Religion vs Philosophy?

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by mac1, Dec 24, 2003.

  1. mac1

    mac1 New Member

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    Over the last couple of years I have become more and more interested in philosophy. For a long time I looked at philosophy simply as another form of thought outside religion, but of late I have come to regard them as opposites. I have recently come to this conclusion as I feel that (for the most part) religion at its most intense is the mass belief of a given field of spiritual thought, whereas philosophy to me, is at its most intense, the singular and individual means by which to systematically and scientifically doubt everything, right down to the existance of ones own being. I think that religion and philosophy are do not go hand in hand as is traditionally believed, but are actually fundamental opposites. It seems to me that for a long time, nonconformist beliefs such as Satanism have often been viewed as the flipside of the religious coin. But from the external viewpoint I take, esoteric beliefs such as these are simply other religions with vastly differing centers of worship. Surely the doubt of all such beliefs is actually the alternative to religion. Or am I wrong?
     
  2. Zazen

    Zazen New Member

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    depends

    depends, what philosophy are you talkin about? you just say "philosophy" well what the hell?

    philosophy is basically speculation about the universe, so that can mean alot, philosophy can also be a way to follow and such

    so umm, really anyway id have to disagree anyway since most major religions all have strong philosophical teachings
     
  3. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep New Member

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    Definitions of science, religion, philosophy, art

    Would you like to consider my definitions of philosophy, religion, science, and art?

    Philosophy is the endless continuous search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything by speculative thinking.

    Religion is a human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affections and actions intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably to the believer.

    Science is the endless continuous search for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist by laboratory methods in a controlled setting or in the fields, by observation and experimentation and more of observation and experiemtnation.

    Art is the endless continuous search for the elicitatioin of feelings like admiration, sorrow, joy, even ecstasy, awe, pride, loyalty, by any ways and means human ingenuity can command.


    Hope these definitions can be useful to you people here.

    Susma Rio Sep
     
  4. Pilgram

    Pilgram New Member

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    Philosophy is much more than any of you in thiis thread have even hinted at. If it were not for philosophy (and its subset: logic) we all might be living in caves and walking to the local witch doctor instead of driviing to the E.R. for emergency life saving treatment.

    Religion has little use for rational thinking so in one sense you are right that religion and philosophy are opposites.

    But religion and philosophy are not opposites in other senses nor must they be. But the word philosophy like religion has many meanings and subsets.

    I will end this answer simply be saying that philosophy was responsible for logical thinking which led to many labor saving and life saving technologies. While I believe I am a very religious man, I do not believe that the organized religions have led to anything useful to man and have led to many things harmful and even deadly.

    Peace and love
     
  5. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro

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    Which branch of philosophy are you asking about? Logic? Ethics? Metaphysics? Please be a bit more precise, thank you. (I'm asking because I've taken classes in two of the three branches: logic and ethics.)

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  6. Pilgram

    Pilgram New Member

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    Greetings,

    You directed this question to me (Pilgram) and I didn't ask anything (not that I don't have lots of questions!)

    I was answering the thread starter and I am mostly referring to logic in my post above.

    Love and Peace
     
  7. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro

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    Sorry. I was directing my question to the thread originator, too. Mea culpa, mea culpa. :eek:

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  8. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep New Member

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    Organized religions have uses also.

    Pilgram, you say:

    I agree with you almost completely.

    But remember that organized religions give us very impressive architecture, and monuments, and the arts, music, literature, and make people behave to a good measure for community living.

    For me I appreciate in particular church weddings and religious burials.

    But I don’t commend the ancient Egyptians for their mammoth burial mounds called pyramids.

    Susma Rio Sep
     
  9. Pilgram

    Pilgram New Member

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    Susma Rio Sep says:

    Greetings Rio Sep,

    I love God as much as anyone but organized religions are not God! I appreciate your love of architecture and the arts and I too love them as well. But I respectfully disagree with your statement that they were given to us by organized religion. History says otherwise.

    Individuals gave us every work of art, not organizations. Some of the artists that created masterpieces paid lip service to the church while secretly dispising the cardinals and bishops that doled out the money to pay for their materials and room and board.

