not at that time on the road to Damascus.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..if Christ saves and deifies humanity, and unites all creatures in Himself..

What does that mean?
How does Jesus "save and deify" humanity .. as opposed to any other prophet
mentioned in the Bible?

 

[Longfellow]

You are qualifying 'divine revelation' according to a human norm. I regard that as a categorical error.

Do you mean that when God speaks directly to anyone, they always understand perfectly what He says? I can’t think of any counterexamples, but I’m not sure that’s true. Anyway, does Paul say that everything he says about Jesus was revealed to him by God?

Then you'd have to evidence that.

You make claims, but never validate them, so I find it hard to see them having any foundation.

I might argue sometimes, but I’m not here to try to convince anyone. I’m saying what looks to me like the best explanation for what we see in the Bible. It’s purely explanatory and not claiming any evidence other than how much and how well it explains what we see in the Bible. That's for each person to judge for themselves. Like I said, I'm just trying to find out if anyone has any reasons for thinking that what I'm saying is not true.

 

[Ahanu]

I think that's rather rude. Maybe you should pay closer attention to what I write?

Maybe you should stop writing ambiguously. “Not that He is claiming coequality . . . but they do see that He is claiming some order of divinity.” It clearly reads as follows: “It is a fact that Jesus is not claiming coequality, but the Judaeans do see him claiming some order of divinity.”

I think that's rather rude. Maybe you should pay closer attention to what I write?

I wrote in #31:
So, it might well be that they (the Judaeans) are angry with Him (Jesus) for seeking to displace them (the Judaeans), and so want Him (Jesus) dead on any grounds, or they (the Judaeans) actually see that He's (Jesus) claiming more than any man can legitimately claim for himself, in relation to the divine. He (Jesus) asks them (the Judaeans) why they (the Judaeans) should want to stone Him (Jesus):
" 'We stone you not on account of a good work, but rather on account of blasphemy, and because you who are a man make yourself out to be a god.' " (10:33)

They (the Judaeans) are not saying that Jesus claims to be God (cap G, HaShem), but that He (Jesus) is assuming a divine status in His (Jesus') unity with the Father. (The Judaeans are) Not (saying) that He (Jesus) is claiming coequality, coessentiality or consubstantiality, but they (the Judaeans) do see that He (Jesus) is claiming some order of divinity."

It's quite clear.

The fact you heavily annotated it shows it is not clear. You had to insert the words (The Judaeans are saying) to make it clear.

Well there you go – that should have alerted you to your mistake.

LOL! You require your reader to use a much later paragraph to figure out . . . Oh, forget it. I am done with this point, and I have nothing else to say about it.

 

[Thomas]

What does that mean?
How does Jesus "save and deify" humanity .. as opposed to any other prophet
mentioned in the Bible?

Because Christ is not like any other prophet mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Thomas]

Do you mean that when God speaks directly to anyone, they always understand perfectly what He says?

You think if God chooses to communicate with someone, He can't make Himself understood?

Anyway, does Paul say that everything he says about Jesus was revealed to him by God?

Paul himself says he does not claim every word is a direct revelation, eg. 1 Corinthians 7:12 "I, not the Lord". The Tradition reads a distinction between his apostolic judgments and direct revelation.

Generally, Paul's writings are focussed on 'his' gospel, and when he offers his counsel and judgements, he argues them in light of revelation.

It's clear that in some cases he speaks from a cultural background, such as the relations between men and women (not quite so misogynistic as sometimes painted). But again he also preaches against causing disturbance or scandal. His words on eating meat offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 8 is a good example.

 

[Thomas]

Maybe you should stop writing ambiguously.

Seems to me is that this is all a diversion and 'much ado about nothing'.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because Christ is not like any other prophet mentioned in the Bible.

OK .. but that does not explain "How does Jesus "save and deify" humanity?"

Now, you might say "through dying and rising" .. but how does that save us exactly?
..through what mechanism?

 

[Longfellow]

You think if God chooses to communicate with someone, He can't make Himself understood?

I'm not sure any more what this discussion is about. I probably miscommunicated again. What I said about Paul not being infallible was about his Christology. His understanding of those OT passages might not be perfect.