Turn the Other Cheek

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This seems pretty clear to me. Maybe someone can explain to me how making war against an enemy fits into this scenario. How is God gonna lead his people to war and still have them love their enemies?

Chris
 
This seems pretty clear to me. Maybe someone can explain to me how making war against an enemy fits into this scenario. How is God gonna lead his people to war and still have them love their enemies?

Chris

Well, I can love my neighbor, but if he should attempt to harm me or my family I will defend against that. Doesn't mean that I hate my neighbor, just that I won't allow myself to be subjugated by him either.

When General's Lee and Grant met near the end of the war, Lee said to Grant "I must send in exchange several of your Union troops, because we have no means to care for them, let alone my own men."

Grant replied, "Sir, do you think 25,000 rations and medical supplies will take care of things for you and your men?"

When Grant began to post along the river's edge with his mount, the corporal of the picket troops called out "Men, attention! General is present!", General Grant shouted out "NEVER MIND THAT".

But across the river, the Confederate Corporal of their picket troops heard the call and shouted, "Picket troops, call to present arms for General Grant!"
They did, and saluted the General. Grant saluted them back...

Today, President George Bush walked a red carpet and inspected the troops of Vietnam...while the band played the Star Spangled Banner. Vietnam has quietly become a very important trading partner with the US.

v/r

Joshua
 
There are similar stories about Richard and Saladin. I don't think war is fought with this kind of chivalry anymore. Bush used the opportunity to point out that we lost the war with Vietnam for lack of resolve, and compared that to the situation currently in Iraq. But Vietnam was an immoral war, as is Iraq. Public opinion turned against the war in Vietnam for the same reasons it has turned against this misadvised venture in Iraq. The administration of LBJ sought to demonize the peace movement just like this administration has. And "Christians" went along with it: then and now.

Chris
 
There are similar stories about Richard and Saladin. I don't think war is fought with this kind of chivalry anymore. Bush used the opportunity to point out that we lost the war with Vietnam for lack of resolve, and compared that to the situation currently in Iraq. But Vietnam was an immoral war, as is Iraq. Public opinion turned against the war in Vietnam for the same reasons it has turned against this misadvised venture in Iraq. The administration of LBJ sought to demonize the peace movement just like this administration has. And "Christians" went along with it: then and now.

Chris

Not to those who fought it or those who believed it neccesarry...

The country is still split.
 
why not? God has called His people to war throughout the bible.. Dont sling the hypocrite word around... its tired.


Eh? "Thou shall not kill and steal and so on and so forth..."

Go to war! Kill and take their lands! :D

And people say "I love everyone!" and so on.. But they don't... That's a front. How can you have some "godly" love for everyone yet go to arms.. Pick up a rifle and blast hot shells deep through another mans face so it implodes.. *gets out his umbrella* Watch out skull fragment coming down....

You see it all the time humans are mostly two faced back stabbing creatures... I have known christians of many types... catholic, JW, baptist and so on that claim to have this special love for all... You seen them when trying to have a meal and there is a screaming whiny baby at the next table... or someone cuts them off in traffic.. or in drunken situations.. Meh I don't know where I'm going with this... Just you cannot love everyone.
 
what a great teacher Jesus was,and what wise counsel Jesus gave to his followers,
"You heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ However, I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." (Mt 5:38, 39) Here Jesus was not teaching pacifism or denying the right of self-defense from bodily harm, but he was teaching that a Christian does not need to pay back blow for blow, retaliating, taking vengeance. He was inculcating the principle of avoiding quarrels by not replying or reacting in kind. A slap on the cheek is not intended to injure physically but only to insult or to provoke into a fight. Jesus did not say that if someone strikes a Christian on the jaw, he should get up off the floor and hold the other side of his face for a target. What Jesus was saying was that if anyone tried to provoke a Christian into a fight or argument by either slapping him with an open hand or stinging him with insulting words, it would be wrong to retaliate. This is in harmony with the statements of the apostles, giving further emphasis to this principle.—Ro 12:17-21; 1Pe 3:9.
 
Eh? "Thou shall not kill and steal and so on and so forth..."

