flood

[Quahom1]

i think the flood was in the bible, or are you saying that the flood was propaganda ?

I think there are issues, due to the lack of physical evidences to the same. Why, for example would God hide the physical evidence of a world wide flood from geologists? Why would not the face of the earth change with water passage as evidence of that change? Why, if the flood occured circa 2451 BC, is there structures that precede the flood, still intact?

I don't know Mee. I'm not saying no, and I'm not saying yes. In light of the sudden orthodox Christian announcements that the Bible may not be TOTALLY literal, and the lack of scientific evidence that should be there, a world wide flood may or may not have occured. It is bothering me as well, I assure you.

That I think a catastrophic flood occured, yes I think it did. Did it happen world wide I'm not sure. Perhaps the "world" as those of the OT saw it, was flooded.

Was the United States (for example) ever totally under water? Well no, not the whole of the country. But there was a time when the middle of the US was under water...only the strata data shows that to be an inland sea and much older than 5000 years ago (more like 500,000 years ago), according to sediment layers...

Again, there are questions.

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[Quahom1]

Sorry Quahom but I must take issue with what you present above as fact. Not sure where you got such a figure but it is super-massively overstated. In fact the annual mean global concentration of water vapour would yield no more than 25mm of water over the Earth's surface. And the annual mean preciptation is about 1 meter.

Floods are infrequent but common occurences the world over. No suprise there are flood myths to be found in most cultures.

respectfully

David

Well Tao, I can take your word for it, or I can take other scientist's word for it. I never said I had the answers. If you can present scientific data to back your claim, I'd be more than happy to read, and consider it.

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Q

edit: As a side note, where I live a river runs through it. When it rains more than 2 inches in 24 hours, we can expect a flood of the river within 12 hours after that. That means it goes from the river bed to within three feet of my front door, or 21 feet, or 7 feet past flood stage in as much time. And it happens within 12 hours (that is very fast for people scrambling to clear stuff to high ground). Also the current of the flooded river, is surprisingly fast near the house (as in running across my drive way). The middle of the river is at 14 knots, and the water over my driveway is at 4 knots.

It comes up in 12 hours, but takes two days to recede. And it is even worse when the ground is frozen or saturated with water...

edit #2: If I read the Biblical account correctly, all water trapped below, was also unleashed, so perhaps your "1 meter" was accompanied by the remaining vapor leaving the earth under pressure. If so, then you are correct, but then one scientist can't even agree with another on such issues...sort of like theologians...

 

[Tao_Equus]

Well Tao, I can take your word for it, or I can take other scientist's word for it. I never said I had the answers. If you can present scientific data to back your claim, I'd be more than happy to read, and consider it.

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Q

Ok, but I am not a scientist. You can find all you could want to know on atmospheric water wapour at the following link :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapor

Regards

David

 

[Quahom1]

Ok, but I am not a scientist. You can find all you could want to know on atmospheric water wapour at the following link :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapor

Regards

David

Tao, thank you. But it doesn't answer the question. As I recall, there was a time when the earth was tilted differently, and it was much warmer than even today (world wide). Apparently there were no deserts at one time, on this planet either (but there are now). IF the poles melted today, we would be in as much trouble as the time of the alleged flood.

So again I don't know. There are so many unanswered questions...

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[mee]

Jesus Christ spoke of it as a fact of history. (Matthew 24:37-39) and he always told the truth about things .

 

[Tao_Equus]

Tao, thank you. But it doesn't answer the question. As I recall, there was a time when the earth was tilted differently, and it was much warmer than even today (world wide). Apparently there were no deserts at one time, on this planet either (but there are now). IF the poles melted today, we would be in as much trouble as the time of the alleged flood.

So again I don't know. There are so many unanswered questions...

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Q

Its true that sea levels appear to have been highly variable over geologic time. However in the time windows implied in the biblical Flood stories sea levels have remained fairly stable. Even melting every last crystal of ice on earth we would only be looking at around a 400 meter global increase in sea level.
My own favourite theory is that the flood myths alluded to in the bible took place 12-14,000 years ago and were as a direct consequence of the melting of the northern hemispheres great ice sheets. This is the simplest explanation and there is plenty of evidence to support it.

