lunamoth said:
As this conversation has turned to a discussion of the nature of a Manifestation of God, I'd just like to add that I have found both the Baha'i Model and the Christian Trinity to be helpful and enlightening in my quest to know God. These ideas are different and at odds, to be sure, but I think this is only because both ultimately fall short and are limited by human language and understanding. "It's a wave! No! It's a particle! But it has properties of a wave! But see, here it has the properties of a particle!" (1 Corinthians 13:12 NIV) Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
great sentiments! I also happen to have a background in physics and specifically did much reading on quantum mechanics!
lunamoth said:
The Baha'i model of the sun and mirror really helped me get a "feel" for the incarnation of God in Jesus. ...In the Baha'i Model, as far as I understand it, the Manifestation not only comes to give us guidance and love, but also then acts as a kind of secondary mirror. The Spirit that we personally receive in our lives is that which is reflected off, or through, the Manifestation of God. I alway got the picture of something like a filter, actually, protecting us from the full force of the knowledge, or Face, of God, which as we read in the OT would kill us instantly.
Actually there are references to this idea too ---"Know of a certainty that in every Dispensation the light of Divine Revelation hath been vouchsafed unto men in direct proportion to their spiritual capacity. Consider the sun. How feeble its rays the moment it appeareth above the horizon. How gradually its warmth and potency increase as it approacheth its zenith, enabling meanwhile all created things to adapt themselves to the growing intensity of its light. How steadily it declineth until it reacheth its setting point. Were it, all of a sudden, to manifest the energies latent within it, it would, no doubt, cause injury to all created things.... In like manner, if the Sun of Truth were suddenly to reveal, at the earliest stages of its manifestation, the full measure of the potencies which the providence of the Almighty hath bestowed upon it, the earth of human understanding would waste away and be consumed; for men's hearts would neither sustain the intensity of its revelation, nor be able to mirror forth the radiance of its light. Dismayed and overpowered, they would cease to exist."
lunamoth said:
The Trinity is different. One of the main differences I see is that the Trinity is not hierarchal, as the Baha'i sun and mirror model is: The Father, Son and Spirit are all equal and "interpenetrating" Persons of God in the Trinity. The Father is still often viewed "at the top," but all three Persons are involved in every act of God, rather than being three different phases of God. I've seen some explanations of the Baha'i model that suggest that Baha'u'llah, while being the return of Christ, is the return of Christ Spirit as the Father, rather than as the Son. However, with the exception of the sacrifice, the work of Jesus the Son seems to me to be the same as the work of the Manifestation Mediator in the Bahais view: teaching, loving, healing, redemption, salvation (although Baha'i does not emphasize redemption and individual salvation and, to my understanding, uses different language and metaphysical construct around this whole concept: no fall, no original sin).
Generally correct - however each Manifestation was given a specific Mission, a Revelelation which had eternal truths as well as specific applications to that era. Each religion established also set a specific mechanism for the promulgation and protection of that Revelation among the believers which Baha'is call the Lesser Covenant (the Greater Covenant being that the Manifestation is the Mediator of God's love and grace and our obedience and training.) Jesus' Station as the Son is the core of His Revelation in that sense.
lunamoth said:
...
What I think is added by the concept of the Trinity is the powerful emphasis on the message that God is Love, and the love between the Three Persons of the Trinity is the source and perfect example of all the love we have and can have for God and each other.
While I agree that the reality referred to by the term Trinity depends on a most profound and penetrating personal love and sharing, the problem very inherent is that this description must be self-limiting to only Jesus' religion as we find it today. If the Trinity is the measure of that love for you, you can never find it in Krishna, Buddha, Moses, and so on. A Christian might agree with me there - but I say so not because that love was not present among Them as a Christian perhaps would maintain but because the word Trinity by definition must refer to Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God-the-Father and not any other. It's alittle like the problem in religion studies when reviewing the divisions in a religion and calling them denominations when speaking of Islam or Buddhism. Denominations are explicitly a Christian reference. The idea is present in other religions but if you must us denomination as your measuring stick, then you are placing a barrier to other ways this idea is presented and supposing somehow Martin Luther is applicable to what happened to Ali and his successors which begs all kinds of cultural barriers.
Another thought I would share is that the wealth of Scripture the Baha'is have cannot be encapsulated in a few posts. Even a lifetime of study cannot adequetly attain to a full understanding of even one divine quality let alone the most important ones. And from our view the essence of this problem is the same in all the religions. Any path, taken seriously, with the full measure of heart, mind and soul, will be rewarded by God not because we will have earned it but because God loves us trying.
lunamoth said:
In Baha'i we do not get the message of a bride marrying her Bridegroom, that final and complete merging with God for which we yearn in this life, an eternity in perfect love. In the next world, in the Baha'i view, we continue to strive, aided or perhaps handicapped by what we've accomplished or not here in this life.
