Santa Theory

Scarlet Pimpernel said:
Bandit, that's hilarious...but your engineer is forgetting that not all Christian children receive their presents from Santa...as far as I know he's pretty much an American (and Canadian?) phenomenon...

Granted, my ideas of a British Christmas come pretty much straight from Dickens and Albert Finney, but I know there are a lot of Brits on this site to set me straight...last I heard, you guys got Father Christmas, a tall skinny guy, or has Santa taken over his route? And France and Spain, and I believe most of South America, get their presents from the Christ Child Himself. Here in the Netherlands, it's the original Saint Nicholas, another tall skinny guy dressed like a bishop (and oddly enough he lives in Spain). In Scandinavia it's the Christmas Gnome (don't ask), and I have no idea who comes to well-behaved Christian children in Asia, Africa, Australia, or Eastern Europe, for that matter.

And path of one, those Santa letters are a beautiful idea - your mom was a great woman.
I don't have any problem with Santa - I see him as the spirit of generosity too. I think most kids outgrow him quickly enough that it doesn't do any harm. I think it's more dependent on the atmosphere in the home that determines how materialistic kids are at Christmas.

he forgot that santa has magic & can float up the chimney by putiing a finger on the side of his nose. if we dont have a chimney he comes through the front door. LOL oh, & the reindeer have magic too. I find all those stories & songs fascinating.
i agree the materialism starts with the parent & starts at home.
 
St. Nicholas was a real person. He filled the shoes of children who were good, with sweetmeats, and other small trinkets, and those who were bad, with coal and hazel branch switches. He was a cobbler, whom the whole town knew and respected. So he heard who did what and when and why...through out the year. And he loved the children. So he did what he thought was best for each.

It was a local tradition, until one night Nicholas was accosted and killed by bandits. As a remembrance, the parents continued the filling of the shoes of children with sweetmeats, trinkets, coal and switches, as required. The legend began...

Until 1883, Christmas in big city America was not a holy event. It was a racous, drunk fest. It was however, kept holy and pious in prairie homes, and was a time of gratefullness and reflection. People gathered together in the dead of winter to warm eachother with company, and understand or reflect on the concept of a savior, in the still of winter.

The city did not catch on this, until 20 years later (and when suburbs began to sprout).

Santa Claus, is St.Nicholas, Kris Kringle, Father winter, us, all roled into one.

Satan has nothing to do with it. After all, Santa Claus gives, with no expectation of receiving anything in return...

There is a picture I've seen somewhere, that shows Santa Claus kneeling before the infant with his cap in hand, head bowed in respect, and the message is "the true meaning of Christmas".
We are Santa Claus (if only for once a year).

v/r

Q
 
Going slightly off topic, but as a child, I seriously planned to kidnap Santa and use him to gain world domination :( It was a perfect plan and would have worked.... but there was one tiny problem he never really showed up.... :| Theres me at ten years old ready to take over the world and boom..... foiled again, Would of gotten away with it too if it wasnt for those pesky kids!... Kinda going scooby doo here sorry.
 
Quahom1 said:
St. Nicholas was a real person. He filled the shoes of children who were good, with sweetmeats, and other small trinkets, and those who were bad, with coal and hazel branch switches. He was a cobbler, whom the whole town knew and respected. So he heard who did what and when and why...through out the year. And he loved the children. So he did what he thought was best for each.

It was a local tradition, until one night Nicholas was accosted and killed by bandits. As a remembrance, the parents continued the filling of the shoes of children with sweetmeats, trinkets, coal and switches, as required. The legend began...

Until 1883, Christmas in big city America was not a holy event. It was a racous, drunk fest. It was however, kept holy and pious in prairie homes, and was a time of gratefullness and reflection. People gathered together in the dead of winter to warm eachother with company, and understand or reflect on the concept of a savior, in the still of winter.


