The Law and the Ages

[Bandit]

Jesus clearly did change the OT laws

fulfilling the law does not mean change, altar, or get rid of

John15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
22:36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

No Jesus did not change the OT law. He made the law complete and gives detail to the existing law.

If you do not keep the commandments then you are not abiding in love and do not have love nor the love of God.
Quit telling people your love only doctrine, because it sounds good to the ears, and that the laws are changed just so you can do whatever you want. Maybe deep down you do not love the commandments of God and the laws of Jesus, which in return means you love yourself and your own laws, more than you love God.

Your teaching of 'God does not care how we do it' is clearly a false teaching and You clearly play the same broken record 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Here are some other of The Other Commandments Of Jesus, which go above and beyond the law of love.

1. "FORGIVE EVERYBODY OF ALL THEIR OFFENSES AGAINST YOU."
(Forgive, and be forgiven.)
2. "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN."
3. "ABIDE IN ME, AND LET ME ABIDE IN YOU."
4. "LET PEOPLE SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS." (Do not hide your light
under a basket.)
5. "END DISPUTES QUICKLY."
6. "WHATEVER CAUSES YOU TO SIN, GET RID OF IT."
7. "DO NOT SWEAR OATHS AT ALL."
8. "DO NOT RETURN OFFENSE FOR OFFENSE." (Turn the other cheek.)
9. "GIVE WHAT PEOPLE ASK OF YOU, AND GIVE MORE THAN IS REQUIRED."
(Go the extra mile.)
10. "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES AND THOSE WHO WORK AGAINST YOU."
11. "GIVE TO THE POOR TO PLEASE GOD, NOT TO GAIN APPROVAL
FROM OTHER PEOPLE."
12. "PRAY PRIVATELY AND SIMPLY, NOT TO IMPRESS OTHER PEOPLE."
13. "MAKE YOUR PRAYERS BE LIKE THE LORD'S PRAYER."
14. "WHEN YOU FAST, DO IT SECRETLY, NOT FOR SHOW."
15. "STORE UP YOUR TREASURES IN HEAVEN, NOT ON EARTH."
16. "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT YOUR MATERIAL NEEDS."
17. "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE FUTURE."
18. "MAKE GOD YOUR HIGHEST PRIORITY, AND HE WILL TAKE CARE OF
ALL YOUR NEEDS."
19. "DO NOT JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE." (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)
20. "DO NOT GIVE HOLY THINGS TO DOGS OR CAST YOUR PEARLS
BEFORE SWINE."
21. "ASK GOD FOR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO HAVE." (Seek, and ye shall
find.)
22. "FEED THE HUNGRY, CLOTHE THE NAKED, SHELTER THE HOMELESS,
COMFORT THOSE IN DISTRESS."
23. "FOLLOW THE NARROW PATH TO LIFE." (Enter by the narrow gate.)
24. "BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS."
25. "EXERCISE POWER OVER UNCLEAN SPIRITS."
26. "LOVE LITTLE CHILDREN, DO NOT DESPISE THEM."
27. "DO NOT TAKE THE TITLES 'MASTER' OR 'FATHER' FOR YOURSELF."
28. "RESOLVE DISPUTES IN AN ORDERLY WAY, LIKE THIS . . . "
29. "DO NOT OPPOSE OTHER BELIEVERS IN CHRIST WHO ARE NOT IN YOUR
GROUP."
30. "HAVE TOTAL FAITH IN GOD FOR EVERYTHING."
31. "BE LIKE THE GOOD SAMARITAN." (Go, and do likewise.)

32. "LOVE OTHER PEOPLE AS I HAVE LOVED YOU"
33. "EAT BREAD AND DRINK WINE IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME."
34. "WASH ONE ANOTHER'S FEET."
35. "BE MERCIFUL."
36. "GO AND TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM."
37. "KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
38. "BE PREPARED FOR YOUR MASTER TO RETURN."
39. "REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND."

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Bandit

Please do not make assumptions brother, I have lived by the ten commandments to the best of my ability all of my life but I am always open to new revelations without judgement.

