god gives hope for humanity?

as far as I know god wants to glorify himself. He also wants to hav e a relationship with us humans and show us he loves us. he also has to be just, merciful,and loving to a degree called perfect. whatever that means.

so he hates sin and evil. So he wants to one day rid this world and existence of those things. Im not sure why he let the world fall in the firstplace, but he did. and he either meant it to happen, or didnt mean it to happe... neither way really makes sense.

but he ha sa lot of wrath and anger at people who sin.

he used to demand blood sacrifices all the time.

now he came up with the ultimate sacrifice to appease all his wrath through killing himself/his son...

he basically is so angry at us that he thinks we should all be tormented forever after we die. but at the same tim e he offers a miracle cure for all our ailments that he will put into effect after we die.

if we accept the sacrifice before we die, he loves us, and forgets all our problems, he whiupes our eyes and gives us a shoulder to lean on.

if we do not accept it, woe unto us, we are metaphorically or literally burned for all time in the fires of hades/.sheol/gehenna...


he made it a choice for god knows why.

it really is a pickle, the whole rejecting god thing. We cant really be free in relation to god if we cant reject him right?

and rejection leads to absense of god. I guess it makes sense...

but it doesnt seem right. Ill be back with why, right now my mind is just glimpsing the truth, unable to put it all into words...

I guess I dont see the point. We cant reject the sun, for example.

also, the only point to god letting us reject him is that his creations end up in peril. Maybe this is one choice we shouldnt have to make.

If god is there, does a choice to reject him exist? only if someone imposes that we have to make a choice or suffer consequences...

to re iterate. it is useless to say "gods ways are not our ways"

we only have our ways. even when we think about how gods ways are not our ways, we are still trapped in our ways. we only have our ways, and by our ways, god doesnt really come out as a likeable fellow. unless its ok for sentient beings to be eternally tormented.... but I think most of us in normal circumstances (when not talking about the god that exists only in the imagination to the best of our knowledge) dont think it is right for things to be eternally tormented.

and people say, well he warned you.

you have to kind of imagine what kind of people would say something like "follow this or be eternally tormented"

yo have to think what kind of impression this kind of being leaves on the mind...
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by the way I hear that allah the merciful lets people out of hell after a while and forgives them, something that jesus cannot do!
 
you know, shadowman, all i ever read you do is whine and moan and groan about how imperfect God is and why He needs to have a hell exist. if you truly feel that hell shouldn't exist then have a gander at muslimwoman's account of this world's judicial system and the monster's that take advantage of it, right here on this thread, read and tell me if eternal damnation is still not necessary! if you can't see that, then that is something you truly need to consider when you are alone praying to God, because believe it or not, there are some really messed up people out there, man. thanks for reading and God bless you....
 
Leo, wouldn't you say it was, fair to say no one truly knows the answers... So, if you dislike the idea of Hell, then look at the concepts of say the JW's they will show you understanding and translation, so will other groups of christians to there being no hell..... If you don't like hell, don't believe in hell.... Focus more on the good stuff... Would you say that is good advice Leo?
 
look, no one truly knows what hell is like. jw's say it is a second death, non existence if you will, catholics believe it is eternal torment, i am just speaking on shadow's level of understanding. i don't like the idea of hell either, man, but is very necessary, otherwise there will never be justice for the broken-hearted. yes, it is good advice to not focus on it, you are absolutely right. i couldn't agree on it more, but lets be truthful, you can't go on believing something isn't there when in fact it is threre, you know? do you believe in a form of hell or eternal grave, 17th?
 
Let me tell you a story [quite possibly a true story.]

Little tiny Tommy would quake in his pj's at bed time every night, shaking, nervously clenching his blanket in his sweat drenched bed.... Staring not even blinking, staring at his closet, he had this fear that there was evil there, well call it the boogey man.... For argument sakes... This boogey man wished to inflict pain and suffering on tiny Tommy..... He never slept his eyes darkened and bags grew below his eyes... Till, one day tiny Tommy's mother went to him noticing this fear and told him.... "there was no Boogey man." The end... lol.....

Me? I believe there is nothing but rest after life. Eternal sleep.... No more pain or suffering or anything... Just, rest.