There is a picture I've seen somewhere, that shows Santa Claus kneeling before the infant with his cap in hand, head bowed in respect, and the message is "the true meaning of Christmas".
We are Santa Claus (if only for once a year).

v/r

Q

nice post Q & informative.:)
 
17th Angel said:
Going slightly off topic, but as a child, I seriously planned to kidnap Santa and use him to gain world domination :( It was a perfect plan and would have worked.... but there was one tiny problem he never really showed up.... :| Theres me at ten years old ready to take over the world and boom..... foiled again, Would of gotten away with it too if it wasnt for those pesky kids!... Kinda going scooby doo here sorry.

ah. the grinch who stole Christmas.:)
 
lol never seen that film or read that book... Maybe I should. Not like that now, but at the time I believed it was an awesome idea.... Oh well. Also just for the record, I think a few people may have the wrong idea. I myself do not believe Santa is a trick of Satan... I just thought it would be interesting to see what people thought, sadly I just plainly do not believe in Santa, for obvious reasons.
 
17th Angel said:
lol never seen that film or read that book... Maybe I should. Not like that now, but at the time I believed it was an awesome idea.... Oh well. Also just for the record, I think a few people may have the wrong idea. I myself do not believe Santa is a trick of Satan... I just thought it would be interesting to see what people thought, sadly I just plainly do not believe in Santa, for obvious reasons.

But I submit with respect...you are Santa (as are we all).
 
By the way, in high school I attended church with the woman whose father was the original model for the Coca-Cola Santa Claus. I visited her house once and her front hallway was full to bursting with photographs of her father dressed as Santa in various poses, as models for the artists. Yes indeedy, Santa Claus comes from a small farming town in central California...

How's that for six degrees of separation?
 
Scarlet Pimpernel said:
By the way, in high school I attended church with the woman whose father was the original model for the Coca-Cola Santa Claus. I visited her house once and her front hallway was full to bursting with photographs of her father dressed as Santa in various poses, as models for the artists. Yes indeedy, Santa Claus comes from a small farming town in central California...

How's that for six degrees of separation?

Cool! But can he be linked to Kevin Bacon? :D

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
But I submit with respect...you are Santa (as are we all).

Quahom1, because of what you represent I take interest in your posts, could you tell me with slightly more detail how I am Santa? Do you mean because I give gifts to others? If so then, I sadly haven't lol. My Girlfriend really loves X-mas, so this year I am going to try and make an effort to get into the, what do you call it..... Christmas spirit. Bah hum bug.. ;)
 
Oooh! I had such a discussion with some Reiki-adherents on another list about this.

The common figure of the roly-poly red-and-white ho-ho-ho santa was commisssioned by Coca Cola, sometime in the 30s I think (I could be way off on dates), as part of a Christmas advertising campaign. They employed a German emigré anthropologist to come up with a figure, and so he did. This image is (speaking as an advertising man) a triumph of brand marketing.

What Coca-Cola was unaware of, and what their boffin never bothered to tell them, was that his image for Santa was dervied from Northern European shamanic practice, and nothing to do with Christianity at all.

THE NORTH POLE
The whole thing revolves around the psychotropic mushroom, Fly Agaric. This is a toxic and poisonous mushroom, the preparation of which was known to the shamans all across Northern Europe. Best eaten dried, there are others means...

COME FLY WITH ME
Reindeer have a paticular fondness for the mushroom, and like pigs with truffles, would sniff them out, eat them, and become intoxicated. In some places the urine of a 'bombed out' reindeer was collected as the drug passed through the system becuase some of the more toxic elements had been filtered out. This urine could then be drunk with safety, and the drinker would then join the reindeer!

If you want to know how you catch a urinating reindeer - you don't, but you follow it, and eat the yellow snow in its wake. Many believe this is the origin of the European term 'getting pissed' (ie drunk) whereas 'across the pond', in the colonies, I believe you chaps consider it something to do with becoming annoyed?

In other places the owners waited untilk the creature 'came down,' then slaughtered and ate it. The fresh meat was still strongly affective.

There aare records of this drinking the urine process going through 5 or 6 people before the urine loses its potency!

SANTA'S OUTFIT
This, the 'magic mushroom' with it's white stalk, red cap spotted white, gace the colour scheme for the Santa outfit. In pre-1900 English Christmas cards, the Christmas figure (a generic mix of Christian and pagan myth) usually wears green.

