What is needed...

lunamoth

lunamoth

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...to foster, encourage, and permit Christians of different flavors to talk peacefully and productively with each other?

I'm beginning to wonder if it really is possible to have dialogue among Christians who sometimes seem almost like polar opposites in their approaches to Christ, the Bible, doctrine, worship. Is it time to try another approach, or give up?

What do you all think. What do you think is needed to bring Christianity back together? (Not as in all believing the same way, but as in keeping friendly and harmonious relationships.)
 
"Christian" - Christ-like.

What we need is love. We need to love each other. To remember that Christ died for each of us and loves each of us as if there were no other.

(...on this hang the law and the prophets)

Let's have genuine empathy and compassion for and consideration of each other.

P.S. And take to heart 1 Corinthians 13.
 
What is the true quest, the Eternal Goal of every single human soul?

How does, and how can, Christianity best help us all (Christian and non-Christian alike, if we can cease to see this distinction for a moment) to reach that goal?

This question goes deep, deeper with every day, we hope. We are asked to be creative, to be patient, and to be persistent - with ourselves, and with others. What is needed is a willingness and a preparedness to invoke Christ (His Love, and His guidance), not simply for ourselves, but just as strongly, and as often, for the sake of everyone. Perhaps for a start, at least among "fellow Christians" ... and ideally, all others!

Some do this already. :) The "Lord's Prayer," or 'Our Father,' begins with exactly these words - Our Father. It does not start with, "My God." There's a reason for that. ;)

Another question we might ask is - what does Christ see in each of us, that he can love us all, so fully, so completely, so consistently, and so unconditionally? :)

taijasi
 
lunamoth said:
...to foster, encourage, and permit Christians of different flavors to talk peacefully and productively with each other?
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Mutual respect. Due unto others. Simple. Short. Succinct. :cool:
 
AletheiaRivers said:
Mutual respect. Due unto others. Simple. Short. Succinct. :cool:
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This is very good Allie. One thing that seems to be a problem though is when someone feels disrespected by the very way another looks at the Bible, or doctrine. Should we just agree to not discuss the Bible and doctrine, or understand that if we do discuss these topics you may hear a point of view you will disagree with? I must admit to being kind of flummoxed by this. 'course, I realize it is quite possible to address subjects in a more diplomatic, more respectful manner. Difficult subjects can be addressed, but it takes a bit of tolerance as well as respect from each side. Not that I've mastered any of this. Actually trying to figure out how I can do things better.

lunamoth
 
It is that perception thing...If I percieve that you are tearing at the foundation of my belief system...or if I believe the foundation of my belief system can be affected by others beliefs.... hmmmm.... could be that be it?

The problem isn't the discussion, the topic or the belief system, tis the faith.

I mean we know there are others out there with differing thought than ours...uh..duh...most of the world.

But we want a place where we can discuss things homogenized... And if I think the bible is completely literal, and you think the bible is open for interpretation...my insistence at a literal view leaves no room for your interpretation....and your interpretation leaves no room for my literallness.

So if my literalness affects your belief or if your interpretation affects my belief...the problem is me and my faith...and my perception that your belief somehow affects mine...

yes no maybe so?
 
I'm all for love. I'm all for discussion. But I do believe there should be certain guidelines when discussing issues in a particular board. My only concern is that we ought to agree that there are certain aspects of the Christian faith that ought not be tampered with that threatens to deviate away from the core tenets of the faith that are common to all major Christian denominations. The question is what consitutes that main core.

Maybe it would be instructive to define these cores. I'm open to discussion on what others believe what they are. But let me start with what I as a Christian think are the essential elements of the Christian faith (you may agree or disagree):

1) That Christianity emerged from the faith that is found in the OT.
2) That there was a man by the name of Jesus who actaully lived in 1st century Israel.
3) That this man was believed to be "the Christ" or the Messiah by His followers.
4) That Jesus was Divine in essence.
5) That there is an bounded relationship between the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.
6) That Jesus taught His followers the ways of the Kingdom of God and expounded on the OT prophets to support those teachings.
7) That He went around and performed miracles and healing for the people.
8) That He was crucified, was buried, and rose again in a physical body.
9) That through His death, we might have life.
10) That He is at the right hand of the Father.

There probably is more, but these are the ones I see as important to varying degrees.

I believe that there can be a point where what is discussed ceases to be Christianity and that when we veer from the core, the discussion ought to be taken elsewhere.

