God's judgement?

[Thomas]

I meant to post this a while ago ...

It is evident, from the dawn of time until today, that no man, no matter how illumined, ever escapes the times in which he finds himself, but rather seeks to express his belief according to the times...

Only one voice speaks in eternity.

The story of the Old Testament is a story of the development of a salvation history. The Book of Numbers, for example, is properly entitled 'In the Desert' in the Jewish texts and is on of the Pentateuch, the five Books of the Law as given to Moses.

"For Jews, the Torah was traditionally accepted as the literal word of God as told to Moses. For many, it is neither exactly history, nor theology, nor legal and ritual guide, but something beyond all three. It is the primary guide to the relationship between God and man, and the whole meaning and purpose of that relationship, a living document that unfolds over the generations and millennia."

The key to understanding of the texts is in the term 'unfolding'.

This has a two-fold meaning. In Jewish and Christian traditions, the belief is that Revelation can be likened to a well that never runs dry, that is, the more one studes, the more one plumbs the meaning of the text, the Word whose depth is infinite.

The second is the unfolding in time, or in succession (the other is in the immediacy or simultaneity of the Eternal Word), of the data of Divine Revelation, and this is manifest in and as Salvation History.

The story of man's salvation is one of resistance and the call to co-operation, which culminates in the ultimate act of co-operation, that of God become man 'that man might become God' (Irenaeus).

The point of this is that Scripture should be interpreted not only as the Revealed Word of God, but the development of its understanding and right reception.

As a 'chosen people', the lived history of the Jews is inextricably linked with the historical actuality, and not all of it makes pleasant reading. As I said, it is a story of resistance and co-operation.

So how do these tales of war talk of the relationship of God and man? We can view them in two ways.

The first is the ways of men - the way of resistance. The conduct of the Jews, in war and peace, is not essentially different from the conduct of their neighbours, and by every modern standard is distasteful. Has God abandoned the world today? No. Is the world of today better then, than yesterday? No.

Consider the fact that more people are enslaved to the wants of the 'first world' today than were ever held in slavery before - a first world, by the way, which considers itself 'Christian' ...

Consider the fact of poison gas, of atomic, biological and chemical weapons, of Chernobyl and Bohpal...

Consider aerial bombardment and the gas chambers, purges and persecutions - more Christians have died as witness to the faith in the last 100 or so years than in all recorded history combined ...

Consider the revolution and purges of Soviet Russia, of China, the dead heaped at the feet of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot ...

... all this leaves history gasping at the scale of its devastation.

Remember that, and we start to put the horrors of yesterday in perspective.

The second is in the way of God - the way of co-operation.

When we tasted of the fruit of the Tree of Duality, we came to know separation from God, a privation of beatitude, and its extreme form ... death, and man has learnt to visit this bitter harvest upon his neighbour time and again, and his imagination and his inventiveness knows no bounds ...

If there is any virtue in such knowledge it lies in the understanding that this is not what God wills, but rather what man wills, and too often in His name.

Is the Bible wrong then? No. Is it right?

Yes, when read the right way.

When read by the light of Tradition in the Holy Spirit we can discern another layer of meaning to the text, this does not alter the literal, but illuminates it; we see it in a truer light, and sometimes that insight obliges us to say that even though we were wrong, we were not abandoned; that our hard-heartedness reaps nothing but tragedy, and raises the cry 'why hast thou forsaken me?' when in that very moment He seeks to snatch us into His embrace.

Are such acts justified then?

Here Islam can teach us a lesson.

The army of Islam returned victorious from battle, and the prophet said, "You have returned from a smaller jihad (battle), and now it is incumbent upon you to perform your greater jihad." When asked what could be a greater jihad the Prophet said: "The battle with ones' nafs (ego)."

