The search for Proof of God

I have also had personal experience of gods, but they weren't the architects of the cosmos.
Ok. The experience of an 'angel' to mortal men is the same as an experience of God. The closer an 'angelic being' merges with the ultimate God, the less are mortal men able to draw a line. The concept of the holy guardian angel. To us, contact with the all pure and all loving holy guardian angel is enough, even if there is no actual meeting with the 'God' that transcends all?
 
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@Bloodshot
The same would actually apply to the encounter with DMT ayahuasca or psilocybin or iboga 'entities' IMO -- if that's part of the frame of reference?
 
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I find this to be an important realization with regards to atheists and the search for God.

Start with the concession the empiricist wants: scientific inference to the physical world has a discipline that pure philosophical interpretation lacks. It answers to intersubjective measurement, prediction, and the possibility of being wrong in a way that shows up publicly. When you infer the neutrino's mass or the age of a rock, the world pushes back through instruments, and the pushback is corroborable by anyone with the apparatus. That's real epistemic force, and it's why physical science is the closest thing we have to knowledge that compounds.
But the empiricist who stops there and says "only that counts as knowledge" has already sawed off the branch. That very claim — only empirically testable propositions yield knowledge — is not itself empirically testable. It's a philosophical interpretation of the evidence about which methods have worked. So the strict position is self-undermining; you cannot draw the boundary of knowledge without standing outside it and reasoning philosophically. Logic and mathematics are the cleaner case: we know theorems, and we know them more securely than any physical fact, yet not one was established by measurement. That is knowledge from valid, sound inference with no instrument in sight.
So the honest question isn't whether philosophical interpretation can ground knowledge — it plainly does, or we know almost nothing — but under what conditions it does. And here's the real distinction, which cuts across the science/philosophy line rather than along it. Reliable knowledge, in either domain, requires premises that are genuinely load-bearing and an inference that genuinely transmits their warrant. Science's advantage is that its premises are constantly re-anchored to observation, so bad premises get caught. Philosophy's vulnerability is that a valid argument from a plausible-seeming premise feels like knowledge even when the premise is quietly doing illegitimate work. Validity and even soundness aren't self-certifying — you can have a valid argument, believe the premises true, and still be wrong because a premise smuggled in more than it earned.
That's the crux for your kind of project, where moral or metaphysical facts are treated as discoverable: the inference can be impeccable and the conclusion still fail, not because philosophical interpretation can't yield knowledge, but because the premises weren't as secure as their plausibility suggested. So the discipline philosophy has to impose on itself, lacking instruments, is ruthless pressure on premises — where did this one come from, what would show it false, is it carrying weight it hasn't earned. When it does that, it produces knowledge. When it doesn't, it produces valid-looking confidence, which is more dangerous than obvious error precisely because the logic checks out.

The search for God is a metaphysical pursuit. It requires thinking outside the box as much as anything inside the box of knowledge. I say this as an atheist.
 
Reliable knowledge, in either domain, requires premises that are genuinely load-bearing and an inference that genuinely transmits their warrant. Science's advantage is that its premises are constantly re-anchored to observation, so bad premises get caught.
Scientific conjectures are subject to falsification and experimental testing -- passing which they move on to become theories, but always subject to falsification at any future time, by new facts.

However scientific investigation for all its genuine marvels and the clever people who create and construct them, is always an extension, however subtle and inventive, of our human senses of sight, touch, hearing and so on.

The very mathematics upon which it all depends breaks down at the time/space infinity.

Science cannot test what lies beyond its remit. The honest answer becomes "don't know" and not: "because it's untestable it is unlikely and therefore of no value" imo

There are frauds and kooks but that does not exclude the genuine experience of people who have experienced the "touch of the divine" which can't be dismissed just because they don't tick the boxes we require of society normality.

Science, in starting out by refusing to allow convention and religion to dictate the questions it asked and the answers it got, has gone on to cloak itself with philosophical authority beyond its remit. It is mission creep. 'Science' doesn't know whether or not a greater spiritual agency exists beyond the material natural reality within its remit.

"Scientists" can't tell anybody about anything that possibly lies outside of nature, time and space.
 