If there is a god, then I believe there is no hell... He may raise those he deems worthy of such a second gift of life, but he wouldn't punish anyone, so no even if I had a faith in a god, I wouldn't believe in a firey place of punishment... Earth gives you enough of that.... ;)
 
Me? I believe there is nothing but rest after life. Eternal sleep.... No more pain or suffering or anything... Just, rest.
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but, what about the monster's in this world? i know we shouldn't avenge the innocent but they have to answer to their sins, one way or another, no? i guess, my view is purely based on hope. hope is weak, i know, but i have nothing else to hope for just that things in the end have to be better than right now, because right now just sucks. maybe it is just me, but i feel terrible, suvivor's guilt, if you will, for those on the other side of the world being murdured or raped and not me. why do i have to live well, but they don't?

If there is a god, then I believe there is no hell... He may raise those he deems worthy of such a second gift of life, but he wouldn't punish anyone, so no even if I had a faith in a god, I wouldn't believe in a firey place of punishment... Earth gives you enough of that.... ;)
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there has to be a climax to all of the crap that is happening in this world, it can't go on like this. it has to get better. evil must answer. let me ask you this, don't you feel guilty that you live well and others don't?
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
but, what about the monster's in this world? i know we shouldn't avenge the innocent but they have to answer to their sins, one way or another, no? i guess, my view is purely based on hope. hope is weak, i know, but i have nothing else to hope for just that things in the end have to be better than right now, because right now just sucks. maybe it is just me, but i feel terrible, suvivor's guilt, if you will, for those on the other side of the world being murdured or raped and not me. why do i have to live well, but they don't?
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Aaah yes, the strong impulse in all humans, vengance... ;) One man shoots another..... The man who did the shooting then gets demoted to the firery pits of hell.... He is now suffering for eternity..... What has been accomplished by this? What have we gained? Yet another man's suffering?
Why them not you? Because.... Remeber those other occasions though when something terrible happens to you? Ever thought. Why the hell does this happen to me? Why couldn't happen to so and so? Ever been in that situation? (Just curious lol) Life doesn't tend to be fair.....


LeoSalinas22 said:
there has to be a climax to all of the crap that is happening in this world, it can't go on like this. it has to get better. evil must answer. let me ask you this, don't you feel guilty that you live well and others don't?
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No, I do not feel guilty.... Why the hell not?! Because I am only human, I am not a god... I do what I can, don't get me wrong... I donate over £100 a month to a cancer charity, animal charity and child protection charity.... But, I cannot feed the world can I? I can't fix the drought in Africa... I can't stop the war crimes in (wherever) I can't save the woman being raped... It is out of my power, so I don't worry about it because there in all honesty isn't much I can do about that....... Life isn't fair.... But either way If there is a god, those people will get their rewards and such... If not, At least they are at peace.........
 
ok, i understand your point of view, but it is a long story about how i interpret hell, and it is an insane one at that. i will have to start a separate thread for it and ask everyone's opinions on it or thoughts. you are right, about people being given a second chance. it isn't as simple as, " this man shot this man so he goes to hell" kind of situation. it is very complicated. yes, i do believe in second chances, everyone should! but you have to realize that some people are sick and need help and other people are just too f****ing smart to be sick. adolf hitler for instance. he could be forgiven, but he knew exactly what he was doing. he was killing for his personal prejudices. does he deserve forgiveness? yes, he does. but does he want it, is another question. what he would tell God when he is face to face with Him about why he committed all these atrocities will mean the difference between eternal life or eternal death. again, i understand your point of view. i will get the thread going and we shall chat then. see you later, aligator! God bless you...
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
you know, shadowman, all i ever read you do is whine and moan and groan about how imperfect God is and why He needs to have a hell exist. if you truly feel that hell shouldn't exist then have a gander at muslimwoman's account of this world's judicial system and the monster's that take advantage of it, right here on this thread, read and tell me if eternal damnation is still not necessary! if you can't see that, then that is something you truly need to consider when you are alone praying to God, because believe it or not, there are some really messed up people out there, man. thanks for reading and God bless you....
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eternal, non corrective punishment is not cool. doesnt make sense. I dont see why it is looked at asaa "justice" and I agree, even hitler shouldnt be eternally tormented. either annihilated/eternal sleep.... or some kind of correction.