In time man will come to understand that peace, as a Spiritual State, is not the absence or war, of turmoil, of unrest. Peace is another place altogether, not so much a Presence within oneself, as oneself within the Presence. It is a long road, and a long way still to go, but we are not alone:

Jesus said: "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." John 14:27

Without that Spiritual Peace, then man will ever cry 'Space, give me space to live and breathe!' which in our time became the dreadful 'lebensraum' of National Socialism.

We will never make room for God in our hearts by clearing our neighbour from his lands...

But on the other hand, consider more the devout man, in this case the Canticle of Simeon, who when presented with the infant Jesus said:

"Now Thou dost dismiss Thy servant, O Lord, according to Thy word in peace.
Because my eyes have seen Thy salvation
Which thou has prepared before the face of all peoples:
A light to the revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of Thy people Israel."
Luke 2:29–32
Commonly called the 'Nunc Dimittis' from the opening of the Latin text:
"Nunc dimittis servum tuum, Domine"

In fact the songs (canticles) of Zachary and Mary form, with Simeon, a trilogy.

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk001.htm#68

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk001.htm#46

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk002.htm#29

That is repeated every day in the monastic Office of the Hours.

Thomas

 

[AletheiaRivers]

I told you I have reservations and hesitations about becoming Catholic. My insistence on free thinking is one of them.

Then stay away from the other denominations! Have you seen the range of thought in Catholic theology?

Oh yeah, I know. It's what drew me to Catholicism in the first place.

Thanks for your thoughts Thomas. They are greatly appreciated, as always. I'll leave my response at that so as not to derail the thread further.

 

[mee]

Jehovah will soon use his powerful Son to wipe wickedness off the earth. (2 Timothy 3:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8; Revelation 19:11-16)
Jehovah, who has the right to appoint judges, chose Jesus as a Judge meeting His standards.
The Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son." (John 5:22)
Jesus role goes beyond normal kind of judging, for he is judge of the living and of the dead. (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:1) Paul once said "[God] has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man [Jesus] whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him."—Acts 17:31; Psalm 72:2-7.
the judgeing will take place after "the tribulation" mentioned at Matthew 24:29, 30 breaks out and the Son of man (Jesus)‘arrives in his glory.’ (Compare Mark 13:24-26.) Then, with the entire wicked system at its end, Jesus will hold court and render and execute judgment.—John 5:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

 

[taijasi]

Kindest regards, Tai!

I am pleased to see a thread wherein we share some agreement.

Awesome!

In some way, (an esoteric way, perhaps?) I can agree with you in your application. But there is an alternative interpretation, quite plain on its face, that is being grossly overlooked. This is why I suggested the quote from Herbert’s “Dune.” The wolf was also a very real adversary, not just a struggle inside the mind. Baron Harkonnen was a very real opponent to Paul Atreides. I bring this up to make my point, the plain interpretation of these epic struggles is not of men against other men. It is quite literally the clash of the Titans, the epic struggle of good against evil. Christ, in spirit or fact, was not present in the progeny of Lucifer, that is the point. And even Paul was aware of this.

Yes, I do agree; Lucifer is as real as Christ. There are wolves ... and in fact, one of the greatest strengths of the dark ones is that people do not believe they exist!

Now, the problem remains of whether or not the struggles of the historical texts of the Old Testament are factual in any extent, that much I can grant, although I do lean towards them being, for the most part, accurate. Even if these stories can be shown definitively to be mythos, we know from example that mythos does not necessarily equate with falsehood. To wit; Troy. Further, mythos serves the purpose of conveying a lesson. The lesson clearly conveyed is the battle of good over evil, that good is intended to dominate. All is lost, all effort futile, if evil prevails.

Agreed.

IF we were speaking of mere men doing battle against mere men, there is validity to what you have to say. But we are not speaking of the Axis powers versus the Allied powers, nor are we speaking of Rome doing battle with Carthage. We are speaking of G-d doing battle with Shitan, of the heavenly host doing battle with the fallen angels. True, ours is not to judge other men. But we are also called to heed G-d, and do what He commands of us. How can we judge Satan, when he is already condemned? To second-guess G-d, is to inadvertently side with our own enemy, and as the stories unfold in the later chapters it is made apparent that this does in fact occur to Israel’s detriment.