    Organized religion is no different from an organized corporation. It is a COMMITTEE made up of individuals. Some individuals are good and others are just there to obtain as much power as can be obtained in the organization. In climbing to the top of any organization, people do whatever is necessary including lying, cheating, stealing and even murder. The church is a perfect example of this.

    Art and all creation comes from individuals with vision. It cannot and will not ever come from committee. Organizations like the church or GM can only fund and control the individuals who do the creative work. And the orgainzation gets to take the credit for the creation.

    Getting back to organized religion, there is more evidence pointing to the negatives than positives. The best thing religion has going for it is that it teaches people not to question it and so few people actually look into the history of religion and see its monstrous evil. Hand in hand with this is that the church never fails to point out how much "good" it, the church (not individuals like Bach, Michaelangelo, et al) does!

    God save me from your followers.

    Peace and love
     
  10. mac1

    mac1 New Member

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    Sorry, I do apologise, I only just realised how broadly my initial post could have read. I was talking about philosophy from a purely metaphysical perspective. As a system by which to doubt the world around you, or if you can fathom it, the open-mindedness to try and question whether you yourself even exist, be it in the form you know, or at all. I guess my post is really the suggestion that Metapysics is actually the opposite of religion. If you can see where I am coming from?
     
  11. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep New Member

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    More evil than good

    Touch (with acute accent on the end vowel), Pilgram. Thanks for contributing to a balanced or more realistic opinion on my part:

    _____________________________________

    Getting back to organized religion, there is more evidence pointing to the negatives than positives. The best thing religion has going for it is that it teaches people not to question it and so few people actually look into the history of religion and see its monstrous evil. Hand in hand with this is that the church never fails to point out how much "good" it, the church (not individuals like Bach, Michaelangelo, et al) does!
    ______________________________________

    Yes, I agree with you completely that on the scale of history organized religion has been more evil than good for mankind.

    And about the impressive architecture I have always wondered whether the laborers who built churches and temples and monasteries were working from religious fervor. Most probably quite the opposite, most probably from coercive servitude. For example like the workers who slaved on the pyramids?


    I myself would not object to a secular government which on the one hand bans organizations of religion, but on the other let people cultivate religious sentiments as they prefer personally and individually.

    And that is why I am not hostile to the Chinese government running Tibet, and going against the Falun Qong movement -- but no violence, please.


    Dear Pilgram, I think we are ‘soulmates’, hahaha; if that is not unwelcome to you.

    Susma Rio Sep
     
  12. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    if killing 1,000,000 Tibetans is ok with you.. and systematically destroying over 500 monestaries and forcing nuns to have sex in the street and then killing their families in front of them is something that you support, then i'm afraid that i shall have no more to say to you on this topic.
     
  13. Nogodnomasters

    Nogodnomasters New Member

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    The Chinese claim they are just fighting a war against terrorists.
     
  14. Pilgram

    Pilgram New Member

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    Greetings Susma Rio Sep,

    You wrote:
    ******************************************************


    Sorry Susma but I could never be a soulmate with someone who is "not hostile to the Chinese government" that has murdered millions of people. Perhaps you are writing tongue in cheek!?

    In any case, I am for complete separation of church and state. That does not require the destruction of the church! (Although if Ashcroft would like to imprison Falwell and Robertson, I would not protest).

    I am simply saying that individuals create. Governments destroy. It is not incompatible to my thinking that an artist creates out of "religious" fervor. My love for God moves me to create but it is my individual effort that is responsible for whatever it is I create. It is not the state or the church that is responsible. Even if they fund my work, they should only recieve mention for funding; not for creating.

    As far as the Chinese government goes, I believe the only reason America is friendly with it is because America has been taken over by men and women who agree with China's repressive tactics. I see America becoming a police state dictatorship (gradually) as Americans silently stand by as our "leaders" cry NATIONAL SECURITY and strip us of our hard earned rights. My father didn't fight in WWII so that I would be suspected of terrorism if I carried a nail clipper to an airport!