this to me is the ultimate good a creator could do. not judge and be "just" this is not the highest. the highest is forgive and (if you have the power) change.. you mean justice is punishing people that make life screwed up for the little time we are all alive? and after "death" we are all imortal? so at this point some of us are fixed so we never act unjust? why not everyone.

you cant have some people that are just "too bad."

its impossible to draw a line.

its like if a guy slaps his mom every day of his life he is bad enough for hell... but if he does it for the first 35 years and then stops, then he is ok or something. or a guy kills twice while another kills three times??

cant draw a line, thats the whole reason why the christians say god condemns EVERYONE. its a "perfect" (Arguable) system, meaning it doesnt tolerate a SINGLE flaw... everyone is condemned by the law.... thats how it works...

I just get confused about the intentions of the christian god, who is eager to forgive, up to a point, and after that point, he might as well be the devil, because he is not cool with you at all, after he decides its too late to firgive you.
 
in my point of view, shadowman, i don't know where people get the idea that He is a lovey dovey huggable God and will forgive always no matter what. you have to understand that some people are beyond salvation and as terrible as it sounds, annhialation of the ungodly is very necessary. if it wasn't, what is the point of this life? will all the pain and suffering just continue? no, evil must answer to God. here, check this scripture out, maybe you will understand more or maybe you won't. either way, it doesn't matter because you have your point of view and i have mine, but still we are talking about God, so we are glorifying Him, that's what counts, man.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 
but people thaty trust in the lord are automatically forgiven, the evil is payed for. they did evil too! but god is able to forgive and forget with them, because they accept the sacrifice. iI dont see much point to life anyway, as good as my life is in the US I know that its a lot worse a few blocks down at the homeless shelter, and Im not even thinking about africa or haiti where all they want is some food... I dont see how people being beyond salvation. If they trust in the lord, then after death they are completely fixed. so why not just do that right now, with everyone?

the only thing gods experiemnt uis doing is landing people in hell. as good as people being saved is, eternal torment is something that should never happen
 
A Voice From Hell

this is like the most depressing thing I have ever read. why do people dig on this?

why is christianity so morose, desolate, dismal and bleak?

is that really the truth?
 
shadowman said:
eternal, non corrective punishment is not cool. doesnt make sense. I dont see why it is looked at asaa "justice" and I agree, even hitler shouldnt be eternally tormented. either annihilated/eternal sleep.... or some kind of correction.
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Erm, we don't make the rules - G-d does, only He can decide if a person deserves heaven or hell. The fact that you may not like G-d's rules is neither here nor there. He decides what is justice and quite frankly none of us have any idea how He will decide this, we only have guidelines to follow and warnings to keep us from sin and therefore punishment.

shadowman said:
this to me is the ultimate good a creator could do. not judge and be "just" this is not the highest. the highest is forgive and (if you have the power) change.. you mean justice is punishing people that make life screwed up for the little time we are all alive? and after "death" we are all imortal? so at this point some of us are fixed so we never act unjust? why not everyone.
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All of the scriptures tell of how merciful and forgiving G-d is. But do you think G-d should say to us do as you like and I'll forgive you? We can all run around raping, murdering and commiting adultery because there is no fear of punishment - do you think that would help mankind?

shadowman said:
you cant have some people that are just "too bad."
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Unfortunately in my past work I have met some, so please believe me they do exist. Yes, they are small in number but they are out there.

shadowman said:
its impossible to draw a line.
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That is the difference between us and G-d, He knows everything and can draw the line with absolute justice and mercy.

shadowman said:
I just get confused about the intentions of the christian god, who is eager to forgive, up to a point, and after that point, he might as well be the devil, because he is not cool with you at all, after he decides its too late to firgive you.
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G-d created everything, including sin and Satan. He is "cool" with everyone, if they are "cool" with Him but to do that you have to follow His rules. That is what being the big guy is, He gets to decide everything. :)
 
Well doesnt allah let people out of hell after a while, even?

Well I think I am someone that is just too bad and evil. I guess Im not gonna like most religions anyway...
 
shadowman said:
Well doesnt allah let people out of hell after a while, even?
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It is my understanding that after a term of punishment the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) will be allowed to go to hell and retrieve people to go to heaven.

shadowman said:
Well I think I am someone that is just too bad and evil. I guess Im not gonna like most religions anyway...
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Sorry but I don't like this kind of talk. We have no idea how G-d will judge us and we all sin. What matters is do we feel shame, do we mean it when we say sorry, do we ask for forgiveness and do we cease the sin.

