Esoterism and esoterica

[InLove]

Hi Nick.

I am curious as to which religions you belonged to, in your various past lifetimes. Your interest in religious pluralism makes me wonder where you got such interest. (If you had been a Christian in all of your past lives, I believe you would not have such an interest today.) No doubt you have had many reincarnations in various religions, so now you wish to bring them together.

I don’t know, Nick, whether many reincarnations have taken place or not. If they have, I do not remember. Some say that reincarnation and a belief in Christ as Redeemer (both personal and universal) cannot go hand-in-hand. However, the Christ I know of has only revealed that I will be with Him when I pass from here—and I believe it will be at that time. What happens from that point on seems to be, as far as I can ascertain, anyone’s guess! What are those “many mansions” like? Who can say what that means? As far as “karma” goes, I have a hard time thinking of it in much different terms than along the lines of “what goes around, comes around”. But I suppose that if one were able to make certain choices between incarnations, then that would surely influence how that next “lifetime” would play out to a certain extent. But then, to think that there is a possibility of creating more negative karma is a bit daunting, and does seem to contradict the blessed assurance that is, after all, the message of the Christ (to me, anyway).

(I am not a follower of the Christian "eternal" doctrine, a doctrine which makes no sense to me.)

When you say that “eternity” makes no sense to you, do you mean that you believe there is a time when all existence ends?

InLove, now you can see how the Theosophical Hell is not a place of vengeful divine torture, but a place of burning off negativity that we have put upon ourselves.

Thanks—I was beginning to wonder! I didn’t think so, but it really does sound quite a bit like some Christian doctrines. Just on a personal note, I think that “hell” is separation from Love, and that we may enter into it in some ways here in “the plane” we are on at any given time. I do, however, still subscribe to the idea that there may be a “hell” on another or other planes, and that this “hell” could become eternal if we continue to deny the truth that comes from Love. When I say “Love”, I include “ the aspect of “Wisdom” as well. To me, without Love, there is no Wisdom, and vice-versa.

Perhaps my problem in subscribing to Theosophy is the same problem I have with just about any theology out there. I can take bits and pieces and they work. But pat formulas concerning the “afterlife” or “in between worlds” or “planes of existence” leave me wondering how, in the vastness of the great mysteries that are, anyone can say exactly how things work? Sure, we have the wise ones who come, and we have scholars, and we have psychic phenomenon, revelations, dreams, visions, experience, science, the literatature of the ages, history, and NDEs and the like—I mean, there is so much on which to base our opinions. But even in the case of near death experiences or psychic revelations, we still build those manmade assumptions or what have you from the statements of someone else, unless what we believe arises from our own personal knowledge or experience. Now, we can put these personal experiences together with what we have heard and come to a belief or at least an opinion. But I find it impossible to say for certain exactly how things will be when I pass from this life as I know it right now, even though I have had something very similar to a near death experience, I’d say. During this experience—and not an isolated one, by the way—what I did gain was a large measure of joy and assurance that humankind is a little mixed up when it comes to the message of Love and the mysteries therein. And here is where the “memories” you speak of may come into play, because from the time I was a child, I have always known that the Christ represented something for all people, that being the Love of God. Not in a way that says, “My God is better than your God, or that you must see Jesus of Nazareth the way I see Him in order to be “saved” or God cannot love you.” It isn’t that way as far as I can tell. It is just that He is there for me if I want, and there for anyone who wants. His whole message is about acceptance, not rejection. So I would say that, yes, I will see Him. I may also see Buddha—who knows? There was a time when I would have been afraid to type something like that, but it was only a short time out of my life, and I have come away from that kind of mindset, which I think is the “Christian” mindset to which Theosophy may very well be so opposed. I just find it a little sad, because I do not think it has to be that way. It isn’t just Theosophy, it is Christianity, too, along with lots of other philosophies out there. As I have been trying to tell Andrew (hi Andrew), it isn’t that I agree 100% with everything Roman Catholic—it is just that I make room for certain aspects within the different Traditions (just as I do for my dear Baptists!). There are certain things within each one that are unique, and that’s all I am saying. I never said there isn’t a golden thread of Truth that runs through them all. It is just that once parts of that Truth are recognized, why would I throw those parts out and start all over again?

Well, I have been rambling. At least I managed to do that! Yay! I hope I have managed to present my thoughts with some measure of clarity. As usual, I hope nothing I have said has offended. I kind of doubt it, but just remember that if I did, it is unintentional. It is just nice to be able to type a few serious ideas down for a few moments. I hate to keep blaming my problems on “chemo-brain” but, well, it is a pretty darned good excuse, I’m tellin’ ya!

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====ooo000ooo====-----

InLove, you said,

"I don’t know, Nick, whether many reincarnations have taken place or not. If they have, I do not remember."​

--> The vast majority of people do not remember their past lives. This is a good thing, because most of us are not ready to remember. Fortunately, it is said we will remember all of our past lives someday.

"Some say that reincarnation and a belief in Christ as Redeemer (both personal and universal) cannot go hand-in-hand."​

--> I agree!

"However, the Christ I know of has only revealed that I will be with Him when I pass from here—and I believe it will be at that time."​

--> It has been that those who want to see Jesus will see Jesus, those who want to see Buddha will see Buddha, etc.

"As far as "karma" goes, I have a hard time thinking of it in much different terms than along the lines of "what goes around, comes around". "​

--> The phrase "what goes around, comes around" summarizes the idea of karma nicely.

"But I suppose that if one were able to make certain choices between incarnations, then that would surely influence how that next "lifetime" would play out to a certain extent."​

--> That is an important part of my belief system. I believe we make very important decisions between incarnations.