I would only say, that ours is not (by and large) to tackle the problem of evil directly. Only a full-fledged Master, one such as Christ Jesus, would be capable of that. And I am reminded recently, even in my Esoteric readings, that the Battle of which you speak (Armageddon, spiritually regarded) - is one in which not mankind, but the Archangel Michael Himself is destined to defeat the Fallen Lucifer.

I believe that our battle is the same archetypally, but occurs within each human heart. Christ within must confront the personal vices, weaknesses, and so-called "sin nature" - that which takes the path of least resistance, and tends toward inertia (tamas, the Sanskrit guna, as Thomas knows). Ultimately, it is Sattva, Law, which must emerge triumphant - the God within. But this is no duality; it is a Trinity, and I am quite in agreement with Thomas in the parallel with the gunas. Rajas, the balance of ordered, rhythmic living (which is my own personal challenge at present) ... bridges between inertia and perfect LAW. And this has everything to do with Christ!

I agree this has nothing to do with vengeance and wrath, that is the inordinate focus placed here by others who do not see or understand. Again, it is the battle between good and evil, of powers and principalities beyond our vision and understanding.

And always, if I might venture something by way of conjecture, the question is asked - Does this form still tend toward Divine Purpose, or has inertia come to rule the day? Does the potential yet exist for progress, or has the burden/balance of inertia become to heavy to offset? Does Redemption still present itself, or is destruction (of the form) warranted? And these questions are asked cycle after cycle, for nations as well as individuals, and many, many times within a given lifetime. That is what I mean when I say I don't believe it's a "one-time, all-or-nuthin' prospect." [Nevertheless, I do believe in "Final Judgment," but not for MANY millions of years hence ... not in this world cycle, save on a far lesser scale.]

While I am not sure I understand or follow, surely then you must admit that destroying those that have harmful intent toward your creation is fitting in this light?

Yes, as per above. Where we would see only darkness, ill-intent, or evil, God can see "God-potential" (or, to be less controversial, potential for GOOD). The converse, which gets back to the OP and Dondi's question, is that where we see innocence and purity, God is more fully aware of the "Balance with the Law." It's back to "Why was this man born blind ... ?"

Again, I can agree if we are speaking of mere humans towards mere humans. The scale is tipped radically when we are speaking of heavenly forces doing battle over Creation. This too leads into our choices, which side do we choose to side with? Good, or Evil? Do we side with the Heavenly Father who created us, or do we side with the interloper who has designs on usurping Creation? To blur the lines and make the choice more difficult raises interesting questions of its own. For who would attempt such a thing, to cast the Creator as a tyrant? Shall we give Satan and his equal due? Shall we befriend our destroyer, our adversary, because of a heart that does not understand? Shall we let our emotions override our common sense?

To side with Our Father in Heaven is to side with Christ. To side with Christ, is also to side with, advocate for, and live in utterly selfless Service for the sake of others. If we would serve God, we must learn to love and serve Humanity. As yet I may lack the perfection by which I might demonstrate this, or even a decent set of Virtues (!). What I do NOT lack ... is the awareness of this Truth. It seems it's still "seeping in."

And yes, I agree, that even the Perfect LOVE of Christ does not mean that He would stand on the battlefield and fail to raise the Shield against His foe. Lucifer repeats, and represents, on a far higher turn of the spiral, the same willful lower/lesser nature against and with which we ourselves struggle individually. Even Humanity itself has a parallel, and Lucifer may epitomize and represent that which distances our (collective) self from God, yet to scapegoat even the former Lightbearer, imo, is to fail to see the parallel accurately.

Part of my point, besides suggesting that God manifests Himself through many, many aspects (not just a Trinity, but a Septenate, then a multitude of variations thereupon) ... part of my point, is that I don't think God is acting without a PLAN - that He is now, or is ever just "winging it." So battles and confrontations, on whatever scale ... even involving Lucifer ... are part of the Divine Design. And by this I do not mean Predestination, or really anything close.

