Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
I am sorry. I should not be around here.
Maybe Jesus's sacrifice helped open the covenant to gentiles, and helped Jews with the transition to faithfulness without the temple?
- Thread starter Longfellow
- Start date
I have been thinking about the nature of sacrifice.
I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking.
Rabbinical Judaism takes shape mainly after the fall of the temple in 70CE, and dealt with the loss of the temple. I don't see Christianity playing any role in that?
OK, but that's not the thinking of the New Testament.
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
I’m not saying that Christianity played a role. I’m saying that maybe Jesus played a role. Also, I’m saying it differently now. I’m saying that maybe he helped with the growth and spread of some understandings that helped Jews remain faithful to God without the temple.
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
Just what is it that you think the covenant is between God and the Jews???
Jews actually argue about this, but I'm going to do the best I can to give a general summary.
Side one: What Jews are to do for God:
Obey the mitzvot of the covenant, including circumcision as its signBe a light to the nations and a source of blessing to all people
Side two: What God will do for the Jews
Be the God of the Jewish people and to maintain the covenant (unconditional)Make the Jewish people into a people and preserve us (unconditional)
Give us the land of Canaan forever (unconditional)
Allow us to live within that land (conditional)
Bless us with prosperity and security when we are faithful to the covenant, while warning of consequences when we are not.
What I'd like you to do is look at my summary and then tell me, is THAT something you think is now incumbent on non-Jews as well due to Jesus death? You think that followers of Jesus are obligated to keep those 613 mitzvot? You believe the land of Canaan now belongs to Christians?
Next, I'm very curious how you think Jesus' death and the subsequent rise of Christianity "helped Rabbinic Judaism to grow." Are you aware that when Rome became Christian it literally outlawed the circumcision of non-Jews (meaning that conversion to Judaism was prohibited)??
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
Torah observance IS PART OF THE COVENANT. The moment you remove that aspect is the moment the covenant simply disappears.
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
It has NEVER been necessary for a non-Jew to become a Jew. Ever. Did Noah need to become a Jew? Did Job need to become a Jew? Did Naaman need to become a Jew? Did all the citizens of Nineveh need to become Jews? No one needs to be a Jew to be loved by God and have a share in the world to come. This is why Jews don't proselytize. Just love God and be a good person, and you're good.
In the days of Jesus and the apostles the way it worked was like this: a Gentile had two choices. They could, if they wished, take on the obligations of the covenant (become Jews, beginning with circumcision if male). OR even though they believed Jewish teachings they could remain Gentiles, and were not obligated to keep the mitzvot. These were called God-fearers. You may remember that later in the book of Acts, Cornelius is referred to as a God-fearer.
What I'm trying to point out is that the standard Jewish teaching in the days of the Apostles was that there was no demand that non-Jews become Jews, no demand that non-Jews become circumcised and keep all the mitzvot.
It appears there were a few total dingalings in the Jerusalem church (which at that time was a sect of Judaism). These maroons were saying (contrary to normative, mainstream Jewish understanding) that Gentile believers in Jesus needed to become Jews.
The opinion you are attributing to Peter is not Peter's idea. Peter is simply articulating mainstream JUDAISM. He is the voice of the Jewish consensus.
James wisely ratifies it, and the idiot wing is silenced.
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
Not really. There are millions of Jews in the world. Only a negligible few become Christian. Indeed, we Jews are KNOWN for our unique resistance to Christian missionary efforts.
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
It's spirit? This is the sort of touchy feely phrase that makes everyone feel great but says nothing at all.
I'm going to try to put this into my own words. I'm sure other Jews would say it differently. This is how I articulate my covenant, and trust me I take this covenant so seriously it goes all the way to my core.
1. My LIFE is to be my testimony that there is One God and that he cares very much how we treat each other. Not my words. Not some cheap list of beliefs that I can check off. My actions. My behavior. My OBEDIENCE. It is this SHOWING rather than telling that is a light to the nations. Words are cheap. My actions are my sermon. How about I use Christian words to articulate this? "I will show you my faith by my deeds." It is IMPOSSIBLE to remove this component of obedience to God from the covenant.
2. I am called to be a blessing to all people. If it comes time for me to die, and the world isn't just a tiny bit better for my having lived, then I have failed in my covenant. It is my JOB, my RESPONSIBILITY, my OBLIGATION to make this world a kinder, more just, and less painful place for every man, woman, and child. Christians focus on getting into heaven. Jews focus on bringing heaven down to earth.
