Christians converting to Islam and Judaism

[Quahom1]

...But I'd like to say in response to this post that Peter denied Jesus three times to save his life and in reward Peter is the rock in which Christendom was built on...

Peter denied Christ to save his own life, and in spite of that, Peter is the rock...for Peter remembered the words of Jesus and broke down, and acknowledged Christ, after the crow of the cocque (rooster). Then spent his life promoting the words of Christ, even unto his death. From coward to absolute fearlessness, was the life of Peter, and Jesus was the key influence...

Christianity is not a coward's faith, by any means. In fact it is one of the hardest faiths to follow. In fact it is so hard to follow that not many can. Oh, alot pay lip service, but when it comes down to brass tacks, many are early "Peter"...

Amazing that one of the simplest faiths are the most difficult to accept. Like diamonds, the simplest stones, yet the hardest to breach...

v/r

Q

 

[truthseeker]

Peter denied Christ to save his own life, and in spite of that, Peter is the rock...for Peter remembered the words of Jesus and broke down, and acknowledged Christ, after the crow of the cocque (rooster). Then spent his life promoting the words of Christ, even unto his death. From coward to absolute fearlessness, was the life of Peter, and Jesus was the key influence...

and Peter was able to do that because he lived. The very thing that Jesus wanted and perhaps specifically intended.

Christianity is not a coward's faith, by any means. In fact it is one of the hardest faiths to follow. In fact it is so hard to follow that not many can. Oh, alot pay lip service, but when it comes down to brass tacks, many are early "Peter"...

and early "Peter" was as good a Peter as was later "Peter". Christianity is a simple faith of brotherhood and good works. Now you want to get into all the militant stuff then I suppose it can be quite difficult because everybody ain't into that. Though everybody ain't into brotherhood either.

Amazing that one of the simplest faiths are the most difficult to accept. Like diamonds, the simplest stones, yet the hardest to breach...

Diamonds are just as complex or simple as some other stones. And knowing that it is the hardest rock may make a diamond a bit more complex. However, you're talking about gems or you're talking about the core of people's souls. And while Christianity may be a gem, everyone doesn't value a diamond as the most prized gem. While diamonds can be an asset, I happen to appreciate sapphires more. Point is, ra ra for Christianity - it's always good to pump up your affiliation. But how are you going fulfill God's purpose by coming with the "mine is better than yours" tactic? That's why many Christians feel like everybody's coming down on Christianity so hard because they are always throwing rocks when their house is made out of glass. Jesus is good, nope better that, he is LORD - but there are some dangerous flaws within the understanding. And I believe the midst of the confusion lies after Acts. No one really disputes the Gospels. But the splits in the Body occur after Acts.

 

[Dondi]

i just have one thought for you Dondi on this post, then i am done.

if they come to chop off your head or throw you into prison for believing in Christ & having a bible, which happens every single day on our little cozy planet of 'LOVE',
are you going to deny that Jesus is the Christ to save your life?

If I were in that situation, and believe me I thought about what I do in that case, I hope that my faith in God would enable me to be strong, or at the very least, God would give me the grace and peace to hold my faith in Jesus Christ should I be threatened with life or limb.

I have already cosigned myself to death. I've come to terms with death. Not that I have any suicidal bent toward death, but I have a peace of God of the sentence that lies with each and every one of us. I know the forgiveness and love of God in my heart, which includes peace that Jesus gives, not as the world gives. This is the love I am talking about. If everyone would just accept Gods love and love others, then this would be a "cozy planet".

But of course this is not the case. But I have the hope that someday it will be. In the meantime, I just want to share the love I've experienced from God to as many as God brings into my life (easier said than done, sometimes), but I alway am comforted by God's love, even if no one loves me back.

Christianity may well be the closest we get to the truth of God, IMO. No one is belittling the greatness of God in Jesus Christ. But I think God's arm reaches out farther than we think, that's all.

 

[truthseeker]

I appreciate that comment, Dondi. Comes a time when you will eventually stand for what is right for what ever reason. There are so many who have died for a cause that was world-changing - that others may live in some sort of peace. That is not everybody's purpose, but God has given some people their purpose and martyrdom is how the world result that purpose. We often know it when we take that purpose on. But as Quahom would probably agree, no war is fought without casualities and no victory is attained without bloodshed.

 

[Quahom1]

and Peter was able to do that because he lived. The very thing that Jesus wanted and perhaps specifically intended.

and early "Peter" was as good a Peter as was later "Peter". Christianity is a simple faith of brotherhood and good works. Now you want to get into all the militant stuff then I suppose it can be quite difficult because everybody ain't into that. Though everybody ain't into brotherhood either.