"But then, to think that there is a possibility of creating more negative karma is a bit daunting...."​

--> It is less daunting than the eternal Christian Hell. It is also less daunting than the Christian idea that we are not responsible for what we do.

"...and does seem to contradict the blessed assurance that is, after all, the message of the Christ (to me, anyway)."​

--> Unfortunately, the Christian assurance makes no sense to me, which is why it is not a part of my belief system.

"When you say that "eternity" makes no sense to you, do you mean that you believe there is a time when all existence ends?"​

--> The answer to your question is quite complicated, so I will only give one aspect of the full answer. According to Theosophy, the universe is in its active state, which began with the Big Bang. Eventually, the entire universe will enter a state of rest (the Big Crunch), and everything (including us) will also enter a state of complete and total rest. All of our activity will cease for a very long time. So, according to Theosophy, even a state such as Hell must end at that time. The ramifications of an eternal Hell are much more unworkable than you realize.

"InLove, now you can see how the Theosophical Hell is not a place of vengeful divine torture, but a place of burning off negativity that we have put upon ourselves. --> Thanks—I was beginning to wonder! I didn’t think so, but it really does sound quite a bit like some Christian doctrines."​

--> I do not see the similarity. Feel free to give examples.

"When I say "Love", I include " the aspect of "Wisdom" as well. To me, without Love, there is no Wisdom, and vice-versa."​

--> I agree. Theosophy demands a person develop their critical thinking skills to a high level. Such critical-thinking skills are required (according to Theosoph) for us to move to the next level. (I see no such demand within most of Christianity.) Christianity says we merely accept one or two doctrines, and we are guaranted eternal bliss. Theosophy does not, and says believing in the ideas of simple-doctrine-acceptance and guaranted-eternal-bliss do not require much Wisdom at all. The requirement of high-critical-thinking skills in Theosophy, and the lack of such a requirement in Christianity is one of the biggest differences between the two philosophies.



Theosophy requires open-minded thinking. Theosophy requires critical-thinking. Tell most groups of Christians that their ideas do not make sense, and you will be criticized. Tell most groups of Theosophists that their ideas do not make sense, and you will be encouraged to follow your train of thought. When I say Theosophy has no dogma, I mean that I am not allowed to spoon-feed you ideas. Theosophy hates the very idea of blind faith. Theosophy forces you to chew on each idea, and only accept it when you are ready.

"... in the vastness of the great mysteries that are, anyone can say exactly how things work?"​

--> According to Theosophy, there are those people who have qualified to go to the next level, yet choose not to go. Instead, they return to Earth to share their first-hand experiences as to "exactly how things work"

"But even in the case of near death experiences or psychic revelations, we still build those manmade assumptions or what have you from the statements of someone else, unless what we believe arises from our own personal knowledge or experience."​

--> Ah, but that is the trick, isn't it? Sure, we all have man-made assumptions. (These assumptions very much effect our experiences in the afterlife, but that is another discussion for another time.) We also have all kinds of people telling us different versions of what is really going on.

"Now, we can put these personal experiences together with what we have heard and come to a belief or at least an opinion."​

--> Exactly!

"But I find it impossible to say for certain exactly how things will be when I pass from this life as I know it right now, even though I have had something very similar to a near death experience, I’d say."​

--> The only way we will know for certain is when we finally get there. Theosophy says a good Christian or a good Hindu is making just as much progress. (Sadly, Christianity does not agree.)

"...assurance that humankind is a little mixed up when it comes to the message of Love and the mysteries therein."​

--> Feel free to give examples. I think all of us can benefit from the examples you give.

"It is just that He is there for me if I want, and there for anyone who wants. His whole message is about acceptance, not rejection."​

--> I am afraid this takes us back to the belief Mahatma Gandhi is burning in Hell because he chose not to follow Jesus.

"I may also see Buddha—who knows?"​

--> I believe you will see Buddha in Heaven if you wish to see him.

"...I have come away from that kind of mindset, which I think is the "Christian" mindset to which Theosophy may very well be so opposed."​

--> You are making great progress. I commend you on the great progress you have made so far.

"...I make room for certain aspects within the different Traditions...."​

--> I believe each tradition has a piece of the true picture, just as you believe so.

"There are certain things within each one that are unique..."​

--> Theosophy takes it a step farther. Theosophy says there are different kinds of people, so we need different kinds of religions. One type of religion will not for everyone. (Sadly, Christianity does not agree.)

"It is just that once parts of that Truth are recognized, why would I throw those parts out and start all over again?"​

--> I do not see anyone asking you to throw out parts of Truth. Please feel free to give examples.

"Well, I have been rambling. At least I managed to do that!"​

--> It sounds like you have been very busy. I appreciate your finally finding time to post your ideas.

"As usual, I hope nothing I have said has offended."​

--> As usual, I have not found anything offensive.