COMING DOWN THE CHIMNEY
The Siberian winter dwelling, or yurt, had a smokehole in the roof, supported by a birch pole. Often the yurt would be completely buried by drifting snow, and visiting friends, for the athletic, involved entry through the smoke hole.

The village headsmen could afford fly agaric, whereas most could not. But the headman would collect his own urine, which, like the reindeer, was still strongly affective. Kept in wineskins, this was often given to the poor in midwinter festivals. As the yurts were snowed in, the eaasiest was was lowering this 'gift' through the smoke hole in the roof.

Also at midwinter festivals, the shaman would enter the yurt through the smokehole, carrying a sack with dried Fly Agaric or urine from already intoxicated people, perform his ceremonies, and ascend the birch pole and leave. Ordinary people believed that the shaman could fly, either himself or on flying reindeer.

In the shamanic traditions of Siberia, the shaman would ingest fly-agaric in order to journey to the Sky Father and bring back gifts of knowledge and power for his community. Dressed in a warm, fur-lined, ritual costume, with a thick belt hung with bells, the shaman would make his journey at nightfall to consult with these otherworldly spirits.

It seems that there is also a symbiotic relationship between the fly-agaric mushroom and the birch tree - the mushrooms grow in the shade of the tree - which would account for the 'sacred birch' tradition in European shamanism. Indeed, within shamanism, trees, per se, are held as sacred, as homes of the elementals or gateways to spirit, and connections between different life forms (such as the mushroom and the tree) are revered since the shamanic belief is that we are all - every life form - connected, one to another.

Thomas
 
Interesting detail, Thomas, re to santa and siberian shamanism. Had read something re that years ago but did not recall these details. Who knows for sure what the actual point inspirational origin may have been for the contemporary icons of Christmas we now have, but I enjoy reading regarding parallels. Heck 1 of the reasons I enjoy the Christmas tree is I associate it symbolically with the Tree of Life/Knowledge, (and shamanic myth of course often involved shamans climbing their Tree of Knowledge). One could go all jungian/archetypal re the various figures and aspects of Christmas but simply put only makes sense to me that Christmas was as a date associated with the winter solstice as whether literally or figuratively we're speaking of a divine light being born in the darkest time of a cycle.

Rainer Marie Rilke said this about the "tree:"

"There rose a tree. O pure transcendence!
O Orpheus singing. O tall the tree in the ear!
And all was silent, Yet even in the silence
There was a new beginning, beckoning, change."

But back to Saint Nick-disregarding the over-commercialization of Christmas in general, what's great to me about Santa is the same thing I feel about Halloween-joining in the delight of the children. You ever notice that whenever as an adult we join in the momentary delight, wonder, and unbridled joy of a child, we to are transported to a freer, more open state of being? My biggest joy about viewing all the Christmas decorations and traditions be it in a home or about the town is witnessing the children oohing and awing. Those to me are also invitations to new beginnings. Take care, Earl
 
17th Angel said:
Quahom1, because of what you represent I take interest in your posts, could you tell me with slightly more detail how I am Santa? Do you mean because I give gifts to others? If so then, I sadly haven't lol. My Girlfriend really loves X-mas, so this year I am going to try and make an effort to get into the, what do you call it..... Christmas spirit. Bah hum bug.. ;)

LOL ;) That is what I meant. Just don't get her a towel or a VCR. Girls do like pretty rocks though. Usually 3/4 carat or bigger, and clear with just the right amount of fire and brilliance in them. (just giving ideas) :D

v/r

Q

(p.s. my wife had to work to find hers. She had to solve riddles, then find the next clue, solve that riddle and so on - all in poetry fashion- which led her from the tree through out the house, and finally back to the tree, the top of the tree, where the star or angel would sit. Instead, there was a single white light taped to the back of her rock, which expressed it in a prism rainbow effect). Needless to say the fire in the hearth that night was delightful...:cool: :p :D
 