From what you have written it is clear that you did not read the links that provided the evidence in scripture that Jesus did in fact break the law and redefine it.

Also posted a full article on the Christ's Law of Love on another thread 'Bible and divination' which also provides the passages from the bible to support it.

Blessings in abundance

Kim xx

 

[Sacredstar]

PS

'God does not care how we do it'

This as been taken out of context I will clarify the meaning once more. GOD does not mind how people find their way home to GOD as long as they find their way home, this can mean different paths, different religions, different beliefs including new age. God loves all of his children and does not mind how they achieve his will-to-good and will-to-love and of course GOD cares about everyone and everything without exception.

Love beyond measure

Kim xxx

 

[lunamoth]

here is an interesting link

Did Jesus break the law?

http://users.belgacom.net/gc674645/invitat/sabbath.htm

OK, so I lightly skimmed this article. For some reason I find it very difficult to read essays, especially long essays, that have exclamation points after every sentence. But, I do agree with this particular sentiment:

Jesus didn’t just argue against the Pharisees, but he argued against the legalism of the strict law, putting mercy and truth above the rigidity of a hard, unfeeling observance of the law! Not just measuring love and mercy by the law, but measuring the law by love and mercy!—Even by truth, reason and commonsense, with and without scriptural precedents!

I doubt very much that Jews of the time were all stringently, uncompassionately legalistic in their spritual and daily lives. But, just maybe there were some in power who operated this way and used it to subdue/control others. I think excessive legalism is a danger when it goes against the loud and clear wisdom of taking care of the weak, the poor, the vulnerable, the oppressed, the disenfranchised.

Jesus did break the Law. He broke it open as you would break bread before you eat it. My understanding is that Jesus said these Laws are for you as a gift, not as a burden. Use them as a tool to create my Kingdom here on earth, not a weapon with which to bludgeon each other. Use them to set yourselves free, not tie yoursevles down. Use these Laws so that you might love and serve Me as you love and serve each other. Hold the law as you would hold a dove in your hand.

I'd also say that these are things that peope knew then and know now but still have a hard time doing.

 

[Bandit]

Dear Bandit

Please do not make assumptions brother, I have lived by the ten commandments to the best of my ability all of my life but I am always open to new revelations without judgement.

From what you have written it is clear that you did not read the links that provided the evidence in scripture that Jesus did in fact break the law and redefine it.

Also posted a full article on the Christ's Law of Love on another thread 'Bible and divination' which also provides the passages from the bible to support it.

Blessings in abundance

Kim xx

Dear Star,
yes i did look at the links and no he did not change them.
people change them. Jesus did not change them, he expounded and explained them.
we not only live by them like they are drudgery or work, they are natural and easy because we love them and we love the Lord.
I am not going to the bible -contra- divy posts. I am done even looking at that, you know how I feel about that thread. Thanks anyway sweet pie
Hey, who else can I have an argument with if not you. I know you still love me. ROFL

WOOF! WOOF!

I am glad you love the commandments and want to live by them. Thankyou for explaining Star .

Rev.22:14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
22:15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Bandit]

p.s.

I love his commandments and live by them too because I know they are righteous and good from an all loving God to those who keep them, because they love Him.

 

[Bandit]

Jesus did break the Law. He broke it open as you would break bread before you eat it.

right

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Lunamoth

Jesus did break the Law. He broke it open as you would break bread before you eat it. My understanding is that Jesus said these Laws are for you as a gift, not as a burden. Use them as a tool to create my Kingdom here on earth, not a weapon with which to bludgeon each other. Use them to set yourselves free, not tie yoursevles down. Use these Laws so that you might love and serve Me as you love and serve each other. Hold the law as you would hold a dove in your hand.I'd also say that these are things that peope knew then and know now but still have a hard time doing.

Beautiful yes I totally agree.

Dear Bandit

Yes I love you very much big hugs and kisses!