"I hate to keep blaming my problems on "chemo-brain"...."​

--> A lot of us have been going through an unusually large amount of bad karma recently. Hang in there, and keep posting. Keep making progress along the Path, too.

~~~

The software at this Forum is extremely buggy, I have no idea why it keeps adding uncommanded carriage-returns.

 

[earl]

inLove-tend to agree withyour sketicism about any highly elaborated spiritual system which claims to know exactly what lies behind the veil-how can we know that "for sure?" Some long dead dude had said religions were created in at least part to give reassuring falsely certain ideas re the nature of death and beyond. If we haven't been "there" so to speak we're merely taking someone else's word, (who unless they've been there is doing the same thing), for it. Of course, the Buddhists have an elabrated belief system about the states following death that many Buddhist uncritically accept which purportedly is based on some other long dead dude's experiential observations. Does taking anybody's word for any spiritual belief ultimately serve us? Pros & cons to that one I guess. It's natural human curiosity to wonder about any of the great mysteries including death. The 1 thing that experiential data such as NDE's do seem to provide us is the suggestion that this ain't the final act for anyone though exactly what may come following true death-who knows? Nearly every culture though seemed to operate on the premise that something of us continued on after death going back to the Neandethals apparently-objects found in their graves suggest to some paleoanthropolgists that the Neanderthals because of that finding believed in some form of after-life. Of course, if you accept as true the communications purportedly received from deceased folk via instrumental transcommunication may actually be examples of the dead who've been there telling us how it is for them. I love to specualte as much as the next person but I've never thought that spirituality was primarily about getting you ready for your next destination. Rather it to me is about making the most of where you're at now. To some degree I think to much "false certainty" about what lays beyond our expriences is distracting from the spiritual journey-that's why I can appreciate Zen Buddhism which has historically more than any school of Buddhism eschewed (gesundheit) spending much time on such a topic and emphasizing what Ram Dass called the title of 1 of his books 30+ years ago "Be Here Now." earl

 

[taijasi]

A quick comment on how we can know things for certain using only the rules of logic, inference, and experience ...

Let us imagine, for simplicity's sake, a model of learning, knowledge, experience, and Wisdom, where an overall, blended level of `expertise' could be (simplistically) graded from A to Z.

Now imagine, with any given subject, that every person alive could be said to have expert, intermediate, or perhaps amateur proficiency - starting with A, and leading up to at least C, but perhaps no further.

Children learning in grade school might have, for example, an expert proficiency in astronomy at level A. They would have an intermediate proficiency at level B. And at level C, most would only be amateurs.

Now, in some rare exceptions a child might be a quick study, and might race ahead, such that his or her proficiency included expert mastery of level B, then intermediate at level C (or even D), then amateur at level D, even E.

Obviously, this is very one-dimensional thinking, and it is overly simplistic, but only by laying all this out will the rest of my post make sense.

This simplistic model could be applied, after a fashion, to ANY subject taught in our modern schools ... and in fact, if you think about it for a second, this is almost exactly how we GRADE our children, at least in the American K-12 system ... or at least, this was how we did it when I went to school. The only caveat is that E became F, to emphasize a failing grade, and A always means that one has passed an exam, a project, a presentation, or even an entire semester or class year with flying colors. In short, our (American) educational system uses a static scale, kind of the reverse of what I've laid out.

So getting back to my own model, let's consider:

If there is an objective truth regarding what happens to us all after death, for example, then it's really very simple. Some people have an understanding which begins at A, and does not even really reach the amateur level. These are few and far between, because I'd say that an A proficiency, expert, really just includes the acceptance that ALL THINGS THAT ARE BORN ALSO DIE. There are no exceptions to this rule.

B, however, will include a more detailed, or elaborated understanding of death, such as the fact that all of Nature observes a CYCLE, wherein birth and death go hand in hand, and are part of one, great SYSTEM.

Now add to this a C level of proficiency, which involves varying degrees of appreciation of our ecosystem, the fact that without death, there literally IS NO LIFE for Planet Earth, and maybe even the simple fact that there is much human speculation about whether or not we survive bodily death.

Now it is easy to see that proficiencies of understanding from D, E, F and beyond will include varying degrees of familiarity and grasp of the teachings from the various religions, what scientific research is out there, what the various symbologies of the world's religious and philosophical systems are (such as the phoenix, the grim reaper, the Ourobouros, the equal-armed cross, the Ankh, etc.) ...

But there is also an accumulated body of testimony, research and speculation (and belief) regarding out-of-body and near-death experiences ... such that we could easily see our A to Z model reach well past M, N and O.

Still, there is the testimony of those who have successfully MADE the transition themselves, from this world to the next, and who have either come back to talk about it ... or who have communicated this from the `other side' as it were.

It would seem that we just need to sit down, do the research for ourself, investigate what has already been amassed regarding the life after death SCIENTIFICALLY - in the SAME manner and according to the SAME METHOD, the recognized SCIENTIFIC METHOD, used by all other branches of the `hard sciences,' as well as by the social sciences.

The research, the testimony, the HARD, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE DOES EXIST.

You can ignore it, deny it, or refuse to face it, if you like.

And I will be the first to admit that it may take courage, if you have been brainwashed in your upbringing, or convinced by your fellow congregationalists, or assured by your pastor that it is the work of the devil even to QUESTION the dead-letter interpretation of the Holy Bible, and all other such measure of nonsense and gibberish.

I mean, yes, we DON'T HAVE all the answers, and probably NONE OF US, save those who have experienced death CONSCIOUSLY and MASTERED it, can go into the experience as calmly as most of us can sit down to eat a sandwich or an ice cream cone.