Diamonds are just as complex or simple as some other stones. And knowing that it is the hardest rock may make a diamond a bit more complex. However, you're talking about gems or you're talking about the core of people's souls. And while Christianity may be a gem, everyone doesn't value a diamond as the most prized gem. While diamonds can be an asset, I happen to appreciate sapphires more. Point is, ra ra for Christianity - it's always good to pump up your affiliation. But how are you going fulfill God's purpose by coming with the "mine is better than yours" tactic? That's why many Christians feel like everybody's coming down on Christianity so hard because they are always throwing rocks when their house is made out of glass. Jesus is good, nope better that, he is LORD - but there are some dangerous flaws within the understanding. And I believe the midst of the confusion lies after Acts. No one really disputes the Gospels. But the splits in the Body occur after Acts.

Diamond is simply carbon compressed and heated to extreme values. Resulting in a very fine stone that looks pretty, can cut glass, or can drill through the core of the earth, and not melt or go dull. It can deflect a barrage of bullets, and if making into sheets were possible, would be excellent in deflecting radiation. It splits light into every color under the rainbow, or can be used in the reverse (collect every color and project pure white light).

That said, I'm not pumping up anything. I merely expressed an opinion that apparently you don't like. I personally do not care if one wishes to be Christian or not (I'm sure you've figured that out by now). But, I will express my opinion, also whether one likes it or not. And I opine that there is more anger in people's opinions of Christianity than there is logic.

As for my affiliation...well I don't often bring it up, since most here consider it a "cult" (lol), and lashing out at me is not very constructive, since I have more or less the constitution of a duck's ass.

Early Peter is a far cry from the Peter after the Holy Spirit touched and entered him...but then that would take some in depth reading to discover. Oh, he was the same boisterous character, but he was tempered and guided in his ways and words...and he never cowarded again.

Christianity is so much more than a brotherhood, alligned with good works. That is a POV from the outside looking in.

by the way...saphire is a diamond, just imperfect, just like an emerald and a ruby...hence the colors...

Christians are not perfect, they just keep trying...

Who is fuming at whom?

v/r

Q

 

[taijasi]

More on diamonds, for you - read on:

On a personal note, somewhat more in keeping with the original thread topic ...

... though I am not a convert to Islam or Judaism, I did walk away from a conventional Christian background (Lutheran).

My experience was perfectly positive, and I look back with great fondness on the pastor I knew for many years, and on the many true friends that I made in the Lutheran church where I grew up. The pastor, as it turns out, was perhaps the most loving, compassionate, and caring man that I have ever met.

But for a 13 year-old, it's easier to sleep in and watch cartoons, and in our family, it was eventually necessary for my parents to just give in and let me be. I am deeply indebted to them, and very grateful for the 13 years that they did "make me" go to church. Other than just being a stubborn kid, I really quite enjoyed it ... okay, sometimes. But it was a small church, everyone certainly knew everyone else, and this was a true "faith community," which had a strong influence on my early life, values & morals.

Now, although I walked away from the church (and also christianity) as I'm sure many folks did as teenagers, it is also true that this was precisely at that time when I was beginning to think for myself, and to ask questions about life, the universe, and everyone (God included). I was a bright kid, and I had better things to do than sit around watching paint dry.

For many years I did very little conscious inquiring, having other things on my mind ... but by age 16 I was certainly beginning to ponder upon spiritual issues. And I worked in the Friends Historical Collection (aka, Quaker Collection) of the local college library, as well as in Reference, and damn near every department of that library. I worked in other libraries, and at one point in my life I read voraciously.

As I learned about Buddhism, I became interested in meditation, and because I have had any number of paranormal, or unusual experiences, I also began researching the mysteries. I did not seek intrigue, I sought truth. And for an intelligent kid of 17 or 18, that often came down to whatever just made the most sense, best explained what I'd been through, and rang true with my own Intuition.

Now you know, I've probably studied the Bible more than some on these forums, though certainly less than others. I have been to various types of church services, in my adult life, from Catholic, to Eastern Orthodox, to Advent Christian, to Baptist, to non-denominational, to you-name-it. I have been to Wiccan/Pagan gatherings, including at least one ritual or ceremony of sorts, though I confess my poor recollection of the specific occasion.

I HAVE done what any number of well-meaning, good-natured, certainly caring friends, family, associates and colleagues of mine have suggested. I have opened my heart & mind to everyone from Jesus, to Buddha, to Allah, to a good number of Eastern Adepts, and besides that - perhaps to half the damn spooks on the astral plane. And I have done this while straight, sober, high, dosed on LSD, and literally out of my skull (I do not recommend the lattermost).