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Scientific conjectures are subject to falsification and experimental testing -- passing which they move on to become theories, but always subject to falsification at any future time, by new facts.
Karl Popper, a philosopher introduced this method of falsification.
However scientific investigation for all its genuine marvels and the clever people who create and construct them, is always an extension, however subtle and inventive, of our human senses of sight, touch, hearing and so on.
No doubt! I concede that there's also a sixth sense about meaning, and conception that humanity can exercise.
The very mathematics upon which it all depends breaks down at the time/space infinity.

Science cannot test what lies beyond its remit. The honest answer becomes "don't know" and not: "because it's untestable it is unlikely and therefore of no value" imo
Philosophy of religion and spiritual arguments need to do load bearing work, and not just be valid, and consistent.
There are frauds and kooks but that does not exclude the genuine experience of people who have experienced the "touch of the divine" which can't be dismissed just because they don't tick the boxes we require of society normality.
This would seem hard to corroborate for an atheist.
Science, in starting out by refusing to allow convention and religion to dictate the questions it asked and the answers it got, has gone on to cloak itself with philosophical authority beyond its remit. It is mission creep. 'Science' doesn't know whether or not a greater spiritual agency exists beyond the material natural reality within its remit.
That's why I find debating this useless. The burden of proof is always on the claimant. And a lot of atheists disregard any philosophical discourse as mostly meaningless, and won't move from their entrenched position on their turf.

A lot of atheists will admit that science can't prove or disprove the existence of God.
"Scientists" can't tell anybody about anything that possibly lies outside of nature, time and space.
 
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What the atheist who demands proof for the existence of God cannot accept, is that the demand for empirical or 'scientific' (both metaphysics and theology are sciences) proof is a categorical error, as God is not a discrete entity within the physical universe but the transcendent actuality of all things.
I personally think it is a good exercise for both non believers and believers in God to consider what is the primary proofs and evidence that God would give us to consider.

The process of even considering God exists would be the first stumbling block would
It not? Maybe we would need to be as a child, thirsting for knowledge.

We would have to be open to considering that there is a higher mind then our own self and even if we open ourselves to that possibility, we would still have to overcome our nature and nurture, that influence our opinions.

Regards Tony
 
Ok. The experience of an 'angel' to mortal men is the same as an experience of God. The closer an 'angelic being' merges with the ultimate God, the less are mortal men able to draw a line. The concept of the holy guardian angel. To us, contact with the all pure and all loving holy guardian angel is enough, even if there is no actual meeting with the 'God' that transcends all?
Not angels, gods.
 
A lot of atheists will admit that science can't prove or disprove the existence of God.
...yet.

If god's influence can extend into the universe, it is not external.
If god's influence alters the behaviour of anything made of matter, it has a physical effect.

Why, then, should science not hope one day to measure this?
Why is it "beyond the remit"?
 
...yet.

If god's influence can extend into the universe, it is not external.
Influence through meanings, words, and spiritual expressions isn't exactly something I would consider detectable.
If god's influence alters the behaviour of anything made of matter, it has a physical effect.
I don't see a benevolent God would alter behaviour. What's the point of that?
Why, then, should science not hope one day to measure this?
Why is it "beyond the remit"?
Well no one is getting in the way of someone trying to do that.
 
Influence through meanings, words, and spiritual expressions isn't exactly something I would consider detectable.
I don't see a benevolent God would alter behaviour. What's the point of that?
Religious experiences alter the behaviour of people, made of matter, who have them?
Well no one is getting in the way of someone trying to do that.
🙃
 
Philosophy of religion and spiritual arguments need to do load bearing work
I'm not familiar with the concept, in philosophy? Or perhaps, could you give an example, perhaps from this thread?
 
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I'm not familiar with the concept, in philosophy? Or perhaps, could you give an example, perhaps from this thread?
A premise is load-bearing when the conclusion actually depends on it — when, if you pulled that premise out, the argument would collapse rather than merely lose some decoration. It's the structural-engineering metaphor meant literally: some walls hold the roof up, others just divide rooms. In an argument, some premises carry the inference and some are scenery.

I'm looking for arguments for God on philosophical grounds. Perhaps self evident truths. Perhaps physical evidence that can be interpreted in favor.
 
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I'm looking for arguments for God on philosophical grounds.

Could there be one purpose so great, that possibly even God could not do anything greater?

Could God create anything greater than children in his own image, likeness and nature?
Could God love ALL his children as he loves himself?

Could there be any other single greater purpose for God to create the universe and life?

Could the creation of the universe and life hang and depend on the greatest commandments?
 
