Purpose of religion

[wil]

Unity has recently merged into a single entity. Mark Hicks of TruthUnity has voiced a concern that treating a religious movement like a brand-led media corporation makes its vulnerable to shifting political and cultural winds. Likewise he has voiced concerns that Unity is losing Fillmore's foundational metaphysics and becoming increasingly secularised with its drift into generalised New Age teaching.

Lol...you know more than I about the governance of Unity. Anytime there is change someone complains....looking it up the unity church split into unity worldwide ministries (the churches) and unity publishing.

Me? I gravitate to Unity because of their interfaith acceptance, referencing various religions from the pulpit and similarities to biblical scripture.

From what I have looked at so far...looks like the HQ wants to lead more into the interfaith realm and less on the decidedly Christian realm...(so far all for that from my perspective)

Of course Unity has always been described either as liberal Christians or not Christians.

Having traveled the states and had a habit of stopping in and visiting various churches in barious cities the differences in individual churches is great...some quite Christian and some openly interfait, you prolly know the ones I have preferred.

As you know i was at the 2008 Unity Institute Lyceum, Bishop John Shelby Spong praised Unity for leading a critical reformation away from literalism and traditional theism toward an inclusive, spiritual oneness. However, he emphasized that Unity is merely a stepping stone rather than the final destination—arguing that all human religious institutions naturally grow and fade, and that the future of faith will inevitably evolve into something entirely new.

Ya gotta break eggs to make an omelet and so far I find what I have seen as potentially delicious.

I like what Rev Hicks has done with TruthUnity and hope he keeps the open access to all Unity publications.

Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile by Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong.
In the book, Spong argues that traditional, pre-modern Christian doctrines (like a supernatural God, original sin, and the idea of Jesus as a magical rescuer) no longer make sense in a scientific, modern world. He calls for a non-theistic reinterpretation of the faith—viewing God as the "Ground of Being" and source of love rather than a divine monarch—so Christianity can remain relevant to modern thinkers rather than fade into irrelevance.

What you have told me excites me now that I have looked further into it! Thx!

 

[Bloodshot]

Celts and Scythians had their kings and limited civilizations, but weren't kind to captured enemy. Their civilization generally did not extend beyond the tribe -- using the term broadly. The tribe was the tribe and the tribe came first.

As a Celt myself I feel obliged to point out that ancient Celtic society was highly sophisticated, and had an extensive legal system, based largely on restitution over punishment, covering disputes between clans and individuals.

I struggle to think of a tribe that was ever kind to captured enemies, and claims of Celtic brutality were greatly exaggerated by the far more brutal Roman empire to justify their military goals.

I believe that in western culture it is Christ who extended the concept of 'love your neighbour' beyond the tribal fence to include all humanity.

Hospitality to strangers was not only a cultural norm, it was also an obligation under ancient Celtic law.

I get what you're saying, but the way you're saying it completely disregards the contribution of many other cultures who suffered a similar fate to that of my ancestors, in the name of "civilisation" - systematic slaughter, persecution and cultural erasure lasting for millennia.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Add: Sense of wholeness and ability to act in a more integrated fashion because of that sense? My question is a psychological framing of religion, probably consistent with Wil’s exploration here.

My understanding is, that any sense of wholeness that stems from our own human rational mind, is born of the higher power (Holy Spirit) behind all creation, as I see we do not have a rational mind without that higher power.

As such, the stated "real benefits" of a productive life are but a reflection of our mind tapping into a given purpose. The benefits, in a part, are as wil stated.

But simple community...

The joy of shared belief...

The benefit of communion with each other...

The working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?

What if true interfaith is understanding we are all in this together not to fight other communities, nor convince others I am right and you are wrong, not coerce or convince others to believe as you or eye...

But just to find our own niche, our own people.

And what if that takes multiple beliefs to satisfy some..

All the above is enshrined in a teaching called "Unity in our diversity". This honestly has been the primary focus that Baha'i activities have focused on for many decades.

The problem we face is in the question, "will these efforts produce fruit without acknowledging the source is not our own minds?"

This is a large subject, not restricted to a single meaning in the following extracted part quote, the many ideas I have read about this topic forms my understanding about this.

".....the foundation of success and salvation is the recognition of God, and that good deeds, which are the fruit of faith, derive from this recognition.