Well I don't like arguements but my father taught me to debate when I was just 12 year's old so forgive me it at times I am over zealous for it is only righteous love of GOD that motivates my intent.

being love

Kim xxx

 

[Basstian]

OK lets stick to the facts.

The Jews in religious power were trying to trick Jesus into saying something they could easily convict Him on. In the same way they asked Him about roman taxes tryig to get Him to say something against Rome and He said rendor unto caeser what is caesers and unto God what is Gods.

Jesus was asked what is the greatest law in order to trick Him into saying something against God His answer was not new to the scribes He like when He was tempted in the wilderness used scripture. Research the "New commandments" you will find they are direct quotes from Levitcus and Deut. Not new but Quoted so that the scribes could not say he had profained the Law and was guilty of Death according to the Law.

Jesus Did not break the sabbath He said it is LAWFUL to do good on the sabbath. which is supported by the Old testament the sabbath was to be considered a delight not a burden. He again when accused of breaking this law refered back to the Old testament to support His actions in the story of David and the holy bread taken from the temple. Had they continued to Convict Him they would have also had to have said David their Greatest King had also sinned against God which was something they would have not been willing to do.

Neither of these events change or alter the Law (10 commandments) using the eye for an eye scripture is going into a whole different aspect of ordinances and statutes. These where given at a seperate time than the 10 and where subject to change with the times. They ( statutes ) could be changed by the righteous judgment of the rulers/judges of the people of Israel. In the same way as the rules about gathering mana changed when the people reached canaan these rules where set up to govern the people and like our laws today could be altered without breaking or changing the Basic 10.

I admit it looks like I am trying to be legalistic to everybody saying the Law is Bad and Love is Good. But the fact is the Law teaches us how to truely Love God and Man alike. I learn from the Law to be absolutely faithful to My God my Family and my fellow Man.
Without the Law I become Godless and am easily carried away by strange and diverse doctrines putting myself outside the faith and outside the will of God.

The Law remains to this day Just Good And Holy and following it is the only true definition of Love.

I don't find it funny that when asking a question about the scripture and how I should apply it to my everyday life. I end up having to defend it because of attacks against the truths that I hold dear. Like the parable It seems the Satan swoops in trying to steal any good seed that falls on these threads. And also trying to tell somebody who's heart is hardened to the truth of Gods Word is truely like sowing seed in the thorns it gets choked out and dies with all the worldly influences, corruptness and selfishness of the anti-Law posts. I dont see that as being LOVE it is truely sad.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Basstian,

I looked over the whole thread again and I don't see anyone saying that the Law (10 commandments) is bad.

All I see are people replying to what you asked: how do we view these Laws today? Is it wrong that people have different understandings of this?

Peace,
lunamoth

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Basstian

I would be interested in your view on this article and your interpretation of the passages from the bible therein. (Anyone else too, it will assist me to refine it so that it can be acceptable to all)

The Law Of Love

What is the fundamental message of the Bible and Gospel of Jesus? As Christians, the belief is that the Hebrew Scripture is a divinely inspired revelation of God's covenant. Above all, it is part of a continuing story and promise of redemption. Christians also embrace the law delivered by Jesus and that law is the Law of Love. Its cornerstone is the two-fold commandment to ‘love God and love your neighbour as yourself.’ The purpose of this law and its pure intent is for the people to love with all their hearts. Jesus refined the law given to Moses; Paul called it the Law of Christ. Gal.6:2.

Are you a follower of Jesus or a collection of laws found in the Old Testament or anywhere else? Jesus is the role model, his teachings are the principles and these principles are ethically and spiritually driven, not rule-bound. Love will always place people above rules in the 21st century, so let us share with people how they can embrace the ‘Law of Love’ — the whole and pure hearted love of God for all of God’s creation.

In Romans 1:26-27, we are made righteous by faith in God, not by doing the works of the Law. The Old Testament’s laws had a purpose, but Christians are no longer under the supervision of the Law. John, the disciple Jesus loved John 13:23, said: ‘For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ’ John 1:17, NIV.