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
Yes, you are absolutely correct. Jesus' approach to the law was that of a Pharisee of the school of Hillel. The debates between the school of Hillel and the school of Shammai were legendary, and Jesus participated in this every time he tangled with the beit Shammai Pharisees who dominated the Sanhedrin during his years of ministry.
Best book on this:
Jesus the Pharisee: A New Look at the Jewishness of Jesus
Book by Harvey Falk
What sets Jesus apart in the gospels stories is NOT his teachings on the Law, which were mainstream. It was the claims he is reputed to have made about himself. It's hard to know what to think about that since the gospels stories are not reliable. Which things did he really say and which are merely legend? It's really too bad that he left no writings.
And I'm sure that most of the Christians in here have no idea who Rabbi Hillel was, this Hillel who influenced Jesus' teachings. He lived in the generation before Jesus. If the story of Jesus going to Jerusalem when he was 12 is accurate, he would have almost certainly have met Hillel in person because Hillel was the Nasi (president of the Sanhedrin) at that time. Hillel taught, "What is hateful to you, don't do to others. That is the whole Torah. All the rest is commentary. Now go study."
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IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
Hi Thomas.
I respectfully disagree. All the major elements of "Rabbinic" Judaism were in place before the destruction of the Temple.• The Pharisaic interpretation of Torah as authoritative alongside the Written Torah
• The Oral Torah and traditions of interpretation
• Synagogues as centers of Jewish worship, study, and community life
• Rabbis and other scholars as recognized religious authorities
• The Sanhedrin and other Jewish courts
• Hillel and Shammai's schools of legal interpretation
• Regular communal prayer and established liturgical forms
• Torah study as a central religious obligation and ideal
• The development of halakhah through debate and interpretation
• The belief that Jewish religious life could extend far beyond the Temple and its sacrificial cult
When the Temple was destroyed, Jews just continued doing all the non-Temple things they had been doing for a long time. And that is what some people label "Rabbinic Judaism."
Yeah, neither do I. I have asked him to articulate his ideas.
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
You keep saying this, but not once have you given any evidence of it.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
Well-Known Member
I see this is the true essence of Faith, brought to humanity by the Messengers.
With our deeds we can be one with G_d.
I would add, as it is important, for our deeds to find their full potential, acknowledging God's Messengers (Messiah) is part of the Covernant.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
Well-Known Member
I personally see it is becoming one with G_d by acceptance of all G_d given Messiah (Annointed Ones).
Do we change faith by embracing all the Messiah, or do we become more whole in our faith?
I view the latter as most probable, we can transend all names to see naught but the Glory of G_d.
With the above, if it conflicts with your understanding, then know we can show our faith by deeds, be trustworthy and truthful and always honest in our intentions.
Regards Tony
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your posts. This is a wonderful surprise. This is exactly what I was hoping for, some Jewish responses to this. Thank you, and thank you for your generosity. It will take some time for me to respond. I won’t be trying to prove anything, just trying to explain better what I’m thinking.
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
Toneeeeeeeeeey! So nice to see you here.
IndigoChild5559
Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
I am looking forward to a WONDERFUL conversation. Take your time.
I have found that people who slow down and think before they respond are far more likely to give the deeper sort of responses that I crave.
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
Wow, when I said thank you for your generosity, I had no idea how generous you’ve been, what a bounty you’re offering me. In this post I’ll just respond to a few questions. After that I want to say where I agree with you, then answer some more questions.
When I said that Jesus helped with the growth and spread of Rabbinic Judaism, I meant, among Jews.
What you say about the Covenant is very helpful, and I love it, I adore it, it’s precious to me.
I don’t think that the mitzvot applies to gentiles. Thank you for that vocabulary word. I’ll come back to that later. I don’t think that the land of Canaan belongs to Christians! Thank you for that question!
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
You’re opening up new horizons for me.
No, but that question gave me a new idea. The Covenant has a spiritual part and a physical part. The physical part is the land of Canaan and the physical kingdom. The spiritual part is the kind of life we can have, learning to live the way God says to live. Jesus provides a way for gentiles to enter the spiritual part of the Covenant. I’ll troubleshoot that after I think about it some more. Feel free to poke holes in it.