I have studied Eastern teachings, and Western, ancient teachings and modern. I majored in philosophy, and I know something of the Greeks, the Germans, the Egyptians, and the Sufis. I very nearly took the vows of Tibetan Buddhism, yet I am thoroughly intrigued and enchanted by Christian Eastern Orthodoxy.

I have meditated. Did I mention that I have meditated? And among all that soul-searching, and opening of the heart (& mind) - not all of which is inherently pleasant, pretty or even advisable - I have met with presences & influences both benevolent & malevolent, but mostly somewhere in between. The nature spirits are numerous, folks, and Jesus, to them - may equate to a thought in your head, and what we might think is evil ... is for them, simply a dance. And it's a pleasant dance, at that! But in the long run, it isn't the Jesus you're after.

But that Jesus, and Yes I do Presume ... is a far cry from the man we've painted him to be. And so is the Christ!

I know because I've walked with him every bit as side by side ... as the next guy! And I admire those who are strong enough to stand with Him!

But along with the rest of I Corinthians 13, I think it's time some folks paid attention to the following verses:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[/font]​

It's easy to glimpse one small fragment of a Truly Brilliant, BLINDING Diamond-Soul (there is but ONE) ... and because we are blinded, and because our limited experience provides only one, small, familiar set of tools (words, ideas, images) ... this experience naturally gets interpreted in these familar terms.

Then, well-meaning and well-intentioned, we may set out to explain to others (as I do now??? hmmm ... ) ... or to share with them, somehow ... the beauty, the Joy, the Majesty, and the WISDOM .... which we have experienced. Would it matter if I say, This isn't MY wisdom, this is God's? No, because I'm just a guy, like anybody else. Should I resort to saying things like, "it's Christ's Love?" Well, yes - and no. Again - ONE Diamond, many facets!

I'd happily nod in agreement with the one who still recognizes the Diamond, the Blinding Light, the Love that beams forth, literally in ALL directions ... and who knows - somewhere deep inside - that the HARDNESS of that diamond, is actually a symbol in itself for part of the Nature of that Diamond - which perhaps NO MAN has EVER yet sensed. It remains a mystery. But it is there.

Thus it does not matter if you call it Jesus, speak of Him as God, bow down to Him as Allah, give praise to Him as Adi-Buddha, or recognize Him in the outward visage of Ganesh. You have, in each case, but named the UN-nameable. Christians will naturally do this with references to Christ Jesus. Please don't become frustrated when others do it, in different words. Yes, what's in the Heart does count ... yet even so, we have many faculties of consciousness. Remember, Jesus also said this:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)
[/font]​

May that Flaming Sword of Manjushri (the Holy Spirit, aka Ganesh) cleave truth from illusion in your heart & mind, and in everyone's!
​

Namaste,

Andrew

 

[Quahom1]

Most interesting perspective Taj. It sounds like you ultimately came full circle.


v/r

Q

 

[taijasi]

Thank you, Q, and yes. I think the Prodigal is a universal archetype ... but it's also a lesson I'm still - struggling with.

Regards,

andrew

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Wow, taijasi. That was absolutely beautiful. Thank you.

 

[Dondi]

taijasi,

Thank you for your testamony. This is the type of thing I am talking about. You didn't really walk away from "God" or whoever you call Him. You just wanted to search for the truth, which I find commendable. I had done something similiar, but I must admit I hadn't gone to the extreme that you have (I am leary of the spiritual world. I'm convinced that there are evil spirits/angels as well as good spirits/angels, so I try to be very discerning). But the important thing is that you seemed to grasp the importance of God's love, which is able to help you love others.

I am curious. After having been brought up in a Christian atmosphere, you said that you walked away from it. Was it something specific that led you away or were you just being a rebellious teen that wanted his own thing (as in my case), or was it something else?

 

[Amica]

Peace.

Many Christians that I have met seem as if they never read the Bible. Their sole belief is that no matter what they do, no matter how they sin their sins are going to be forgiven if they only believe in Jesus pbuh as their savior. This may not make sense for a young teenager growing up int he world that we know today with all the violence, drug use/abuse, sexual relationships, etc. For if he is thought that all the effort that he needs to have in order to earn salvation is simply to believe Jesus to be divine and thank him every once in a while during the Sunday mass (IF he happens to go to Church) may lead the young to believe he is allowed to do anything he wants to do: use drugs, have sex and maybe get STDs, steal, kill perhaps, etc. He may sink into lawlessness despite the belief he may hold.