But after all this, I will tell you something.

Death is no different. There is an ice cream cone there, and you can see it. So can the people around you. It is tasty and enjoyable, unless it "goes down the wrong way," or unless you get hit by a truck as you're sitting there eating it.

What happened to the ice cream cone after you ate it? Was it magic? Did it disappear forever, leaving no TRACE? Do we insist that it is a mystery simply because it has left our objective, physical vision?

Man, no. It's in your stomach. That can be proven, quite easily.

And so can we prove what happens, what WILL happen, when any one of us dies. It's just up to you, every single one of us, to determine ... what do we want to know, and how important is it - to figure all this stuff out.

At some point, it's going to make you feel pretty STUPID, if you find that you've answered all your questions, but you still haven't quite learned what to DO with all that ... `knowledge.' And it isn't Wisdom, until and unless it's applied - and applied with Compassion, Lovingly, in Service.

It bugs me when people say, "it's a mystery, and we really don't know." Be honest. Use the personal pronoun. Say, I do not know. But do not assume that others don't.

You will not convince me that I did not float across the street during an out-of-body experience ... when I was 2 or 3. It cannot be done. I remain open to the possibility that I am in error regarding my understanding, or interpretation of the event. But, together with a handful of other experiences, and my 35 years to string them all together ... there are just some things that I KNOW.

And so does every one of us!

~_~_~_~_

As to the A B C ... think of it like this. My own proficiency (Understanding, Wisdom, grasp or knowledge) at say, level N might be PERFECT, or Expert. At level O it will be, say, Intermediate. And then at level P I am really quite an amateur. But is it safe to say I know ZIP about level Q?

No. I do know something. I just don't know very much at all. However, I may even know enough about Q to say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that even R at least EXISTS. WHAT can I say ABOUT it? Not a damn thing. But I DO at least know it is "there."

So, when it comes to things like Mastery of Life, the Universe and Everything ... you know, 42 and all that - at least relative to our little corner of the Solar System - I'd have to say that my little lettering scheme is not such a bad model after all for how each person's understanding of a given subject, matter, situation, etc. OVERLAPS with every OTHER person's understanding.

And so, while I may only have an intermediate and amateur understanding of levels O and P, respectively, there are plenty of other people all around me who have an EXPERT understanding of both of these levels, and then some.

To deny that this is true is absurd. To say that this is a matter purely of faith and of the heart, is also absurd. Blind faith is - exactly that.

A critic will aptly point out that my one-dimensional model is far to linear, and overly simplistic, but I do not claim it to be comprehensive, nor do I suggest that things are anywhere this simple. It's just something that hit me when I looked at this thread tonight, so I thought I'd share it.

The very REASON that I can say there are MASTERS, Mahatmas and Celestial Beings out there, of all shapes & sizes, and varying Orders ... is that on a very LOW END of the COSMIC SCALE (of Harmonies, friends, of MUSIC - the Music of the Spheres) ... I RESONATE.

We all do. However, imperfectly, we are each and every one of us a NOTE, and even a series of notes, in God's celestial symphony. And there are notes at the low end of the scale, notes in the middle, as well as notes at the upper ranges.

EVERY single note, at one point or another, is important in the grand scheme of things ... yet Theosophical teaching, and The Wisdom which I have studied (in whatever Tradition) emphasizes that not all notes are allowed to sound out an unchanging tone, with no variation in pitch, duration, etc.

A study of Hindu philosophy, including the three guna - tamas, rajas & sattva, or inertia, rhythm & order - is absolutely vital to understanding everything from the blossoming of the flower, to the flooding of the Nile, to the phylogeny & ontogony as taught in your Biology 101 class. Sure you can memorize all the stages of plant growth and cellular development, but if you do not realize that this is a mirror of exactly what happens when a new SOLAR SYSTEM is being born ... how will you also realize that this is the same process whereby a Human Soul beings its evolutionary Trek, completing it (upon this planet) with the coming into Christ as taught in Ephesians 4:13?

Either it begins to all fit together, even in a mosiac as simple and as simply beautiful as one prepared for you with crayons by your 3 yr old child ... or life forever remains a guessing game, and only so much empty-minded theology: mental masturbation at its greatest.

A simple faith (in the positive sense of optimism, hope) that on the other side of death we will find spiritual fulfilment - perhaps including peace, recompense, and resolution - is certainly a good thing, but so also is the direct experience of those who have "been there," so to speak, and come back to the body to tell about it. Does it really help if I point out, with all the certainly & conviction in the world, that most likely the entity we have met in an NDE or OOBE was NOT Jesus Christ? I dunno ...

But if you retort with something like, "How do you KNOW?" - all I can say is, wait and see. In the long run, it will not matter, because what's important is that for the person who has had the experience, an important step has been taken. If that person was asked to make a choice, and encouraged (as is often the case) to return to the body and to continue the work of the present incarnation, then it would actually do more harm than good - MUCH more harm - to try and point out that "oh, btw, that was your SOUL, not Jesus per se." I mean, that's not helpful now, is it?

You see? What good does MY understanding, MY intermediate proficiency at level K - or whatever - actually DO .... if I'm not USING it, to help other people, rather than forcing it down someone's throat, or just going around boasting about what I supposedly `KNOW'?

Another thought, concerning harmony:

It is as if, once all human understanding is taken into account, and synthesized, as one, great HARMONIC ... we will have EVERY single piece of Wisdom, knowledge, and accumulated experience, all vibrating together as ONE - so that from a far-off world, perhaps another planet, or maybe from the Spiritual level, in the case of a passing Cosmic Messenger, our little Earth will be heard to vibrating, singing OM (or any other sound which you feel best represents the human experience).

How sad, that if we are not extremely careful, the tone which is now sounding in the world of human events (as contrasted with Soul Potentials) ... may be forever silenced!