    Peace and Love
     
  15. Zazen

    Zazen New Member

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    yep

    come now people, the chinese government isnt that bad, actually i dont really know to much about the tibet/china situation enough to have an intelligent or moral reason to be against it but i have always been against it

    regardless, as far as i know the "tibet situation" has been going on for a pretty long time, infact i dont think there is any raping and pillageing going on anymore

    BUT, regardless YOU CANNOT BLAME CHINA(the people!) FOR ITS GOVERNMENTS(corrupt warlord rulers) ACTIONS

    for one, what vaj described, killing of 1million tibetans, raping nuns etc has all happened in China aswell, during the cultural revolution ALL religous and spiritual practices were strictly(haha) prohibited, temples were raised to the ground, people were killed..imprisoned etc on a mass scale, religous books and sacred texts, artifacts, all things of priceless value to all mankind were utterly destroyed

    even in the shaolin temple(birth place of Chan for christ sake!), probably the most well known singular temple in the world and probably(heh) the most sacred throughout all of chinas history was subject to these crimes!

    regardless of all that, do you guys have any idea how many people starved to death or died of illness during the cultural revolution? gody and the way they live over there..go live in china for a year..teach english or something, then youll see how much their gaining from being so evil and vicious killers of tibetans

    the outrageousness of it all does make you wonder what the hell..but regardless China is changeing, its government is changeing, the peoples level of awarness and invovlement in the government is growing! these are all good things, not to be condemned and looked down upon, China is not an evil nation! it never has been

    so, basically just saying try not and be ignorant if you wanna speak bad or good about something make sure you look at all the angles

    amitabha
     
  16. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    naturally.. and they claim that Taiwan is seeking independence.. when they've had it since the government escaped from the mainland.

    eh... what do you really expect... they even classify the Falun Gong as a "splittest" organization.

    of course.. one is left to wonder if those same "terrorists" would be doing anything to China if China was not occupying thier home land.
     
  17. Zazen

    Zazen New Member

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    hmm

    the taiwan situation is imho ridiculous, but i can see their point! regardless hasnt taiwan been a part of china for basically all of chinas history before the communist rule? because i really dont know, i think it was but i dunno

    if it was and they are now trying to turn around and say the reason they deserve independence is because they have a seperate culture and all this, well then sorry..but your just full of it, and basically that isnt a good arguement! even though i dont think they are in the wrong for not wanting to be a part of china!

    and falun gong? does anyone even realise what falun gong is?

    falun gong should never be used in an arguement against china, trust me, its wrong.

    amitabha
     
  18. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    the Taiwan issue is much more complex than that... the legitimate government escaped the communists and fled to Taiwan. they believe that they were the government of China and that the communists are illegitimate. that may not be the major issue nowadays, however, it does give them precedent for their position.

    they do have a seperate culture, the island has a native population that is different than any of the Chinese tribes... of course, today, there is plenty of mix in the population of the island so even this issue is mitigated to a certain degree.

    yes, i do know what falun gong is. it's not that i don't trust you.. i just don't agree :)
     
  19. Zazen

    Zazen New Member

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    hmm

    the way you ended your post leaves me to feel you either dont wish to discuss the subject further or maybe you just didnt think to, but some more detail on why you dont agree with me would be appreciated

    regardless..falun gong, those two words just make me laugh and shiver at the same time, i love it

    hahahahahahaha

    amitabha

    ps brrrrrrrrrrrrr
     
  20. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste zazen,

    oh, not at all. i didn't mean to give you that impression.

    i'm happy to discuss it with you or anyone else for that matter.

    i disagree with your statement that it's wrong that is all.

    it is said that there are 84,000 Dharma Doors, each one reflecting the needs of a particular type of practiconer. Falun Gong is simply one of those doors.

    now, i should say that from my schools point of view, it is not the final door.. but then again, that is just our perspective.

    in any event, we say that if a tradition or practice teaches a moral and ethical path, they are a valid refuge. Falun Gong does that and thus is a valid refuge. again, according to my school, it's not the final refuge.

    in any event... for more information, the interested reader is directed to this site:

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/falungong.htm
     

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