Could there be one purpose so great, that possibly even God could not do anything greater?
Don't know
Could God create anything greater than children in his own image, likeness and nature?
Could God love ALL his children as he loves himself?
Haven't witnessed anything like this
Could there be any other single greater purpose for God to create the universe and life?
Life is fringe in the universe.
Could the creation of the universe and life hang and depend on the greatest commandments?
I really don't know.
 
A premise is load-bearing when the conclusion actually depends on it — when, if you pulled that premise out, the argument would collapse rather than merely lose some decoration. It's the structural-engineering metaphor meant literally: some walls hold the roof up, others just divide rooms. In an argument, some premises carry the inference and some are scenery.

I'm looking for arguments for God on philosophical grounds. Perhaps self evident truths. Perhaps physical evidence that can be interpreted in favor.

Thanks
Hmm ...
 
Science is ignorant on all the big questions. There could be anything between a 100 to 400 billion stars in our tiny little galaxy. There could be anything between a hundred billion, or possibly even up to two trillion galaxies. We can't even guess at how many invisible planets there are in the universe, we can't see them. We know very little about the planets in our microscopic solar system, we have sent probes to the moon and mars, aren't we clever.
Apparently, it would take about thirty thousand years to count up to a trillion. Meaning, we don't have real and solid information to guess about trillions of galaxies, stars and planets. Science is blowing in the wind, we don't have a clue about what exists today. How can science possibly understand what was happening 20, 50 or a hundred billion years ago. This is a totally random number, but we possibly have a little knowledge of about 0.0001% of the universe.
The creation of the universe and life is history, you can't change history. There is a truth.
Everyone who has died to date, has died in ignorance to all the big questions, science has been blind. We can only believe without evidence.
Beyond a doubt, nothing would exist without God.
My 2c
 
we have sent probes to the moon and mars, aren't we clever.
Extremely brilliant. The science that enables these space missions is extraordinary. It's truly wonderful -- amazing human ingenuity, imo

Apparently, it would take about thirty thousand years to count up to a trillion
Well, computers do stuff a lot quicker nowadays

Science is blowing in the wind, we don't have a clue about what exists today.
We have a pretty good clue, really

How can science possibly understand what was happening 20, 50 or a hundred billion years ago
The big bang happened around 13.5 billions years ago. Beyond that, it's unknown. It's all pretty well worked out, in theory, up to close to the BB singularity, though always open to correction as new facts arrive. And this does happen. Human knowledge of nature continues to progress.

There are always competing ideas around 'inflation' and so on.

The astounding technology and construction of the James Webb infrared space telescope is detecting fully formed spiral galaxies in the earliest universe long before their formation was theoretically possible. So scientists collate and analyse the data, and share and put forward ideas about what it means.

Then it's all tested by further open scrutiny and comparison.
 
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There are always competing ideas around 'inflation' and so on.

The astounding technology and construction of the James Webb infrared space telescope is detecting fully formed spiral galaxies in the earliest universe long before their formation was theoretically possible. So scientists collate and analyse the data, and share and put forward ideas about what it means.
Scientists argue among themselves about the physical world for centuries...

Religionosts argue among themselves about the spiritual world for millenia.

Seems to me when either come to a conclusion they can agree on...they should talk.

Thomas said:
What the atheist who demands proof for the existence of God cannot accept, is that the demand for empirical or 'scientific' (both metaphysics and theology are sciences) proof is a categorical error, as God is not a discrete entity within the physical universe but the transcendent actuality of all things.

Longfellow said:
They are encouraged in that by people trying to prove that God exists.

What does a religonist care.whether an atheist believes in G!d or not?

Are they still about fear of them being punished by G!d for their unbelief and condemnation by same to hellfire for eternity?
 
What does a religonist care.whether an atheist believes in G!d or not?

Are they still about fear of them being punished by G!d for their unbelief and condemnation by same to hellfire for eternity?
Where I've seen it happening is in atheist forums. I don't know why. Probably different reasons. I've posted about my theory sometimes, to see how it floats or to see what arguments there might be against it. Maybe sometimes people are trying to convince themselves. It also could be what you're saying, wanting to save atheists. I think that one person that I knew personally just enjoyed the company of atheists, and trying to prove God was just an excuse for hanging out in an atheist forum. Another one that I knew was trying to promote their religion and they thought that the first thing they had to do was to prove the existence of God.
 
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