Immediately I think of
this albiet a preliminary translation. There are other things I can think of but the details require more time and care.
lunamoth said:
Just as with the Christian view of Jesus as fully human and fully divine, the dual station of Baha'u'llah poses a problem for the human intellect.
You may pardon the length but here's a quote from one of the greatest Baha'i philosophers about this very issue - and it's final resolution:
One of the laws and ordinances peculiar to the Bahai religion is the law prohibiting the interpretation of the Word of God. For interpretation of the Words and exposition of personal opinion has been one of the greatest means of dissension in the former religions. the cause of darkening the horizon of faith and concealing the real meaning of the Book of God.
It is an evident fact that learned men differ in their minds, and the natural gifts of sagacity and intelligence or the lack of understanding and comprehension vary in degrees among them. Thus when the door of interpretation and perverting of the Words from their outward meaning is opened, strange opinions and curious contradictory interpretations will result and different sects will arise among the one people and one religious community.
Consequently Baha’u’llah has explicitly commanded His followers to wholly abandon the door of interpretation and follow the Words revealed in the Tablets according to their outward meaning, so that the events which have transpired among the past nations should not recur among the Bahai people, and the unwelcome happenings which appeared among the various sects due to difference in mentality and viewpoint should not become manifest in this new auspicious day, which is the day of the glorious Lord.
Thus one of the explicit commands of this great Manifestation is the ordinance abrogating differences which separate men. It is because one of the occasions of dissension is difference of scholars with regard to the station of the Manifestation of the Cause. In former religions, even as testified by history, it has become evident that when in a question of this kind a difference has arisen between two of the doctors of religion, both parties were firm in their standpoints and held tenaciously to their sides, while the laity, according to their usage, would adhere some to one and some to another, thus closing the doors to agreement and unity to such an extent that religious fraternity was changed into deep and bitter enmity, scientific dissension terminating in bloody strife and warfare. This is illustrated by differences which arose between Arius the priest and Alexander the Bishop of Constantinople, regarding the Trinity, in the fourth century AD; also the Nestorian differences which took place in the fifth century between Nestorius the Bishop of Constantinople and other bishops, which caused terrible wars and the shedding of precious blood. The effect of these sad dissensions has lasted until the present day. These are clear proofs and evidences for the point at issue.
Time does not allow us to make mention of the numerous sects and divisions of the Gnostics and others, of which the church historians have counted more than thirty, and incorporated them under the term: “Born of philosophy.” All seekers of full accounts are referred to authoritative books on the subject, in order that they may clearly realize that all these divisions and sects came from the disagreements of the doctors as to the degree and station of His Holiness Christ, and their persistence in their respective opinions. The subject of disagreement by the doctors as to the station of the Manifestation of God has been one of those abstruse and difficult questions to solve which proved beyond the power of great minds and baffled a mighty king like Constantine the Great. For notwithstanding the assistance and co-operation of the great bishops of the East and West he could not reconcile the various parties to the Aryan controversy. Nay, during this long time the power of local councils, the sword of European powers and the verdicts of Inquisitorial Boards failed to remove divisions and schisms caused by metaphysical discussions. But the removal of this indissoluble knot and incurable disease by the easiest of means has been announced in the holy Bahai literature, for Baha’u’llah in one of His holy Tablets has clearly revealed the following: “Since men differ in their degree of knowledge, if two persons should be found to possess different viewpoints as regards the degree and station of the Manifestation of God, both are acceptable before God, for, in accord with the blessed verse: `Verily, we have created souls different in degrees;’ God has created men different in understanding and diverse in manners. But if those having two points of view engage in conflict and strife while expressing their views, both of them are rejected. For, by knowing the Manifestation of God it is intended to unify the hearts, cultivate souls and to teach the truth of God, whereas conflict and strife of two persons with two different points of view would do harm to the Cause of God. Consequently both of them are referred to the fire.” This was the purpose of the blessed Tablet in brief. Accordingly in the Holy Cause no one has power to create inharmony, and because of fear of falling, no one dares to persist in his own opinion at the expense of harmony."
lunamoth said:
Better to not worry too much about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and just leave it up to our hearts.
I offer this in the Spirit of greater understanding and I welcome any insights you all might have.
Allah u'Abha Friends, and In His Peace,
lunamoth
You have spoken well and we are in much aggreement.