My thoughts go something like this;

Noah was a real man, a farmer, with a real family, living on the shore of the Black Sea somewhere around present day Macedonia or turkey - circa 12,500bc. Not to far away from where he lived there was a great waterfall, where the medterainian sea poured 250 feet into the black sea. Noah however was not beguiled by the beauty of this site but worried about what would happen should the slip of rock dividing the two seas were to give way. Living in a region where earthquakes were common and having himself witnessed whole mountian-sides slipping away during such an event, he fretted over this for some years, fearing for his family should the worst happen. Eventualy, after been awoken in the night by an earth tremor, he had a eureka moment. If he built a boat then should this slip of land give way, he and his family could get on board and be quite safe from the effects of the flood. And so, to much laughter and ridicule from the local population, after all he was 2 or 3 miles from the sea, he set about building a great boat. The boat was not only protection from what he most feared but in the 3 years to come it served as an excellent barn and granary.
One morning as he was searching the chicken roosts for eggs a large earthquake struck. The ground beneath him shook so violently that he was thrown to the ground. Inside himself he knew this was the day that he dreaded, but a day he alone had prepared for. He gathered his children and his animals and got them aboard the boat. Sure enough some hours later they were able to stand on deck and watch the once distant sea come closer and closer. Within a few hours the boat was floating. Many many 1000's of people around the shore of the black sea were drowned that day, unable to outrun the inrush of the sea. But enough survived to spread the story of this man with vision, and the story is remembered to this day.

Hope no-one see's this as blasphemous but as a credible 'real' scenario for the Noah myth.

respectfully

David

 

[Quahom1]

Jesus Christ spoke of it as a fact of history. (Matthew 24:37-39) and he always told the truth about things .

Jesus didn't write anything but that which He drew in the sand...then He wiped it away. Matthew is not Jesus. Matthew is a man. And in any court of law, third party witnesses are considered heresay.

Jesus told the truth about things, but obviously man doesn't.

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Q

Mee, let it go. Your 100 year old faith, does not top any other faith, especially not my 1800 year old faith. And that just got turned on its head, in recent days. You don't know any more or less than I do.

Maybe we should start exploring from scratch...?

 

[Quahom1]

Tao,

Would you mind reading my edited post, then responding? I'd like to know your thoughts.

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[Tao_Equus]

Tao,

Would you mind reading my edited post, then responding? I'd like to know your thoughts.

v/r

Q

Ok I read it and in addition to what you state I can think of one ot two other factors that could effect sea level. but frankly there is no geological evidence for a global flood of such a magnitude. Without that its simply not credible.

respectfully

David

 

[Quahom1]

Ok I read it and in addition to what you state I can think of one ot two other factors that could effect sea level. but frankly there is no geological evidence for a global flood of such a magnitude. Without that its simply not credible.

respectfully

David

there is no geological evidence for a global flood, but there is for a realtively "local" flood of great magnitude...yes? I mean the world as the bible describes it...? yes?

 

[Tao_Equus]

there is no geological evidence for a global flood, but there is for a realtively "local" flood of great magnitude...yes? I mean the world as the bible describes it...? yes?

Yes, an event such as I described above did take place. In addition other evidence such as sunken cities all around the mediteranean also add to the fact that the people percieved sea level changes. Even tho they may have in fact been land level changes. Every region in the world almost will suffer catastrophic floods at some time tho.

David

 

[Quahom1]

[/i]



I looked at the guidlines for the Christianity board. I see that evangelism is encouraged. I checked out the linked page from Mee's post and I don't see anything in it that wouldn't legitimately fall under the category of evangelistic material.

Chris

No evangelism is not encouraged. Discussion and personal views are encouraged. We've dealt with the potential problem here, and agree it is not either (but it is close).

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[Tao_Equus]

As a logical aside;

If such huge volumes of water were to have been suspended in the atmosphere prior to the idea of a 'global flood' think on the effects.
Though water vapour is a potent greenhouse gas, at such concentrations the cloud would be so thick that no solar radiation would reach the Earths surface and a very very rapid cooling would occur. thus any precipitation would fall as ice. There would have infact have been a global ice storm.