Converting to another religion from Chrisitanity, especially another monotheistic faith like Judaism or Islam, may be attractive because the other religions may have certain rituals, certain laws to abide by, certain principles to hold on to--a way to earn salvation with belief and deeds. The case for trinity may be very pale especially if looked at with vision towards Judaism (since rarely Chrisitans look at the monotheism of Islam), because Jews maintain One God belief, and no more. Islam maintains that if one has true faith in One God, this reflects through his good deeds: forbidding evil, approving good, praying, giving charity, respecting fellow man by helping humanity, not corrupting the world, defending oneself only in necessity if Islam is in danger, his family, he himslef, etc.

Also, some people are disgusted by the sexual abuses by the priests. Some find the concept of God being more clearer from the points of view of other religions. People leave their faiths for various reasons.

 

[Quahom1]

Peace.

Many Christians that I have met seem as if they never read the Bible. Their sole belief is that no matter what they do, no matter how they sin their sins are going to be forgiven if they only believe in Jesus pbuh as their savior. This may not make sense for a young teenager growing up int he world that we know today with all the violence, drug use/abuse, sexual relationships, etc. For if he is thought that all the effort that he needs to have in order to earn salvation is simply to believe Jesus to be divine and thank him every once in a while during the Sunday mass (IF he happens to go to Church) may lead the young to believe he is allowed to do anything he wants to do: use drugs, have sex and maybe get STDs, steal, kill perhaps, etc. He may sink into lawlessness despite the belief he may hold.

Converting to another religion from Chrisitanity, especially another monotheistic faith like Judaism or Islam, may be attractive because the other religions may have certain rituals, certain laws to abide by, certain principles to hold on to--a way to earn salvation with belief and deeds. The case for trinity may be very pale especially if looked at with vision towards Judaism (since rarely Chrisitans look at the monotheism of Islam), because Jews maintain One God belief, and no more. Islam maintains that if one has true faith in One God, this reflects through his good deeds: forbidding evil, approving good, praying, giving charity, respecting fellow man by helping humanity, not corrupting the world, defending oneself only in necessity if Islam is in danger, his family, he himslef, etc.

Also, some people are disgusted by the sexual abuses by the priests. Some find the concept of God being more clearer from the points of view of other religions. People leave their faiths for various reasons.

Yep, all one has to do is "truly" believe unto Jesus (that means accept Him, and trust Him). But guess what? Once that step is taken, miracles happen and happen fast...With Islam, all is logical, yes?

With Christianity, all is mystical and almost magical...

 

[Saltmeister]

Yep, all one has to do is "truly" believe unto Jesus (that means accept Him, and trust Him). But guess what? Once that step is taken, miracles happen and happen fast...With Islam, all is logical, yes?

With Christianity, all is mystical and almost magical...

Careful . . . we don't want to make it sound like it's something occultic (which magic usually is). Christians are not supposed to be magicians . . . We don't summon power and energy from any source, but simply pray to God and wait for him to answer our prayers. We don't have control over the Spirit. Magic is something you can control. Mysticism is something you can't control. The Spirit has a mind of its own and answers prayers in mysterious ways.

other religions may have certain rituals, certain laws to abide by, certain principles to hold on to--a way to earn salvation with belief and deeds.

The case for trinity may be very pale especially if looked at with vision towards Judaism (since rarely Chrisitans look at the monotheism of Islam), because Jews maintain One God belief, and no more. Islam maintains that if one has true faith in One God, this reflects through his good deeds: forbidding evil, approving good, praying, giving charity, respecting fellow man by helping humanity.

Well, as for the mystical part, I think in Christianity there's a reason why our faith isn't about a systematic approach to life. It's because we're not supposed to believe in something systematic. This may include rules, ceremonial rituals, tenets, principles, institutions and anything else that describes a structural framework that aligns us to the notion of purity.

You have died with Christ and are set free from the ruling (elementary) spirits of the universe. Why, then, do you live as though you belonged to this world? . . . Colossians 2:20

This verse was written in the context of the religions that existed in the Roman Empire, but could quite equally apply in today's world as well. The "ruling spirits" mentioned here most likely refered to supernatural beings, or angels. Ideally, it was God that provides us with meaning in life. However, there were also other supernatural beings, ie. angels, that wanted to challenge and act as rivals to God's authority. These angels brought forth alternative religions to give us an alternative purpose in life. They duplicated the true religion of God and attempted to align people to "philosophical truths" that could be considered just as "worthy" or "noble" as God's religion. These religions were counterfeit derivations of God's religion.