Some of the same kinds of knowledge, which reveal to us the secrets of the atom, the (lesser) mysteries regarding the spiritual worlds, and the hidden powers latent within every human being - which many people have begun to tap (or redevelop) - can be used for both Spiritual and selfish purposes.

It is not just a matter of having certain experiences, or even knowing, because one has been TOLD by a reliable source, that certain things exist. I do not have to be a high Initiate, or a Master, to act according to Goodwill, to practice Right Though, Right Action, Right Speech, in my daily life. And I do not have to sit and demand that the Universe bend down to prove to me that certain things exist ... in order to WORK for the change that I wish to see in the world.

The Teachings which I have studied, often use the expression, "Act as IF." And this, if I am not mistaken, is not far off from the WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) of much popularity among Christians. One problem, I have noticed, incidentally, is that clearly - many Christians just DO NOT KNOW ... WW, JD.

But for every Soul on the path, earnest aspiration, and heartfelt prayer, can and will lead to greater self-discovery, greater Spiritual discovery - and eventually, further empowerment to work toward serving God ... and this, first and foremost, means serving our fellow human beings. How can we serve each other, if there is no appreciation that each person IS A SOUL?

This is all tied together. And Z, fits neatly into A, just as every A, hold the full potential of Z. "I am the Alpha, and the Omega," Christ said, and this is perhaps one application of what He meant.

Love and Light,

~Andrew

 

[lunamoth]

Well said InLove and earl! I've missed you guys.

 

[Snoopy]

To some degree I think to much "false certainty" about what lays beyond our expriences is distracting from the spiritual journey-that's why I can appreciate Zen Buddhism which has historically more than any school of Buddhism eschewed (gesundheit) spending much time on such a topic and emphasizing what Ram Dass called the title of 1 of his books 30+ years ago "Be Here Now." earl

Indeed.

A central emphasis of Seung Sahn was to maintain “don’t know” mind. This enables us to more fully experience life as-it-is, with less of the clutter that we generate that turns reality into delusion.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

PS Bless you, earl.

 

[wil]

Remember Be Here Now...ah that caused quite a stir in my youth. Actually didn't cause....but accelerated, when Timothy Leary drops the gauntlet and one decides to exceed his number....wheee....

I look forward to taking many a trip around with you all... seems I've met a few in my lifetime that may be getting close to off of this ferris wheel....few being the operative word...

 

[Snoopy]

A quick comment
~Andrew

I guess all things must be relative.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

We could go through this point by point, but I think that the 'carbon footprint' of our combined posts would actually register somewhere!

Have you seen the break-up of the polar caps lately?

s.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====(^_^)====-----

InLove et all,

For those people interested in conditions of future races on future planets, Theosophy has information. For those people interested in conditions in the seven Heavens after death, Theosophy has information. However, the most important message Theosophy has is how to accelerate our progress along the Path. How to accelerate such progress is very much focused in the here and now. Also, I have found Theosophical advice on how to accelerate progress to be move complete, systematical, and helpful than any other philosophy I have seen so far.

 

[Thomas]

Have you seen the break-up of the polar caps lately?

s.

In my old Hermetic days, we used to say that future knowledge was frozen in the ice of the poles ... like that 'grren and pleasant land' accessible through the poles themselves ... that when the End draws nigh, the ice will melt to release all this knowledge, and there will be a feeding frenzy as every possibility, without discretion or distinction, tries to get 'used up' before the end ... ... in an orgy of 'clutching at straws'

Thomas

 

[Snoopy]

In my old Hermetic days, we used to say that future knowledge was frozen in the ice of the poles ... like that 'grren and pleasant land' accessible through the poles themselves ... that when the End draws nigh, the ice will melt to release all this knowledge, and there will be a feeding frenzy as every possibility, without discretion or distinction, tries to get 'used up' before the end ... ... in an orgy of 'clutching at straws'

Thomas

...that's probably why the Russians and Canadians have staked claims of late...

s.

 

[InLove]

Hi Andrew—

Thanks for your post. I don’t really know how to respond anymore. I have tried to show you how I agree with so much of what you say. But it seems to me that you just don’t realize it. Maybe because every now and then, I agree with someone else about this or that. Anyway, there have just been a few references you have made, directly or indirectly concerning the opinions I express (or the ones you think I hold?) that have been confusing to me.

For example, you say things like:

But if you retort with something like, "How do you KNOW?"

I can’t figure out if you are talking to me. But I assure you, a “retort” is not the spirit in which I have meant anything toward you. I simply asked what I think is a reasonable question. I have never dismissed your contributions as somehow lesser than anyone else’s, including my own. I’m just sorry that somehow maybe you got that impression.

It bugs me when people say, "it's a mystery, and we really don't know." Be honest. Use the personal pronoun. Say, I do not know. But do not assume that others don't.

Andrew, there are some things I know and some things I do not know. (There—is that better?). I am at a place in this life at the moment where I do feel it is the better part of Wisdom for me to acknowledge that there are both things I know and things I do not know. If I am to make the most of what it is I am given to do in this moment, at this time, then “I don’t know” is as honest as I can be. (It's like the "clutter" that Snoop referred to--for me, anyway) If someone else knows, great! Do you know?

You will not convince me that I did not float across the street during an out-of-body experience ... when I was 2 or 3. It cannot be done. I remain open to the possibility that I am in error regarding my understanding, or interpretation of the event. But, together with a handful of other experiences, and my 35 years to string them all together ... there are just some things that I KNOW.

Well, again—I don’t know if you are talking to me personally, but I never have and never will try to convince you or anyone else that they did not have an out-of-body experience or anything else along these lines. As I have said repeatedly, I have had my own kinds of experiences, so why would I dismiss yours? Have I ever once said that I do not believe you when it comes to your personal revelations and experiences?