Go to war! Kill and take their lands! :D

And people say "I love everyone!" and so on.. But they don't... That's a front. How can you have some "godly" love for everyone yet go to arms.. Pick up a rifle and blast hot shells deep through another mans face so it implodes.. *gets out his umbrella* Watch out skull fragment coming down....

You see it all the time humans are mostly two faced back stabbing creatures... I have known christians of many types... catholic, JW, baptist and so on that claim to have this special love for all... You seen them when trying to have a meal and there is a screaming whiny baby at the next table... or someone cuts them off in traffic.. or in drunken situations.. Meh I don't know where I'm going with this... Just you cannot love everyone.

Yeah we're all human lol
 
Eh? "Thou shall not kill and steal and so on and so forth..."

Go to war! Kill and take their lands! :D

And people say "I love everyone!" and so on.. But they don't... That's a front. How can you have some "godly" love for everyone yet go to arms.. Pick up a rifle and blast hot shells deep through another mans face so it implodes.. *gets out his umbrella* Watch out skull fragment coming down....

You see it all the time humans are mostly two faced back stabbing creatures... I have known christians of many types... catholic, JW, baptist and so on that claim to have this special love for all... You seen them when trying to have a meal and there is a screaming whiny baby at the next table... or someone cuts them off in traffic.. or in drunken situations.. Meh I don't know where I'm going with this... Just you cannot love everyone.
I can love someone and be upset. Trust me I have 3 teenage daughters and a 4 yr old. Just cause I get upset at the parents of the 2 month old crying in the movie theater does not mean I hate them or dont love them it means I am irritated.
 
Don't you just want to get up there and shove their face into some popcorn the kick them in the rear so they roll down to the bottom of the theatre and then just scream "SHUT UP!!!!!!!!"

:/ Thats me irritated... Irritation is violence's lil sister.
 
Don't you just want to get up there and shove their face into some popcorn the kick them in the rear so they roll down to the bottom of the theatre and then just scream "SHUT UP!!!!!!!!"

:/ Thats me irritated... Irritation is violence's lil sister.

:D:D:D

Irritation is violence's lil sister...I like that.

Did you make that up? Can I use it?
 
Just to quote one of the fountains of all wisdom-Starship Troopers-'sheer naked agression has resolved more disputes than any other factor'. And who's to say the 'turn the other cheek' idea has to be passive- I remember seeing a TV film a long time ago were it was interpreted (visualy) as very agressive and intimidating, kind of like some one hits you, you get right in the guys face and say 'make you feel better?-Go on, hit me again', it was VERY agressive and intimidating, not at all passive or meek... Just a thought.
 
One story of the origin of this was...

A master would only hit his slave back-handed, usually with his right hand.
If the slave turned the other cheek, the master would either be forced to hit him like an equal (open-handed) or back down.
 
One story of the origin of this was...

A master would only hit his slave back-handed, usually with his right hand.
If the slave turned the other cheek, the master would either be forced to hit him like an equal (open-handed) or back down.

interesting-still not a passive interpritation though, it's quite a confrontational stance. (And risky for the slave).
 
... You seen them when trying to have a meal and there is a screaming whiny baby at the next table... or someone cuts them off in traffic.. or in drunken situations.. Meh I don't know where I'm going with this... Just you cannot love everyone.
It is true that these challenges...uh challenge us.

But if you perceive that everyone you encounter is here to assist you in learning unconditional love...the situation changes. When you I hear the whiny baby, I feel for both the child and the parents, as I was there, as a parent.

I've come to realize nobody cuts me off in traffic...some are racing down the road with abandon, some just realized they were in the wrong lane and needed to exit, some are just trying to get to the office or the hospital...either way it has nothing to with me...that was my old perception, but now I just let my foot off the gas, practice defensive driving, say a prayer that they get there...wherever there is safely. My grandfathers method as they flew by or 'cut him off' was simply to say outloud, "Tell'em were comin' when you get there!" Took me 30 years to figure out how valuable that attitude is.

and dealing with drunks...for years my friends and family dealt with me...I can surely deal with others for the rest of my lifetime...of course it is quite interesting...when you don't go where the drunks are...you don't encounter them so much...