When this recognition is not attained, man remains veiled from God and, as he is veiled, his good works fail to achieve their full and desired effect...."

I see it is about the expansion of our rational
mind, one may say, removing the veils of a temporal material existence.

"With regard to the soul of man. According to the Bahá’í Teachings the human soul starts with the formation of the human embryo, and continues to develop and pass through endless stages of existence after its separation from the body. Its progress is thus infinite."

"Concerning the future life, what Bahá’u’lláh says is that the soul will continue to ascend through many worlds. What those worlds are and what their nature is we cannot know. The same way that the child in the matrix cannot know this world so we cannot know what the other world is going to be."

Regards Tony

 

[Clobbernocky]

What if the real benefit is not a belief in a higher power?

I'm a spiritual agnostic atheist who discovered divinity while reasoning out and discovering moral truthes. Divinity is like mastery of the character virtues. I think the best religion is to apply reason to faith. Divinity or a higher power is more of an archetype to me moreso than a living God. We are all novices; those that aspire to truth.

Or an understanding of what happens after we die?

I have an open mind toward Godhood. Yet religion is for the here and now going forward.

Or the true purpose of life on earth?

If religion doesn't build character then I consider it empty. Destinations aside, if life has meaning it's through growth as human beings.

Or the explanation of how we got here.

Maybe people are too hungry for the source and the destination and they don't want their lives to be meaningless. And they miss out on the life in front of them.

But simple community...

I think it's the heart that really matters in the end, beliefs aside, can people align through good character

The joy of shared belief...

Not all beliefs people have are agreeable and joyous.

The benefit of communion with each other...

To edify the soul and each other.

The working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?

The foundation of the commonality is the important thing.

What if true interfaith is understanding we are all in this together not to fight other communities, nor convince others I am right and you are wrong, not coerce or convince others to believe as you or eye...

I've had to look past beliefs all my life to find the good in others.

But just to find our own niche, our own people.

That could be a lifetime for some.

And what if that takes multiple beliefs to satisfy some..

Beliefs to me fall short of knowledge. They are convincing intuitions.

None of this is fully vetted or thought out.

That's the best religion, to seek out, and to search for meaning in ourselves, and perhaps others.

I love limbo and contemplation and a place that allows it...thank you @iBrian and everyone

Truth seeking finds limbo all the time on many fronts.

 

[wil]

@Clobbernocky many good points imo

Not all beliefs people have are agreeable and joyous.

Truth

Maybe people are too hungry for the source and the destination and they don't want their lives to be meaningless. And they miss out on the life in front of them.

Yup...and i believe it is that desire that created religions (the kid pulling at daddy's robe...what why when how...like ai dad will answer eventually despite not knowing the answer and make up a story.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The substance is One under different names, and everyone is seeking the same substance; only climate, temperament, and name create differences. Let each man follow his own path. If he sincerely and ardently wishes to know God, peace be unto him! He will surely realize Him."

Wish there was some substance in the belief. How can anyone find something which has no substance? Ramakrishna too did not have any evidence for the same, just platitudes.

 

[RJM]

As a Celt myself I feel obliged to point out that ancient Celtic society was highly sophisticated, and had an extensive legal system, based largely on restitution over punishment, covering disputes between clans and individuals.

I struggle to think of a tribe that was ever kind to captured enemies, and claims of Celtic brutality were greatly exaggerated by the far more brutal Roman empire to justify their military goals.

Hospitality to strangers was not only a cultural norm, it was also an obligation under ancient Celtic law.

I get what you're saying, but the way you're saying it completely disregards the contribution of many other cultures who suffered a similar fate to that of my ancestors, in the name of "civilisation" - systematic slaughter, persecution and cultural erasure lasting for millennia.

Fair enough

 

[Aupmanyav]

The problem we face is in the question, "will these efforts produce fruit without acknowledging the source is not our own minds?"

".....the foundation of success and salvation is the recognition of God, and that good deeds, which are the fruit of faith, derive from this recognition."

.. removing the veils of a temporal material existence.

"With regard to the soul of man. According to the Bahá’í Teachings the human soul starts with the formation of the human embryo, and continues to develop and pass through endless stages of existence after its separation from the body. Its progress is thus infinite."