And so does every one of us!

Thank you—yes. It is nice to hear that. It is nice to be acknowledged. I feel the same way.

You know I love you, and if my post seems strange, I apologize. Just trying to understand where it is that I apparently put you off. Surely it isn’t my trust in Christ? That can’t be it…that would not make sense coming from you, unless I have totally misunderstood you.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[InLove]

The vast majority of people do not remember their past lives. This is a good thing, because most of us are not ready to remember. Fortunately, it is said we will remember all of our past lives someday.

So do you remember your past lives, Nick? If so, I would be interested in hearing about them. (You may have already elaborated on this; if so, just a link to your writing would be sufficient.)

Some say that reincarnation and a belief in Christ as Redeemer (both personal and universal) cannot go hand-in-hand.

I agree!

May I ask why?

It has been that those who want to see Jesus will see Jesus, those who want to see Buddha will see Buddha, etc.

Good! Then I have a feeling that I will be seeing lots of folks.

As far as "karma" goes, I have a hard time thinking of it in much different terms than along the lines of "what goes around, comes around".

The phrase "what goes around, comes around" summarizes the idea of karma nicely.

But I suppose that if one were able to make certain choices between incarnations, then that would surely influence how that next "lifetime" would play out to a certain extent.

That is an important part of my belief system. I believe we make very important decisions between incarnations

.

So are you saying that even though we reap what we sow in terms of karma, we can choose to alter that by deliberately choosing to (for example) suffer greatly in a given lifetime in order to discharge some of what we would otherwise attract for many lifetimes to come?

But then, to think that there is a possibility of creating more negative karma is a bit daunting....

It is less daunting than the eternal Christian Hell.

Perhaps—of course, that would depend on what one means by “the eternal Christian Hell”. As I have stated before, not all Christians agree on what this means.

It is also less daunting than the Christian idea that we are not responsible for what we do.

That’s a new one for me. I am unaware of any Christian teaching that negates our responsibility for our choices. In fact, the Christ I know about is all about choices. Maybe you could expound?

Unfortunately, the Christian assurance makes no sense to me, which is why it is not a part of my belief system.

The assurance I speak of is the assurance that “God”, no matter how you choose to describe “Him” is not willing for anyone to be set apart from the Love and Wisdom of the Ages, that no one need be cast away.

When you say that "eternity" makes no sense to you, do you mean that you believe there is a time when all existence ends?

The answer to your question is quite complicated, so I will only give one aspect of the full answer. According to Theosophy, the universe is in its active state, which began with the Big Bang. Eventually, the entire universe will enter a state of rest (the Big Crunch), and everything (including us) will also enter a state of complete and total rest. All of our activity will cease for a very long time. So, according to Theosophy, even a state such as Hell must end at that time. The ramifications of an eternal Hell are much more unworkable than you realize.

Big Bang as in a random explosion of gases, or as in the Force of an organized universe full of natural principles and intuitive and procreative and recreative action?As I have stated before, I really have not tried to assign a lot of specifics to “an eternal Hell”, so therefore I haven’t spent lots of time trying to work that out.

InLove, now you can see how the Theosophical Hell is not a place of vengeful divine torture, but a place of burning off negativity that we have put upon ourselves.

Thanks—I was beginning to wonder! I didn’t think so, but it really does sound quite a bit like some Christian doctrines.

I do not see the similarity. Feel free to give examples.

Actually, I was referring back to our conversation in this thread where you pointed out that the Theosophical view was in part based upon the ideas of Dante’s Divine Comedy.

When I say "Love", I include " the aspect of "Wisdom" as well. To me, without Love, there is no Wisdom, and vice-versa.

I agree. Theosophy demands a person develop their critical thinking skills to a high level. Such critical-thinking skills are required (according to Theosoph) for us to move to the next level. (I see no such demand within most of Christianity.) Christianity says we merely accept one or two doctrines, and we are guaranted eternal bliss. Theosophy does not, and says believing in the ideas of simple-doctrine-acceptance and guaranted-eternal-bliss do not require much Wisdom at all. The requirement of high-critical-thinking skills in Theosophy, and the lack of such a requirement in Christianity is one of the biggest differences between the two philosophies.

Theosophy requires open-minded thinking. Theosophy requires critical-thinking. Tell most groups of Christians that their ideas do not make sense, and you will be criticized. Tell most groups of Theosophists that their ideas do not make sense, and you will be encouraged to follow your train of thought. When I say Theosophy has no dogma, I mean that I am not allowed to spoon-feed you ideas. Theosophy hates the very idea of blind faith. Theosophy forces you to chew on each idea, and only accept it when you are ready.

I must disagree with you when you say that “Christianity says we merely accept one or two doctrines, and we are guaranteed eternal bliss.” First of all, one must understand a doctrine before true acceptance can take place. So Christianity is no different than any other “belief system” in this way. Also, meditation on the message of the Christ has to do with learning of the nature of peace and how we can be a part of that. And the message of Christ is supposed to be one of hope. In it is also the concept that Life may be ultimately sustained, whether individually, collectively, or both. Are these issues ones that “simple minds” dwell upon? If so, then I suggest we are all simpletons, for don’t we all think about it?

Christianity is not supposed to be about blind faith. Faith, yes. Blind, no. In fact, the New Testament is full of references to the blindness of those who consider themselves wise beyond others. And I’d have to say that if there ever was an issue to “chew on”, that issue might actually be one of life beyond death, and certainly this idea is set forth in the Gospels if it was ever presented anywhere. So to present Christians as people who are not capable of critical thinking really seems based in misinformation. Certainly one can see just by reading right here in C-R that Christians are busy debating, discussing, asking questions, sharing experiences, agreeing, disagreeing….I wouldn’t call that a lack of thought, by any means. As far as “levels” of understanding go in Christianity, I do not believe that there is necessarily a roadmap or a heavenly chart or a degree plan that places one Christian’s experience over another. (Some Christians would disagree with this—there they go thinking again!)