What do you think?
 
lunamoth said:
...to foster, encourage, and permit Christians of different flavors to talk peacefully and productively with each other?

I'm beginning to wonder if it really is possible to have dialogue among Christians who sometimes seem almost like polar opposites in their approaches to Christ, the Bible, doctrine, worship. Is it time to try another approach, or give up?

What do you all think. What do you think is needed to bring Christianity back together? (Not as in all believing the same way, but as in keeping friendly and harmonious relationships.)
Click to expand...
I don't know if you want my input on this or not Luna. Look, it's not that dissimilar from the problem of racism. What is the solution to racism? Is it to insist on never acknowleging that it exists so that we can have polite conversations until it really doesn't exist? See, I think that political correctness, even though well meant, has the effect of driving hatred and bigotry underground where they can breed undetered. It's much, much better to drive racism, bigotry, and religious intolerance out into the sunlight and force those who want to get away with secretly harboring that stuff to come clean. Don't let them get away with pretending tolerance when the cameras are rolling, but supporting intolerance in the shadows.

That's what's going on with religion. We all want to be warm and fuzzy and tolerant, but what we need to do is call a spade a spade. Call people out and force them to defend their intolerant views or be marginalized permanently. That's why I jumped on the anti-catholic thing on the other thread. Notice how the fundies are entirely silent? Faux tolerance will get us nowhere.

Chris
 
Dondi said:
I'm all for love. I'm all for discussion. But I do believe there should be certain guidelines when discussing issues in a particular board. My only concern is that we ought to agree that there are certain aspects of the Christian faith that ought not be tampered with that threatens to deviate away from the core tenets of the faith that are common to all major Christian denominations. The question is what consitutes that main core.
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Hi Dondi, I know where you are coming from, I think, but the problem is in then deciding on all those points you raised. That's why I like the Christianity board COC : "The Christianity board has a remit to discuss mainstream Christian beliefs across denominations, where the founding doctrine is that Jesus Christ offers sole salvation to humanity though His Death on the cross." It's simple, I think it does capture that core while also allowing that this means somewhat different things to different people.

If we try to define it any more then there will be be division. I heard a great quote today and I think it fits here:

Wisdom is knowledge that unifies, not divides.

It's a challenge, and it's more than for just here at CR.

luna
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
I don't know if you want my input on this or not Luna. Look, it's not that dissimilar from the problem of racism. What is the solution to racism? Is it to insist on never acknowleging that it exists so that we can have polite conversations until it really doesn't exist? See, I think that political correctness, even though well meant, has the effect of driving hatred and bigotry underground where they can breed undetererred. It's much, much better to drive racism, bigotry, and religious intolerance out into the sunlight and force those who want to get away with secretly harboring that stuff to come clean. Don't let them get away with pretending tolerance when the cameras are rolling, but supporting intolerance in the shadows.

That's what's going on with religion. We all want to be warm and fuzzy and tolerant, but what we need to do is call a spade a spade. Call people out and force them to defend their intolerant views or be marginalized permanently. That's why I jumped on the anti-catholic thing on the other thread. Notice how the fundies are entirely silent? Faux tolerance will get us nowhere.

Chris
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Hi Chris, Yes, your input is welcome. :) I agree with you that conversation is better than ignoring it. That's why I like participating here on a religion forum rather than say on a gardening or book club forum. This feels like connecting to people in an important way. I like it when people here sahre things about themselves and the path that's brought them to where they are becuase you then learn that these people who believe so differently from you are interesting, kind, human beings, or at least a lot of them are. It's easier to hate an ideology than it is to hate a person.

There's honesty in dialogue, but there is also respect and diplomacy. I'm not sure how calling a spade a spade and brutal honesty fit in. And, I thought you might be the one to bring up having a sense of humor. I think this is very important, being able to lighten up a bit. Humor can be tricky online, and while I might avoid an iffy joke, at least I can try to take myself less seriously and laugh a bit.

Thanks,
luna
 
lunamoth said:
There's honesty in dialogue, but there is also respect and diplomacy. I'm not sure how calling a spade a spade and brutal honesty fit in. And, I thought you might be the one to bring up having a sense of humor. I think this is very important, being able to lighten up a bit. Humor can be tricky online, and while I might avoid an iffy joke, at least I can try to take myself less seriously and laugh a bit.