Agreed, towards other humans. Shall we love the Devil? Shall we forgive Shitan? Shall we have compassion for Evil? Shall we tolerate the Fallen Ones? Shall we invite them into our lives, wholesale and without concession, to co-rule with G-d and His? All persons should rightly be treated with the dignity and respect accorded all humans. When it comes to spirit, and the battle of good and evil, there is a line. I have chosen which side I wish to stand on. I can forgive a moment of evil, perhaps even a gross moment of evil, from another human, as you are correct, we all make mistakes.

But to forgive evil (spirit) personified, is not only impossible, it will invite disaster into one’s life.

THAT is the lesson of the epic battles of the Old Testament. Any other lesson learned is in addition, and certainly the Bible is rich enough to hold multiple meanings. But first and foremost is overcome against the wicked one.

Shalom.

I think I understand, and for the most part I agree. But if pressed, then the question is a bit more than philosophical. What would you do - LOVE all those who might err, up unto the point of one such as Lucifer (formerly a being of Greatest Luminosity and GOOD) ... and then, applying judgment (spiritual discernment in this case) - would you hate? I present that as the only real alternative. There is no middle ground.

What I believe is that our love must not stop with evil itself - in whatever form it may be found. This business I sometimes hear about "hate the sin, love the sinner," imho it is not quite clear enough. What should be said is, spurn and avoid the evils ways ... yet Love all, unconditionally, to the best of one's ability (to the fullest degree to which one choose, accepts, and expresses the Christ within). Only Love conquers hate, darkness can never defeat darkness, hate will never defeat hate. Satan cannot cast out satan.

But then, what am I talking about??? Most of us, last time I checked, have a hard enough time just loving our neighbor (!), loving our own fam damily! Let alone loving everyone we meet! I think we should focus on that, and so, by the time we find ourself toe to toe with Lucifer or his agents, we will be able to call upon the Love that has grown strong with us ... and this Love will form the very Shield, the Protection, against which none (with evil intent) can penetrate.

Love and Light,

taijasi

 

[taijasi]

To help us understand Biblical history - the Old Testament history of the Jewish people - it might be useful to consider World War II, just 60 years in our past, wherein the question of judgment applies on a much larger scale. Specifically, the use of atomic energy in its destructive aspect, occurring in August of 1945 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan. Unquestionably and without hesitation, we can say that the loss of human life - women and children included - was unfortunate and tragic. What we cannot say, speaking for both the United States and for any & all of the Allied Forces as a Power, is that this was unnecessary to win the war.

If I were Japanese, and especially if I knew someone directly affected by these tragedies 60 years ago, I can well understand how difficult it might be to accept that the release of atomic energy was an act for GOOD. My own belief, however, which gets back to the OP and the points under discussion, is that while the atomic bomb was indeed destructive (and thus, the lowest expression of atomic energy), the GOOD that was brought about far outweighs the impact, in terms of the many lives that were lost - and the other suffering entailed. The success of the Axis powers in WWII would have meant enslavement for Humanity, and the triumph of the powers of darkness in the material world, for untold aeons to come.

So in considering the question of the death of individuals, or even large numbers - such as entire cities, or segments of a race of people - there might even be two lessons learned from WWII. On the one hand, the Jewish Holocaust, and on the other, the release of atomic energy over Japan. Both involved widespread or large-scale death and destruction, only one can be said to be an act FOR GOOD. I even hesitate to call the use of the atom-bomb an act "of good," because I believe that conveys a slightly different meaning. But an act FOR GOOD, it most certainly was - and though men like J. Robert Oppenheimer were forced to bear a tremendous burden of troubled conscience, my belief is that he was literally an instrument and a (scientific) agent of God's will. Hitler and the German scientists who were also racing to discover the secrets of atomic energy and use them for the enslavement of Humanity ... they were the reverse.