Just as Jesus is greater than Moses, so too are his teachings. Moses, not even Moses managed to abide by these laws? Then Jesus delivers a much more difficult Law that we can demonstrate through love, in love, being love. The Bible says, ‘the fruit of the spirit is love; and against such (love) there is no law.’ Gal.5:22,23 ‘I am not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfil! ‘ Mt.5:17 and by fulfilling it, he ended it, therefore are we no longer required to keep the laws of Moses of the Old Testament?’

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.’ Rom.10:4. Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor any of the NT scriptures imply that Christians are held to the cultic or ethical rules of the law of Moses. Paul clearly taught that Christians are no longer under the Old Law Gal 3:23-25; that the Old Law is brought to completion in Christ Rom 10:4; and its fulfilment is in love. Rom 13:8-10, Gal 5:14.


Jesus Christ showed us through the Sermon on the Mount and the 10 miracles that followed a new Constitution for Christianity, he showed us clearly that the Kingdom is not only precious words, but also one of wonderful works to be made by the Christians, because every Christian is another Christ Gal.2:20.

And so if we do not love everyone as our self then we are not fulfilling that Law of Love but just paying lip service to it. For those that receive and love all the children of GOD receive an abundance of love and blessings from GOD.

Rom 10:4,‘For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.’ The word ‘end’ in this passage is taken from the Greek word ‘teleo’ which means ‘To set out a definite goal the ultimate purpose.’ What it means is that Christ came with the pure intent to fulfil the law of righteous love which is zealous compassionate action. Through divine love we are able to realise our own heart of perfection, if we love God with all our heart and soul then we wish to see that the intent of Gods will-to-love is performed by others too. What is this pure intent? It is pure and perfected love which demonstrates what it is to love God and to love everything that God created, so the holiness and the righteousness of Gods love is honoured.

Therefore, when Christians read the Old Testament we have the choice to embrace the principles, ethics and morals and not be rigid in rules on spiritual practice. For example, the OT teaches us about God’s heart for the poor and downtrodden—we learn about the importance of being fair, just and charitable. Charity and love is sorely missing from Christianity whilst condemnation of anything or anyone still exists. As we move through this new millennium and into the Golden Age of Christ Consciousness, it is imperative that we willingly and lovingly eradicate judgement, prejudice and negative perceptions, also bring down the barriers between different religions and differentials between Christians, for as Paul said: ‘There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus’ Gal 3:28.

For humanity to realise wholeness and oneness with God, all types of segregation within and between whether by class, race, gender or spiritual practice will be liberated. Jesus embraces and honours everyone, equality, zero judgement, forgiveness, justice and freedom, so these principles become our model for achieving unity consciousness. The brotherhood of man, walking side by side, hand in hand, in the front line co-creating God’s Kingdom of Love, a new world for our children and the future of humanity.



Our final reminder is written in Luke 6:27-38

27 'But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. 31 And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.

32 'If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do well to those who do well to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

37 'Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.'

being love

Kim xxx

 

[Quahom1]

There is no law, pertaining to love, Dear Sacred. None. It is a choice, love, is a choice.

Which means you take your chances with the rest of us. Do we choose to love, or not?

There is no law, pertaining to love.

I am sorry, but that is fact.

v/r

Q

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Q

I agree

To abide by all laws is a choice by the individual are you saying that the commandment was not a law?

being love

Kim xx

 

[Quahom1]

Dear Q

I agree

To abide by all laws is a choice by the individual are you saying that the commandment was not a law?

being love

Kim xx

Dearest Sacred,

There is no law that states, "Thou shall, Love." (Except for God and man, and that is an inference, not a law). God never says, "Man shall love...man." Not in the old testement.

Not the way you attempt to present it...does that make sense?

I'm not trying to (as americans say, bust one's balls), I'm pointing out a Biblical fact (OT if you wish).

You can't make anyone love, ever. That is a choice. Sometimes a hard one.
It is not based on feelings, but rather, decisions. And love is never touchy feely. The Bible is quite clear about that.

To love often times means to hurt worse than the one being loved. But, we do it anyway.

v/r

Q

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Q

I am confused please clarify.