Take for example someone that commits murder - do they necessarily spend eternity in hell? Only G-d knows. However, G-d offers even this person the opportunity of forgiveness if they truly repent and do not commit the sin again. That does not mean we can murder whilst thinking I will repent tomorrow and get away with it. G-d knows everything in our hearts and our every intention.

This is why I hate the finger pointing "we're going to heaven because we believe x, y or z and you are going to hell because you don't" crowd. Only G-d may judge us, He knows our intentions and our every deed. It always puts me in mind of a Hells Angels advert I saw once that said "the good we do never rembemebered, the bad never forgotten" - it showed a picture of big greasy bikers giving toys to kids in hospital. Then there are priests behind closed doors who do awful things to kids. G-d knows all of this, He knows who we really are and will judge us accordingly.
 
shadowman said:
why is christianity so morose, desolate, dismal and bleak?

is that really the truth?
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Shadowman,

well, there are some autobiographical passages in Thomas Talbott's book "The Inescapable Love of God" where he speaks of his own early meeting with certain theologies that spoke much of God's "justice" and of God's "holiness", yet little of God's love..............

"I seemed unable to find a single mainline Christian theologian who truly believed.........in a loving God. They all claimed to believe in a just and a holy God, but this God seemed not to care enough about created persons even to will or to desire the good for all of them"

Talbott goes on to quote an example of some of the theology he encountered.........

"God is the sole ultimate cause of everything.......those men and angels destined to everlasting death are particularly and unchangeable designed......there never was the remotest possibility that something different could have happened......God is neither responsible nor sinful, even though he is the ultimate cause of everything. He is not sinful because in the first place whatever God does is just and right. It is just and right simply in virtue of the fact that he does it. Justice and rigtheousness is not a standard external to God to which God is obligated to submit. Righteousness is what God does...........At this point it must be particularly pointed out that God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts." (from "Religion, Reason and Revelation" by Gordon Clark)

Talbott goes on to say that he assumed initially that this point of view was simply an aberrant way of thinking, an idiosyncratic view at odds with tradition, but.......the more closely I looked at the tradition, the more I seemed to find the worst of Clark almost everywhere.......

The point is that there are alternatives. I have found my own in the Pure Land faith. Talbott found another tradition, another way. Whatever, we have to move on. Stay in the same old groove if you must, beating your head against a brick wall.

But truths and beliefs and faiths can be found where it is seen that Every living thing shall ripen and be saved (Milarepa), and where all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well (Julian of Norwich)

As the Buddhists say "walk on"!

Please!
:)
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
ok, i understand your point of view, but it is a long story about how i interpret hell, and it is an insane one at that. i will have to start a separate thread for it and ask everyone's opinions on it or thoughts. you are right, about people being given a second chance. it isn't as simple as, " this man shot this man so he goes to hell" kind of situation. it is very complicated. yes, i do believe in second chances, everyone should! but you have to realize that some people are sick and need help and other people are just too f****ing smart to be sick. adolf hitler for instance. he could be forgiven, but he knew exactly what he was doing. he was killing for his personal prejudices. does he deserve forgiveness? yes, he does. but does he want it, is another question. what he would tell God when he is face to face with Him about why he committed all these atrocities will mean the difference between eternal life or eternal death. again, i understand your point of view. i will get the thread going and we shall chat then. see you later, aligator! God bless you...
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"Forgive them. For they know not, what they do."
 
http://www.renealegre.net/Teachings/tracts12.html
A Voice From Hell
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http://www.renealegre.net/Teachings/tracts12.htmlthe article to me is beautiful.
this is like the most depressing thing I have ever read. why do people dig on this?
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well, it is written:
Matthew 5:
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
the red words are negative, it explains why it is ok to be depressed for His sake.
why is christianity so morose, desolate, dismal and bleak?
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because His are not of this world. this world does not satisfy His. His groan for Him, need Him.

is that really the truth?
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sadly, yes, for it is written:
Psalms 119:136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.

God bless you...
 
how did this article appear beautiful to you?

a voice from hell? does it please you to see your gods justice carried out at the expense of countless human beings eternal suffering?
 
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