Thanks,
luna
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I dunno Luna. Look what happened to our country because people just wanted to get along and not look unpatriotic. I guess I'm just a little too raw from that. My bad. I just like things real.

Chris
 
Personally I think there's always going to be friction between different denominational positions (and non-denominational, too).

I've no problem if people feel they have to disagree, and sometimes passionately so.

To me, the most important thing is simply that the different viewpoints can be expressed, without breaking into outright hostility.

That's with regards to CR...
 
I said:
I've no problem if people feel they have to disagree, and sometimes passionately so.
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Exactly. What I see causing problems is that people are quick to take offense at an opinion, and then instead of discussing the opinion, motives for posting are impuned, and veiled (and not so veiled) personal attacks are made.

Leave peoples motives out of it. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Discuss issues, not people.
 
I have to agree with Wil.It is a perception.

When people start tearing away the foundation some are gonna get upset or as Chris put it call a spade a spade.
 
Are the foundations so weak they cant withstand a point of view?


David
 
No the foundation is a Rock.

But as Chris said call a spade a spade...if the view is decidedly nonchristian why should I be PC and not come out and say it is BS.
 
Dondi said:
...But let me start with what I as a Christian think are the essential elements of the Christian faith (you may agree or disagree):

1) That Christianity emerged from the faith that is found in the OT.
2) That there was a man by the name of Jesus who actaully lived in 1st century Israel.
3) That this man was believed to be "the Christ" or the Messiah by His followers.
4) That Jesus was Divine in essence.
5) That there is an bounded relationship between the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.
6) That Jesus taught His followers the ways of the Kingdom of God and expounded on the OT prophets to support those teachings.
7) That He went around and performed miracles and healing for the people.
8) That He was crucified, was buried, and rose again in a physical body.
9) That through His death, we might have life.
10) That He is at the right hand of the Father.

What do you think?
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1. yes
2. depends on the definition of man and whether we have the correct calendar and or timeframe
3. believed...interesting terminology
4. in essence...ditto
5. yes
6. yes
7. yes
8. I think it possible to be true, and possible that it not...but niether diminishes my faith in the teachings...if anything, if metaphor makes it stronger.
9. I think through his life, he gave us power over death
10. I and the father are one...

This is the crux, I have no issues with anyone that believes 100% any of Dor's essential elements. But I believe what is written that were his words and deeds are all I need. In his teachings I don't need the death and resurection stories....except that those stories are what instigated Paul, which created the church which canonized the bible which got us to read all the stories of Jesus's life.

I can except that I am in the minority...I can accept others beliefs as they stand.... and if it were proven that Jesus never existed...that Josephus et al or whoever made it all up...the story is good enough for me. I've got the essence of Christ, I work to see the essence of Christ in all, I search to find that glimmer of light, and do my best to allow it to be expressed...and I don't care if they call it Krishna or Buddha or Tao or.... I'd like to assist that entity in front of me who is an expression of G-d to express fully...

Don't you think that is 'christian'? One wishes to condemn me or toss me out of a christian forum because I find salvation in the story?
 
wil said:
But I believe what is written that were his words and deeds are all I need. In his teachings I don't need the death and resurection stories.
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Thats right Wil, you are allowed to pick and choose what you want to take and what you want to trash....it is called living in a PC world.

All I will say is start with Romans 5 especially verse 8 and 9 but whole chapter is good.
 
I am more often referred to as politically incorrect.

Most seem to pick and choose (or come up with justifications for what they don't call picking and choosing)...Some throw away Jesus's, Ye are G-ds and Everything I have done you can do and more.

Tisn't it a lovely thing...free will.
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Dondi, I know where you are coming from, I think, but the problem is in then deciding on all those points you raised. That's why I like the Christianity board COC : "The Christianity board has a remit to discuss mainstream Christian beliefs across denominations, where the founding doctrine is that Jesus Christ offers sole salvation to humanity though His Death on the cross." It's simple, I think it does capture that core while also allowing that this means somewhat different things to different people.

If we try to define it any more then there will be be division. I heard a great quote today and I think it fits here:

Wisdom is knowledge that unifies, not divides.

It's a challenge, and it's more than for just here at CR.

luna
Click to expand...

OK, maybe we can go with that. Except...The only thing I would add to this is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the focal tenet of Paul in I Cor 15:14-17:

"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."

Don't you think this is pretty central?

And I'm debating whether the Deity of Christ should be included, but then this is not evident in some denominations.
 
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