What these supernatural beings could not have duplicated was the "moral truth" of God's religion. In Christianity, this "moral truth" was Christ, and was a secret that God hid until the proper time came. As Colossians 2:2 says, Christ was this secret. It was hidden so that these supernatural beings could not use the same "moral truth," duplicate and counterfeit it. Instead, they had to use alternatives.

Having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by nailing them by the cross. Colossians 2:15

Where it says "disarming the powers and authorities," it does not mean physical, military or even political disarmament. It was moral disarmament. What put Jesus on the cross was ultimately not sin, but ideology, or should I say "sin defined by ideology." The religious leaders who had him crucified followed a systematic approach to life. Jesus and these leaders were opposed to each other because these leaders lived by ideology and valued something systematic and impersonal. Jesus lived by instinct and valued something more natural, sentimental and personal. Jesus was deemed a heretic and was therefore ordered for execution.

The alternatives offered by the supernatural beings trying to rival God were not equal to "the moral truth of salvation" so God ultimately had the moral high ground and His means of saving the world was justified. The moral authority of the religious leaders and their ideology was nullified because their systematic approach to life was unnatural and impersonal and didn't represent true righteousness. By killing someone sinless and righteous who was not systematically-minded in doing the right thing, they basically nullified their own moral authority. Because their ideology was systematic, it meant that the moral authority of all other religions that were systematic would likewise become nullified too. Hence, "setting us free from the ruling spirits" and "disarming the powers and authorities." This was the triumph and victory of Christ proclaimed in Christianity.

In a sense, Jesus himself wasn't "crucified" at all!!!! He escaped (in moral terms). The religious leaders made an empty accusation. Jesus was an innocent man. The execution had no moral justification. Ideology and its moral authority was nailed to the cross. Jesus was guilty of opposing ideology. He was condemned while he was alive, but when they "crucified" him, what they really crucified was the moral authority of ideology. Ideology died as a result of being "morally crucified" and was no longer a part of the "moral reality" of the universe. As Colossians 1:14 says, it was "nailed to the cross." In a sense, our liberation is a result of the fact that ideology deserved crucifixion because it condemned a sinless, righteous man. That was Christ's legacy.

This is basically the idea behind Christianity, that the notion of Christ dying and liberating the world from ideology can be justified (depends on your point of view) if you go deep into the mysticism and spirituality of the idea.

I think the whole point of Christ is not simply to forgive our sins, but liberation from things that are systematic in determining our self-worth, such as following a systematic approach to life. I think this is what most of us seem to have forgotten as Christians. Superficially, it's about forgiveness of sins, but if you go deeper, it's really about something else. It's about liberation from ideology. Perhaps that's the mystery (mystical part) that many of us miss. We have lost touch with the mystical side of it and have forgotten the real justification behind it all.

I suppose it's a two-edged sword: forgiveness of sins is for those of us who think of it in simple terms, and liberation from ideology is for those of us who have explored our spirituality more deeply. Although there's nothing wrong with simply following rules or simply being systematic, it robs us of salvation to believe in rules or believe in something systematic.

I think, then that if we want to get deep into why Christianity says Christ saves us, it's in Colossians. If you're the kind of person who goes deep into spiritual things, maybe that's the thing for you. If you get deep and still decide Christianity isn't for you, that's ok. You'd be making a deeply-informed choice then.

 

[Amica]

Hi!

Perhaps you gave yourselves an answer: a spiritual way of life is not enough for certain people. Just like some Muslims or Jews who are leaving their religions for Christianity: because they only feel the need for spiritual.

Everyone can choose what they want. The way I see it is: there is a spiritual and physical part of us. The soul strives for the spiritual aspect of faith, whereas the physical needs the religious guidelines/rules for purification. One, in my opinion, cannot be totally pure unless he/she works to make things better in both ways.

Our deeds, I believe, reflect what we believe. If a murderer believes in Allah Almighty (supposedly!--God knows best!) it does not mean he/she is saved because all life is sacred! If a person kills in order to save a life (self-defense of oneself, his family, faith community) he/she may be saved for he did not ask for someone to be killed, but was forced into the situation.

Jesus Christ/Isaa savs denounced many material things in order to earn better in Heavenly Kingdom. If his faith in heart was the only thing for salvation, he would have enjoyed anything he wanted to and could have had what may have been offered to him. Instead, he had chosen a path that led him to be hated by many and followed by people who believed what he believed, who were persecuted.

Many OT Prophets pbuh had done the same. Think of Moses pbuh. He grew up in a palace. Had everything a person wanted in material things in his time. Yet when he saw injustice and when he was called to the duty of Prophethood he stood his ground.