According to Theosophy, there are those people who have qualified to go to the next level, yet choose not to go. Instead, they return to Earth to share their first-hand experiences as to "exactly how things work

Do these people identify themselves as such? Are these beings the founders and leaders of Theosophy? Do you know any? Are you one?

The only way we will know for certain is when we finally get there. Theosophy says a good Christian or a good Hindu is making just as much progress. (Sadly, Christianity does not agree.)

Again, while I appreciate your own knowledge of your belief system, and I acknowledge that there are indeed Christians who profess this, I still think that your view of Christianity as a whole is a bit limited. But I am sure that if you are on the path that is right for you, you will soon come to understand this. I look forward to the times when there will be more understanding between people. And just think—we are all part of that! It is through the opening of our minds and hearts toward one another where we may begin to witness these walls that inhibit our brotherhood start to tumble, one person at a time.

Also, You invited me to give some examples of how I think humanity misinterprets the message of Love. Well, all one really has to do is look around and see this. Wouldn’t you agree?

It is just that He is there for me if I want, and there for anyone who wants. His whole message is about acceptance, not rejection.

I am afraid this takes us back to the belief Mahatma Gandhi is burning in Hell because he chose not to follow Jesus.

How so, Nick? I don’t make the connection. Didn’t even Gandiji say something along the lines of “I am Hindu, I am Buddhist, I am Christian, I am Muslim, etc.?” I may have my quotes mixed up, but I still don’t understand the reasoning behind your response.

You are making great progress. I commend you on the great progress you have made so far.

Thank you.

Theosophy takes it a step farther. Theosophy says there are different kinds of people, so we need different kinds of religions. One type of religion will not for everyone. (Sadly, Christianity does not agree.)

Again, the Christian viewpoint is more diverse than I think you may realize.

It is just that once parts of that Truth are recognized, why would I throw those parts out and start all over again?

I do not see anyone asking you to throw out parts of Truth. Please feel free to give examples.

No, I don’t remember anyone asking me to do that, either. However, if we are all respecting of one another’s paths, then perhaps there is value in my own experience as it relates to that. Anyway, that really would be another conversation that might address several topics.

I hate to keep blaming my problems on "chemo-brain"...."

A lot of us have been going through an unusually large amount of bad karma recently. Hang in there, and keep posting. Keep making progress along the Path, too.

Oh? I hope everything is okay with you and yours? Thank you, I’m hanging in…progress can be painful!

The software at this Forum is extremely buggy, I have no idea why it keeps adding uncommanded carriage-returns.

I haven’t experienced that problem. What other programs are you running?

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Snoopy]

I am at a place in this life at the moment where I do feel it is the better part of Wisdom for me to acknowledge that there are both things I know and things I do not know.

The Unknown​

As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know. ​

- The poet Rumsfeld.​

s.​

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====(@_@)====-----

InLove, you said,

"So do you remember your past lives, Nick? If so, I would be interested in hearing about them."​

--> I remember a lifetime in Japan as a coolie. (This, no doubt, is why my ability to speak Japanese is so good. What else can explain such an ability?) There was also the time I was a monk in Tibet. By far my most memorable reincarnation was way out in the western Chinese desert as a roaming nomad. Now that was a hard life.

"Some say that reincarnation and a belief in Christ as Redeemer (both personal and universal) cannot go hand-in-hand. --> I agree! --> May I ask why?"​

--> The ideas of reincarnation and karma go hand in hand. I cannot see how karma and the forgiveness of sins can fit into the same belief system.

"Then I have a feeling that I will be seeing lots of folks."​

--> According to my belief system, Heaven is just an illusion we create for ourselves, so we can recuperate from time on Earth. Make it a good one!

"So are you saying that even though we reap what we sow in terms of karma, we can choose to alter that by deliberately choosing to (for example) suffer greatly in a given lifetime in order to discharge some of what we would otherwise attract for many lifetimes to come?"​

--> Yes. The ability to take on larger-than-normal amounts of bad karma in a particular lifetime is a key part of my belief system.

(1) I believe this is something everyone will choose to do (in this lifetime or a subsequent one), before they reach Nirvana.

(2) Some people think performing self-mortification will achieve the same effect. It will not.


(3) One of the key points of my belief system is that a person must get rid of all their bad karma before entering Nirvana. The way I see it, there can be no other way.

"...that would depend on what one means by “the eternal Christian Hell”. As I have stated before, not all Christians agree on what this means."​

--> What is eternal Hell to you?

"I am unaware of any Christian teaching that negates our responsibility for our choices."​

--> I believe Christianity teaches the forgiveness of sin. If a person can commit a crime and then be forgiven, then they escape responsibility. (Karma allows no such escaping of responsibility.) Is this how you see the Christian teaching?

"When you say that "eternity" makes no sense to you, do you mean that you believe there is a time when all existence ends?"​

--> This takes us into a deep and profound topic. I will keep my response brief, and respond in this way: It has been said the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite. The idea of eternity gets into the infinite. Things have been going on for a long time, and will continue to go on for a long time -- we humans (Theosophy says) cannot comprehend what is at the end of those two extremes.

I would like to throw out this additional idea. In my belief system, this universe is only one universe in a long, long chain of universes. Think about how long this universe will last. (Gadzooks!) Now, think about conditions in, say, ten universes from now (More gadzooks!) According to your theory, in that future universe, people entering Hell today will still be in Hell at that time. Such an idea is unthinkable to me, and therefore is not a part of my belief sytem.