Just a thought

David

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

No evangelism is not encouraged. Discussion and personal views are encouraged. We've dealt with the potential problem here, and agree it is not either (but it is close).

v/r

Q

I guess I was confused by this:

As a general guideline for preferred content on the Christianity board:

1. Genuine interest in discussing meaning of scripture
2. Shared observations on practices/rites
3. Comparative Christian Theology
4. General Christian Fellowship and support
5. Christian Evangelism
6. Issues of discussion with regards to Christianity's interraction with the secular world
7. Apologetic discussion

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

As a logical aside;

If such huge volumes of water were to have been suspended in the atmosphere prior to the idea of a 'global flood' think on the effects.
Though water vapour is a potent greenhouse gas, at such concentrations the cloud would be so thick that no solar radiation would reach the Earths surface and a very very rapid cooling would occur. thus any precipitation would fall as ice. There would have infact have been a global ice storm.

Just a thought

David

Who says ice didn't occur? Only that the deluge never stopped for 40 days...

 

[Quahom1]

I guess I was confused by this:



Chris

And we are dealing with it...Chris. You are correct.

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[Quahom1]

Well, Blaze had something to say but for Blaze's reasons it was pulled. I think it should have been posted (personally). But that is not my call.

There is however, as Blaze and I agree, divine intervention...and that is something science will never figure out.

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[BlaznFattyz]

i was just saying that personally i believe in the story of noahs ark because the bible says it happened, and genesis in particular is a holy spirit inspired book. the events preceding, during, and after are well documented for it to mean anything else, in my opinion, and jesus references noah, and this story of noah fits in the grand scheme of things and makes lots of sense for those that study and understand the bible. aside from my personal beliefs, i have 2 cents to throw in that you might want to think about.

1. the flood is an event of mother nature that can be scientifically explained, but if gods hand is involved in the flood, that is a supernatural events that cannot be explained. such as jesus' transfiguration, the earthquake and sky darkening at the cross. you cannot explain his resurrection with physics.

2. how the ark was sealed or how the animals were fed for so long, and not attack each other is not hard for me to believe. jesus did perform the miracle of turning water into wine, and feeding thousands with a few pieces of fish and bread loaves. why he coudnt feed all those animals or just make them not hungry. i dont doubt his power at the flood either.

3. evidence of the 40 day flood, maybe, but you have to also take into account that god receded the waters, therefore you dont have the same appearance of a world wide flood that would naturally occur. just a clean slate basically.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

i was just saying that personally i believe in the story of noahs ark because the bible says it happened, and genesis in particular is a holy spirit inspired book. the events preceding, during, and after are well documented for it to mean anything else, in my opinion, and jesus references noah, and this story of noah fits in the grand scheme of things and makes lots of sense for those that study and understand the bible. aside from my personal beliefs, i have 2 cents to throw in that you might want to think about.

1. the flood is an event of mother nature that can be scientifically explained, but if gods hand is involved in the flood, that is a supernatural events that cannot be explained. such as jesus' transfiguration, the earthquake and sky darkening at the cross. you cannot explain his resurrection with physics.

2. how the ark was sealed or how the animals were fed for so long, and not attack each other is not hard for me to believe. jesus did perform the miracle of turning water into wine, and feeding thousands with a few pieces of fish and bread loaves. why he coudnt feed all those animals or just make them not hungry. i dont doubt his power at the flood either.

3. evidence of the 40 day flood, maybe, but you have to also take into account that god receded the waters, therefore you dont have the same appearance of a world wide flood that would naturally occur. just a clean slate basically.

So, basically, God can do anything...why question. Is that about it?

Chris

 

[mee]

Mee, let it go. Your 100 year old faith, does not top any other faith, especially not my 1800 year old faith. And that just got turned on its head, in recent days. You don't know any more or less than I do.

Maybe we should start exploring from scratch...?

i think the flood debate has been going for a bit longer than 100 years, not quite sure why you think i know more about it , i just thought the link was interesting thats all , and as we are christians , who look to the bible , i thought it would be of interest