Quahom1 said:
LOL ;) That is what I meant. Just don't get her a towel or a VCR. Girls do like pretty rocks though. Usually 3/4 carat or bigger, and clear with just the right amount of fire and brilliance in them. (just giving ideas) :D

v/r

Q

(p.s. my wife had to work to find hers. She had to solve riddles, then find the next clue, solve that riddle and so on - all in poetry fashion- which led her from the tree through out the house, and finally back to the tree, the top of the tree, where the star or angel would sit. Instead, there was a single white light taped to the back of her rock, which expressed it in a prism rainbow effect). Needless to say the fire in the hearth that night was delightful...:cool: :p :D

hee hee, or a toaster.
that rock riddle would make you Santa, Q. Wonder if that is where "I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus, underneath the mistletoe last night" came from.
 
earl said:
Interesting detail, Thomas, re to santa and siberian shamanism. Had read something re that years ago but did not recall these details. Who knows for sure what the actual point inspirational origin may have been for the contemporary icons of Christmas we now have, but I enjoy reading regarding parallels. Heck 1 of the reasons I enjoy the Christmas tree is I associate it symbolically with the Tree of Life/Knowledge, (and shamanic myth of course often involved shamans climbing their Tree of Knowledge). One could go all jungian/archetypal re the various figures and aspects of Christmas but simply put only makes sense to me that Christmas was as a date associated with the winter solstice as whether literally or figuratively we're speaking of a divine light being born in the darkest time of a cycle.

Rainer Marie Rilke said this about the "tree:"

"There rose a tree. O pure transcendence!
O Orpheus singing. O tall the tree in the ear!
And all was silent, Yet even in the silence
There was a new beginning, beckoning, change."

But back to Saint Nick-disregarding the over-commercialization of Christmas in general, what's great to me about Santa is the same thing I feel about Halloween-joining in the delight of the children. You ever notice that whenever as an adult we join in the momentary delight, wonder, and unbridled joy of a child, we to are transported to a freer, more open state of being? My biggest joy about viewing all the Christmas decorations and traditions be it in a home or about the town is witnessing the children oohing and awing. Those to me are also invitations to new beginnings. Take care, Earl
thought I'd tag a bit more onto this as relates to a "santa" archetype. The figure I've long been most drawn to in Buddhism both in terms of story and image is Pu-Tai, (known as ho-tai in Japanese). Typically all those chintzy stautes you see in Chinese restaurants are sort of re to him-the "laughing buddha." Well the concept was reputedly derived from a real 12 c.e. Chinese itinerant Chan monk by the name Pu-Tai. Always depicted as a corpulent fellow-though of course bald-headed & no beard. "Pu-Tai" meant hemp sack: & referred to the fact he wandered freely carrying a large hemp sack from which whenever he encountered children he would extract gifts to give them and would unself-consciously play with them. He is considered the patron saint of children and represented the total, innocent, openness of Being-also became the patron saint of bar-tenders in Japan hundreds of years later, though there may be some thematic similarity there;) At any rate, to display some of my psyche, from the jungian perspective images that come to us, (dreams, visions, etc.), or to which we are drawn often represent qualities of being which may be underdeveloped in the individual; represent part of the path we should be walking to incarnate more of our wholeness or to retrieve that which may have been left behind. In this case, quite true for me-though I've got the corpulent thing down & do have a gray going on white beard, could really stand to become more Santa/Pu-Tai-like. Guess it also explains why i often see children as real role models:) Ho-ho-ho, Earl
 
Thomas said:
The common figure of the roly-poly red-and-white ho-ho-ho santa was commisssioned by Coca Cola, sometime in the 30s I think (I could be way off on dates), as part of a Christmas advertising campaign.

Could very well have been in the 30s - I always thought it was in the late 40s. But I have no real idea how old the woman was with whom I went to church. However, as far as the roly-polyness, you're about 100 years off. In Clement Clarke Moore's 1823 poem, 'Twas the Night Before Christmas, you encounter the lines,

His eyes -- how they twinkled! his dimples how merry!
His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!
His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow;

The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth,
And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath;
He had a broad face and a little round belly,
That shook, when he laughed like a bowlful of jelly.


He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,...
So there you go.
 