Divine Purpose sees the form, ultimately, as a means to an end - not as an end unto itself. Murder then, on any scale, is a crime not because it ends life, for this can never occur (save biologically), but because it denies experience and the resultant spiritual progress which would inevitably have occurred, had the form been allowed to exist.

I do not think God's Plan allows for infinite waste, or for infinite error & commitment of transgression. It does, however, allow for the display of Infinite Love, Infinite Mercy and Infinite potential for Redemption. And for that reason, the sins & transgressions of others, no matter how these might affect me or those I love ... are not ultimately of my concern, far less up to me to judge, or to lose sleep over. One of my most favorite mantrams, or prayers, is simply, `All is well. All is well. All is well.'

Peace,

taijasi

 

[mee]

Judgment​

Day—What Is It?​

HOW do you picture Judgment Day? Many think that one by one, billions of souls will be brought before the throne of God. There, judgment will be passed upon each individual. Some will be rewarded with heavenly bliss, and others will be condemned to eternal torment. However, the Bible paints quite a different picture of this period of time. God’s Word portrays it, not as a terrifying time, but as a time of hope and restoration.​

At Revelation 20:11, 12, we read the apostle John’s description of Judgment Day: "I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds." Who is the Judge described here?
Jehovah God is the ultimate Judge of mankind. However, he delegates the actual work of judging. According to Acts 17:31, the apostle Paul said that God "has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed." This appointed Judge is the resurrected Jesus Christ. (John 5:22) When, though, does Judgment Day begin? How long does it last?
The book of Revelation shows that Judgment Day begins after the war of Armageddon, when Satan’s system on earth will be destroyed. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:19–20:3) After Armageddon, Satan and his demons will be imprisoned in an abyss for a thousand years. During that time, the 144,000 heavenly joint heirs will be judges and will rule "as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 14:1-3; 20:1-4; Romans 8:17) Judgment Day is not some hurried event lasting a mere 24 hours. It lasts a thousand years.
During that thousand-year period, Jesus Christ will "judge the living and the dead." (2 Timothy 4:1) "The living" will be the "great crowd" that survives Armageddon. (Revelation 7:9-17) The apostle John also saw "the dead . . . standing before the throne" of judgment. As Jesus promised, "those in the memorial tombs will hear [Christ’s] voice and come out" by means of a resurrection. (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15) But on what basis will all be judged?
According to the apostle John’s vision, "scrolls were opened," and "the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds." Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: "He who has died has been acquitted from his sin." (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.
Judgment Day will give billions of people their first opportunity to learn about God’s will and to conform to it. This means that a large-scale educational work will take place. Indeed, "righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn." (Isaiah 26:9) However, not all will be willing to conform to God’s will. Isaiah 26:10 says: "Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah." These wicked ones will be put to death permanently during Judgment Day.—Isaiah 65:20.
By the end of Judgment Day, surviving humans will have "come to life" fully as perfect humans. (Revelation 20:5) Judgment Day will thus see the restoration of mankind to its original perfect state. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) Then a final test will take place. Satan will be released from his imprisonment and allowed to try to mislead mankind one last time. (Revelation 20:3, 7-10) Those who resist him will enjoy the complete fulfillment of the Bible’s promise: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:29) Yes, Judgment Day will be a blessing to all faithful mankind!

 

[Dondi]

Thomas, taij, jauntoo3,

Wow. I didn't expect this thread to have expanded onto such rich ideas and discourse. You all have opened my eyes, not only in regard to the OP, but also to some profound thoughts that had no inkling about, particularly in regard to the Trinity. I, in fact, have many questions and comments that I hope will stimulate discussion on the Trinity, but I believe that it deserves its own thread.

On the topic of God's judgement, I am grateful for your responses. It has helped shed light on the purpose of what God was trying to accomplish during the time of the patriarchs. Now if I can only convince my athiest friend.....