"Concerning the future life, what Bahá’u’lláh says .."

The problem that we face is not acknowledging that the source is our own mind but an imaginary entity.
What salvation? Why would a person who is dead require any salvation? Fruits of faith are falsehood and superstition.
Science has a fair explanation of the temporal material existence - matter and anti-matter.
Offer us some evidence about existence of this entity, 'soul'.
Husayn Ali Nuri was an uneducated 19th Century Iranian born in Shia faith who have such outlandish beliefs like "Imam Ghyaba" (the Imam in occultation).

 

[Longfellow]

What salvation?

I'll answer that from my non-Christian view of the Christian Bible. It's freedom from slavery to our desires and impulses.

Mokṣa (मोक्ष) - ultimate liberation, freedom from bondage (including bondage to desire and impulse).
Vairāgya (वैराग्य) - detachment or dispassion, the cultivated state of not being ruled by cravings.
Indriya‑nigraha (इन्द्रियनिग्रह) - restraint or control of the senses.
Svadharma‑anusaraṇa (स्वधर्मानुसरण) - living according to one’s true duty, rather than being driven by impulse.
Kaivalya (कैवल्य) - aloneness or pure independence of the soul, free from entanglement with passions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'll answer that from my non-Christian view of the Christian Bible. It's freedom from slavery to our desires and impulses.

Mokṣa (मोक्ष) - ultimate liberation, freedom from bondage (including bondage to desire and impulse).
Vairāgya (वैराग्य) - detachment or dispassion, the cultivated state of not being ruled by cravings.
Indriya‑nigraha (इन्द्रियनिग्रह) - restraint or control of the senses.
Svadharma‑anusaraṇa (स्वधर्मानुसरण) - living according to one’s true duty, rather than being driven by impulse.
Kaivalya (कैवल्य) - aloneness or pure independence of the soul, free from entanglement with passions.

Nice that you know the words. Christians do not have the monopoly on believing superstitions. Hindus too are good at it.
However, I am an atheist Hindu following 'Advaita' (non-duality). From "Nirvana Shatakam" of the first Sankaracharya:

"na me dveṣarāgau na me lobhamohau, mado naiva me naiva mātsaryabhāvaḥ;
na dharmo na cārtho na kāmo na mokṣaḥ, cidānandarūpaḥ śivo'ham śivo'ham." l3l

(I have neither hatred, nor attachment, neither greed nor delusion, neither pride, nor envy;
I seek neither righteousness, nor wealth, neither desire. nor liberation,
I am of the nature of consciousness and bliss. I am eternal, I am auspecious.)

"ahaṃ nirvikalpo nirākārarūpo, vibhutvācca sarvatra sarvendriyāṇām;
na cāsaṅgataṃ naiva muktirna meyaḥ, cidānandarūpaḥ śivo'ham śivo'ham." l6l

(I am beyond choices, of formless nature, and by virtue of being all-pervading, present everywhere through all the senses;
I am not attachment, nor liberation, nor the object of knowledge;
I am of the nature of consciousness and bliss. I am eternal, I am auspecious.)

That is what I am, that is what you are, that is what all things in the universe are.
(Aham Brahmasmi, Tat twam asi, Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma)

After this enlightenment, one does not need Moksha, Kaivalya. One is a slave till one does not realize himself. This realization breaks all bonds. Swadharma-anusaran and Indriya-nigrah, sure that is the base of a society. If one lives in a society, one must do that.

Nirvana Shatakam

SHLOKA, MEANING & AUDIO manobuddhyahaṅkāra cittāni nāhaṃ na ca śrotrajihve na ca ghrāṇanetre . na ca vyoma bhūmirna tejo na vāyuḥ...

www.shlokam.org

 

[Longfellow]

Nice that you know the words.

I’ll admit I deserved that.

 

[RJM]

Wish there was some substance in the belief. How can anyone find something which has no substance? Ramakrishna too did not have any evidence for the same, just platitudes.

Ramakrishna himself found substance in it. He was an ecstatic, often going into a state of samadhi. At any time he would just disappear into a state of inner bliss. After a while he would come down to earth again, and carry on his teaching against the material traps of 'women and gold' meaning physical desire and the desire for money and material things?