Quahom1 said:
LOL ;) That is what I meant. Just don't get her a towel or a VCR. Girls do like pretty rocks though. Usually 3/4 carat or bigger, and clear with just the right amount of fire and brilliance in them. (just giving ideas) :D

v/r

Q

(p.s. my wife had to work to find hers. She had to solve riddles, then find the next clue, solve that riddle and so on - all in poetry fashion- which led her from the tree through out the house, and finally back to the tree, the top of the tree, where the star or angel would sit. Instead, there was a single white light taped to the back of her rock, which expressed it in a prism rainbow effect). Needless to say the fire in the hearth that night was delightful...:cool: :p :D

I wouldn't give me Ideas like that, cause I am the type of person to just decieve for the joy of it... I would end up making thousands of riddles that were pointless and led her around in a circle so it would keep her busy and I would have more time to snipe carol singers....... Just kidding.... probally. Tis a season to be jolly indeed. Hmm were was I going with this... *thinks* Oh yes, thanks for the suggestion Quahom! I will ponder many nights upon this. Oh and is it me? Or do all males get socks for christmas? No matter what! Come rain or shine! Its stupid sock design time... :|
 
Santa = Satan?

Kindest Regards, all!

I was doing a little searching (for something totally unrelated) and stumbled on this:

The history of the death and resurrection of the beast-god that sired Santa is older than Greece, even older than modern humans. It was a ceremony of death and resurrection, of life and fertility, carried on by an ancient aboriginal people - called elves or fairies by later settlers - and adopted by these settlers, who replaced them and continued the sacred rituals throughout Europe.

Of course, burgeoning Christianity vigorously fought to suppress this widespread "pagan" ritual, but it persisted. In response, the church used the Wild Man’s form to depict its Satan. Under pressure from Christianity, villagers, holding to their old festivals while adopting the new Christian religion, managed to keep the old Wild Man alive by transforming him. In village festivals he became the Fool; in this role he strode at the front of his old troupe as master of ceremonies, the outspoken comic who introduced the troupe and made fun of local citizens and mores. In this role he evolved into the symbol of Christmas in America, Great Britain, Sweden, Norway, and Germany. This fur-clad fool and social commentator took yet another direction in Italy, where, as Harlequin, he evolved from Medieval Devil to a primary figure in the commedia dell’arte and became a standard character in French and British Christmases. In all, the Wild Man adapted in almost infinite ways under pressures from Church, State, and the varying influences of civilisation.

http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/118_santan.shtml

There is a great deal more to the article, and I found it to be quite interesting. I have read of some of the things mentioned, enough to believe the author is, for the most part, interpreting the data correctly.

I read Christian literature (tracts) long ago that tried to tie Santa to Satan, but never really got around to explaining quite "how" this was (other than the applied numerology of the two names). It took an article written a quarter century later, by someone I presume is not a Christian, to more fully explain the connection between Santa Claus and a very ancient Pagan "wild man" tradition.

Any thoughts about the article?

I thought it interesting, if questionable, that the practice can be traced back 70 thousand years and practiced by Neandertals.
 
Re: Santa = Satan?

After checking the link, I ended up registering to the site to access the article through this link. Hope that doesn't create any problems. ;)
 
Juan rather interesting-well they do refer to old St. Nick as the "jolly old elf." The only connection between Santa & "Satan" that makes sense to me is via the "Wild Man" archetype, though that is a long stretch to current notions/images of "Satan." As many probably know though, our common depictions of "Satan" are essentially based on images of Pan-the goat-man-who as an image of the "Wild Man" archetype. "Wild Man," being a bit like the name implies-free flowing one's innate earth/body-based energy & joi de'vivre (sp?). For early Christians who were quite uncomfortable/fearful of things earth or body-based; were fearful and suprressive of lively energies that didn't fit then Christian doctrines, it made sense to project onto the "Wild Man" archetype the "demonic." I'm gettin' all Jungian here-but such confusion of course represented Christianity projecting shadow elements onto this archetype-shoving some of their playful life enregy into a shadow bag they called "satan" where some have tried to keep in their personal shadow bag and wrestle with that "devil" ever since. Take care, Earl
 
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