Not being sanctimonious here at all. I just think turning the other cheek in the literal sense has value. Developing an awareness of our actions, reactions and perceptions and knowing there is another way is incredibly rewarding in life. I traveled these same roads as an angry, chip on my shoulder ass and constantly encountered those that proved my viewpoint and deserved my wrath. I now know I encounter the exact same folks in the exact same situations, and end up without anyone being injured, feelings hurt or blood pressure rising. oooh not always...but often...and when the issues now occur, I see them differently and as a tool to use to grow...always knowing it is my growth I need to concern myself with...not theirs.
 
I treat this literally, as do many of the "peace" churches in Christianity and the trends of conscientious objectors in some of the other churches.

I believe that Jesus was calling us to behave in a new way- to literally love our enemies, pray for them, to not repay violence with violence. I do not believe you can really love someone and be violent against them at the same time. It is fine and well to say that one loves the Iraqis and then bomb them, but it really makes no sense from my perspective. The more I recognize that all beings are priceless to God, and that they contain the light of God (even if they don't themselves recognize or honor it), the more I God corrects my tendencies to be self-centered- to anger, to be irritated, to be defensive. It's begging the whole "What Would Jesus Do?" argument. Would Jesus bomb Iraqis? Would He be OK with killing innocent civilians?

I just think the issue is pretty clear. Really difficult, yes. But clear. I suppose if God Himself ever comes to tell me otherwise, as He told people in the OT, I will change my mind. But in the meantime, I follow Christ's example, not my government's or culture's. Christ suffered unto death as an innocent, and in so doing, He changed for all eternity the relationship between God and humanity. And if I am called to take up my cross and follow Him, to love my enemies and pray for them, to turn the other cheek... how can I justify doing what is clearly oppositional behavior?

As for defense... in most cases, defending oneself does not have to mean violence, and it certainly (in my beliefs) does not extend to defending man-created institutions such as governments. I don't allow myself to be trod upon, but I avoid this by leaving the situation and relying on God, not by violence. Many social and personal injustices are healed through non-violent means- just look at Ghandi and Martin Luther King. And as I've said before, this is not idealism. I have been in a situation in which I was abused and faced the possibility of being killed, and I did not respond with violence, nor am I embittered against him. I don't take credit for that, but rather use it to encourage others- that Christ can work in our lives to peacably end injustice and suffering, and to propose that violence begets violence and does not ultimately give peace to anyone.

It may seem quite un-American, but on 9/11, I prayed just as much for the terrorists and felt just as badly for them as I did for the Americans who were killed. The terrorists, in some ways, were in an even worse position. They were so obviously lost and had so thoroughly forgotten the light of God within them... so out of touch with God to do such acts. It is so sad.

I suppose I am aligned with Quakers and Amish and such on these issues. As one Amish father said recently after the shooting of the girls at an Amish school (by a non-Amish man), he felt the most for the murderer (who had committed suicide after his crime). When asked why, he explained that the girls were cared for by God and were now in heaven, but the murderer was obviously so far from God's peace and love... and now he was lost forever. When this grieving man was asked what he would do/say if the murderer was still alive and in front of him, he said he would bring his Bible and pray with the man, encouraging him to give up his troubles and suffering and evil ways- to give it over to God and be renewed in Christ. And this, from a people who were relentlessly persecuted... originally killed for their beliefs, thrown in jail in America for following their beliefs and not going to war, and still get the misunderstanding and ridicule of so many.

Of course the peace churches aren't perfect- no one is. But on this issue, I think they show an inspiring example of embracing the literal words (and actions) of Christ.
 
I treat this literally, as do many of the "peace" churches in Christianity and the trends of conscientious objectors in some of the other churches.

I believe that Jesus was calling us to behave in a new way- to literally love our enemies, pray for them, to not repay violence with violence. I do not believe you can really love someone and be violent against them at the same time. It is fine and well to say that one loves the Iraqis and then bomb them, but it really makes no sense from my perspective. The more I recognize that all beings are priceless to God, and that they contain the light of God (even if they don't themselves recognize or honor it), the more I God corrects my tendencies to be self-centered- to anger, to be irritated, to be defensive. It's begging the whole "What Would Jesus Do?" argument. Would Jesus bomb Iraqis? Would He be OK with killing innocent civilians?