Was there not a two-fold commandment to ‘love God and love your neighbour as yourself.’

being love

Kim xx

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Q

The Holy Spirt as led me to this passage what say you to this?

John 15: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

17 This is my command: Love each other


The World Hates the Disciples

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.

22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin.
Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

23 He who hates me hates my Father as well.

24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’

26 “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

27And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

Source: New International Version of the Bible (NIV)

being love

Kim xx

 

[Basstian]

In the Garden God showed what was to come By sacrificing a lamb for the Sins of Adam and Eve. This lamb had done nothing wrong and yet it died as a result of their sins.

We see Abraham a Friend of God asked to prove his devotion and Love the test sacrifice His own son Isaac When He proved He was willing to do this He showed His devotion. God Also would Show His Devotion and Love by the Same manner.

Years later God set down the Law to define Sin and again Showed Sacrifice as the result the death of inocent animals only a symbol of what was to come.

Jesus came lived perfectly within the Law didnt break one of them Gods own Son His Lamb He was sacrificed for the sins of the whole world the ultimate sacrifice. He proved His righteousness by Living the law to the letter than Gave His life with no fight for our sins.

This like the the sacrifices of old did not take away sin from the world nor did it change the Law but rather Gave us the oppurtunity to claim Jesus as our sacrifice when we sin.

The law still being in effect defines our sin. When we Confess our Sins He is Faithful to forgive them.
Jesus showed greater love by laying down His life for us. He did refer to as friends.

There is a Law of Love I live by Choice. Love God Love Jesus show that Love as Jesus said by Keeping the comandments. When I fail He is my sacrifice. The Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World.

 

[Quahom1]

Dear Q

I am confused please clarify.

Was there not a two-fold commandment to ‘love God and love your neighbour as yourself.’

being love

Kim xx

Yes, Sacred Star

But not in the original 10 commandments.

v/r

Q

 

[Basstian]

1Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
I should not ever place anyone or anything before God.
I see no need to do away with that Idea.

2 Thou shalt not make untothee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Like the First I need no Statue to bow down to I am blessed by what I believe and have not seen. I see no reason to do away with that.

3 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain
Two ways to look at this one is using Gods name in a worthless manner such as cursing slang etc. etc. The other is in the same way apon marriage my wife "took" my name. I should not ever think being called a child of God is a worthless thing and I should live and act as His representitive. I dont see this as one worthy of the trash.

4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

This is the longest commandment it ties me to my creator entitles me to the blessing attatched to the sabbath. It is really a blessing but one I am commanded to accept. I always laugh when I see people who look at this as something Grievous God tells us to take some time out to rest each week from the rat race and we complain about it.??? I myself see nothing wrong with taking a Day off to spend with God I will keep this one too.

5 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
NoBody who is a parent wants to see this one eradicated. But wait here again is a blessing attached to a commandment. I am starting to see a pattern.

6 Thou shalt not kill.
Simple.... any votes for getting rid of this one? Two people get involved the Killer and the Killed neither of which I want to be.

7 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Hummm be true to your vows. Trust me there is a blessing with this one too. I would rather keep this one just for my own peace of mind.

8 Thou shalt not steal.
Looking out for my stuff I think I want to keep this one and hope others do also.

9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Truth is I like the Truth
10 Thou shalt not covet
Ok I should be satisfied with what I have work hard for the things I want and not resent others for having more? I dont see that as a bad idea lets keep it too.


Now for some more scripture about these

Deut 13:3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.Deut 13:4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Now that verse looks familiar I bet we see that again somewhere.

How about this one

Le 19:18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Wait! wait! wait! I know who used those verses

But I thought He came up with a new Idea that did away with the old law?

Fact is He was teaching something very familiar along with the Law the question was "Which is the greatest Law pick one". He Didnt He simply Quoted Scripture that Brought out the very best In the Law as a whole.

I as a simple man who's wisdom is far below that of God can see no reason to do away with any of those laws. Can you really say Jesus would????

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Q

Thank you for the clarification.

Love Kimxx