EDIT: He never claimed to be a great teacher or manifestation of the divine. He lived in humble poverty with a camp bed and the robe on his back.

 

[Thomas]

What you have told me excites me now that I have looked further into it! Thx!

It's a good process to look into what they say, and what their critics have to say, otherwise we fall foul of hagiography.

 

[wil]

It's a good process to look into what they say, and what their critics have to say, otherwise we fall foul of hagiography.

There have been a number of students of Unity who have been enlightened by the thinking and then moved on to form their own churches (and denominations ...that dang American expansion continues)

Rev. Dr. Johnnie Colemon: After graduating as an ordained Unity minister in 1956, she founded Christ Universal Temple in Chicago and went on to establish the Universal Foundation for Better Living (UFBL), a major international New Thought denomination.

Rev. Dr. Barbara King: Ordained through Unity, she went on to found the Hillside International Truth Center in Atlanta, Georgia.

Annie Rix Militz: An early associate and student who worked closely with the Fillmores and wrote for Unity publications, she later established the Home of Truth movement across the West Coast.

Dr. Eric Butterworth: A prominent Unity minister and author who moved to New York City to build the independent Unity Center of New York City at Carnegie Hall, operating largely as a distinct ministry within the broader New Thought landscape.

The split in 66 gave ministers the freedom to explore beyond the bounds of Unity school of Christianity thought...the current bringing back in to regain control of the franchise will allow/cause more division, more diversity in thought and i am all for it!

 

[Longfellow]

Nice that you know the words.

I'll confess, I asked Coplot what would be a Hindu way of saying freedom from being ruled by our desires and impulses, but honestly, it is more than just words to me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In the book, Spong argues that traditional, pre-modern Christian doctrines (like a supernatural God, original sin, and the idea of Jesus as a magical rescuer) no longer make sense in a scientific, modern world. He calls for a non-theistic reinterpretation of the faith—viewing God as the "Ground of Being" and source of love rather than a divine monarch—so Christianity can remain relevant to modern thinkers rather than fade into irrelevance.

As far as I know, Paul said do not do that. That was his difference from Peter. He said Christianity will not survive without God being the monarch and Jesus being his anointed son, born immaculately, who paid for sin committed by Adam and Eve, and resurrected.

 

[Longfellow]

As far as I know, Paul said do not do that. That was his difference from Peter. He said Christianity will not survive without God being the monarch and Jesus being his anointed son, born immaculately, who paid for sin committed by Adam and Eve, and resurrected.

I think that the "paid for sin" part is a false reading of Paul, invented by Luther and/or other reformers.

(later) More precisely I think that "paid for sin" as it is commonly understood today, as payment for a debt or punishment for a crime, is a false reading. It was a ransom in the OT sense, to buy freedom for people of Israel who were captured by other nations, only in this case the slavemaster is our desires and impulses.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ramakrishna himself found substance in it. He was an ecstatic, often going into a state of samadhi. At any time he would just disappear into a state of inner bliss. After a while he would come down to earth again, and carry on his teaching against the material traps of 'women and gold' meaning physical desire and the desire for money and material things?

RJM, I am an atheist and not an admirer of Ramakrishna. I am not an ecstatic but a skeptic. There is an "aimless samadhi" too, that is pleasing to senses (inner bliss). That is ignorance, a trap. Sages warn against it. For the knowing, there is neither bliss nor sorrow.

 

[Bear Wild]

RJM, I am an atheist and not an admirer of Ramakrishna. I am not an ecstatic but a skeptic. There is an "aimless samadhi" too, that is pleasing to senses (inner bliss). That is ignorance, a trap. Sages warn against it. For the knowing, there is neither bliss nor sorrow.

Hello. Just joined and saw your avatar. You seem to be too harsh on the ecstatic state. In most initiation rites it is used to remove the ego driven adolescent mind and allow an adult "soul-centered mind" to surface. It of course is influenced by the context in which you are doing it but it does cause profound changes. There was a study I wish i could find find again showing that when swedes living in the city and go out deep in the countryside can have these ecstatic state. The all describe a profound change were the feel reconnected with the greater than human world. This is an important connection that is lacking in our current ego centered consumer minds.

 

[RabbiO]

@Bear Wild -

Spoiler Alert - You are going to recognize more tha few familiar avatars and/or names around here.