I just think the issue is pretty clear. Really difficult, yes. But clear. I suppose if God Himself ever comes to tell me otherwise, as He told people in the OT, I will change my mind. But in the meantime, I follow Christ's example, not my government's or culture's. Christ suffered unto death as an innocent, and in so doing, He changed for all eternity the relationship between God and humanity. And if I am called to take up my cross and follow Him, to love my enemies and pray for them, to turn the other cheek... how can I justify doing what is clearly oppositional behavior?

As for defense... in most cases, defending oneself does not have to mean violence, and it certainly (in my beliefs) does not extend to defending man-created institutions such as governments. I don't allow myself to be trod upon, but I avoid this by leaving the situation and relying on God, not by violence. Many social and personal injustices are healed through non-violent means- just look at Ghandi and Martin Luther King. And as I've said before, this is not idealism. I have been in a situation in which I was abused and faced the possibility of being killed, and I did not respond with violence, nor am I embittered against him. I don't take credit for that, but rather use it to encourage others- that Christ can work in our lives to peacably end injustice and suffering, and to propose that violence begets violence and does not ultimately give peace to anyone.

It may seem quite un-American, but on 9/11, I prayed just as much for the terrorists and felt just as badly for them as I did for the Americans who were killed. The terrorists, in some ways, were in an even worse position. They were so obviously lost and had so thoroughly forgotten the light of God within them... so out of touch with God to do such acts. It is so sad.

I suppose I am aligned with Quakers and Amish and such on these issues. As one Amish father said recently after the shooting of the girls at an Amish school (by a non-Amish man), he felt the most for the murderer (who had committed suicide after his crime). When asked why, he explained that the girls were cared for by God and were now in heaven, but the murderer was obviously so far from God's peace and love... and now he was lost forever. When this grieving man was asked what he would do/say if the murderer was still alive and in front of him, he said he would bring his Bible and pray with the man, encouraging him to give up his troubles and suffering and evil ways- to give it over to God and be renewed in Christ. And this, from a people who were relentlessly persecuted... originally killed for their beliefs, thrown in jail in America for following their beliefs and not going to war, and still get the misunderstanding and ridicule of so many.

Of course the peace churches aren't perfect- no one is. But on this issue, I think they show an inspiring example of embracing the literal words (and actions) of Christ.

The world needs the likes of you, as much as the likes of me right now...:eek:

Maybe one day, my kind won't be needed (then I can go back to my woods and contemplate the wonders of the universe), but not today.

v/r

Joshua
 
The world needs the likes of you, as much as the likes of me right now...:eek:

Maybe one day, my kind won't be needed (then I can go back to my woods and contemplate the wonders of the universe), but not today.

v/r

Joshua

This is why, though I am a pacifist, I respect those who aren't. I can't answer for what they feel called by God to do, and I respect and am grateful for their following of their own path, even if it is not mine.

Recently I caught a PBS special in which WWII veterans from all countries got together to discuss. It was so touching to see Germans, Japanese, British, Americans... all together and shedding tears over the same memories of losing loved ones, fellow soldiers... After all these years, men on both sides shed tears over having to kill others, and explained they never could really get over it. It just makes no sense...

If people would simply focus on love and service to God and others, we wouldn't get into these situations. It seems so simple to me... I can't help but wonder at how hellish humanity chooses to make life when underneath it all is the Kingdom of God just waiting to be embraced...

I do pray, Q, for peace in every person's heart- peace with God, with themselves, with other humans, and with all beings. I do believe that one day, no one will feel called to fight... and I pray in the meantime that the wonders of the universe heal the often painful reality of what humans choose to make of it.
 
Truly this is the gauntlet laid down.

Love your enemies.

Non-violence....tis the season right now as Path expressed we see very few publicly standing up and saying it from the mountain....but the most interesting thing is...we know their names!!...Jesus, Martin Luther King, Ghandhi.

I know there are more Mother Teresa, St Thomas Aquinas, folks who stood right in the middle of strife and made a difference without picking up a weapon.

Today is the day, should we choose it. It is always our choice.
 
Back
Top