It is said we cannot comprehend infinity, but it sure is fun to try.

"Big Bang as in [1] a random explosion of gases, or as in [2] the Force of an organized universe full of natural principles and intuitive and procreative and recreative action?"​

--> [2]

"I really have not tried to assign a lot of specifics to “an eternal Hell”, so therefore I haven’t spent lots of time trying to work that out."​

--> I have.

"Thanks—I was beginning to wonder! I didn’t think so, but it really does sound quite a bit like some Christian doctrines."​

--> There are many similarities between Christianity and Theosophy, more than most people realize. Unfortunately, we tend to focus on the differences rather than the similarities.

"When I say "Love", I include " the aspect of "Wisdom" as well. To me, without Love, there is no Wisdom, and vice-versa."​

--> According to Christianity, can an un-wise person do all the things Christianity advices, enter Heaven, and still be unwise? The way I see it, this is very much a possibility. (Such a method of entering Theosophical Nirvana is impossible.)

"I must disagree with you when you say that “Christianity says we merely accept one or two doctrines, and we are guaranteed eternal bliss.” First of all, one must understand a doctrine before true acceptance can take place."​

--> You lost me on this one. A person merely needs to accept Jesus as their personal savior, and they are guaranteed a place in eternal Heaven -- is this not the Christian teaching?

"So Christianity is no different than any other “belief system” in this way. Also, meditation on the message of the Christ has to do with learning of the nature of peace and how we can be a part of that. And the message of Christ is supposed to be one of hope. In it is also the concept that Life may be ultimately sustained, whether individually, collectively, or both. Are these issues ones that “simple minds” dwell upon? If so, then I suggest we are all simpletons, for don’t we all think about it?"​

--> We are getting into two different topics here. (1) The absolute minimum required by Christianity to get into eternal Heaven. (2) Things we can do to "bring ourselves closer to God". All of the things you list here seem to be of (2) but not (1). My focus is on (1) and I choose to leave (2) to another discussion at another time.

"So to present Christians as people who are not capable of critical thinking really seems based in misinformation."​

--> I am not saying that. I am saying that a person who has not yet achieved critical thinking can still achieve eternal Heaven at the end of this life.

"Certainly one can see just by reading right here in C-R that Christians are busy debating, discussing, asking questions, sharing experiences, agreeing, disagreeing….I wouldn’t call that a lack of thought, by any means."​

--> It shows that people here are making intellectual progress, which I think it is a very good thing. However, the key issue here is not that people are making intellectual progress. The way I see it, intellectual progress is not required to get into the eternal Christian Heaven.


What, then, are the absolute minimum qualifications to get into the eternal Christian Heaven? I believe there is only one -- accept Jesus as your personal saviour. Am I wrong? (I suppose Baptism is also required, but I am not sure about that.)

"Do these people identify themselves as such?"​

--> If asked, yes. They never advertise.

"Are these beings the founders and leaders of Theosophy?"​

--> Yes.

"Do you know any?"​

--> No.

"Are you one?"​

--> No. (Ha. I am not quite qualified for Nirvana just yet....)

"I still think that your view of Christianity as a whole is a bit limited."​

--> That is why we are having this discussion. Actually, I think this discussion is going quite well. You and I are showing our willingness to be open-minded with each other, and I am actually enjoying this. It is rare that a Christian and non-Christian like you and I have such a frank, open, positive, and educational discussion as this.

"I look forward to the times when there will be more understanding between people."​

--> It has been said that, in a few centuries from now, a large number of people will become psychic. At that time, all of this confusion will disappear. I am very much looking forward to it.

"And just think—we are all part of that! It is through the opening of our minds and hearts toward one another where we may begin to witness these walls that inhibit our brotherhood start to tumble, one person at a time."​

--> I, too, am thrilled that many of us are helping each other accelerate our progress along the Path.

"You invited me to give some examples of how I think humanity misinterprets the message of Love. Well, all one really has to do is look around and see this. Wouldn’t you agree?"​

--> You lost me on that one. I am not sure what you are referring to.

"Didn’t even Gandiji say something along the lines of “I am Hindu, I am Buddhist, I am Christian, I am Muslim, etc.?” I may have my quotes mixed up, but I still don’t understand the reasoning behind your response."​

--> Gandhi made it clear he was in awe of Jesus' messsage, that he followed ideas that exist in Christianity, but he did not choose Jesus as his savior. I see that as the crucial difference. Can a person get into the Christian Heaven without choosing Jesus as their personal savior?

"...if we are all respecting of one another’s paths, then perhaps there is value in my own experience as it relates to [Truth]."​

--> I definitely believe there is value in your view of Truth. The value of an open-minded and respectful inter-religious discussion is that we can learn from each other. I believe we are doing that here.

"I haven’t experienced that [software] problem. What other programs are you running?"​

--> The problem is within the Indent Function, a function most people here do not use. You use the Quote Function, so you are not affected.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====(@_@)====-----

InLove, thank you for the detailed, two-part post. I commend you on your diligence in maintaining this inter-religious discussion. There is great value in what you are doing. You asked,

"Do you think that your more difficult lives are the ones more easily remembered?"​

--> No, I think it is more a matter of which ones are most important. It has also been said we do not remember many past lives, because we are not ready to face what we have been through.

"I cannot see how karma and the forgiveness of sins can fit into the same belief system. --> I can. But I can understand why many people do not, and that is okay."​

--> How do both of them fit into your belief system?

"...if you told me what you think "sin" means. I realize it may not be a part of your belief system, but do you have a definition that you would be willing to reference?"​

--> No, I do not. I was merely using the word as it is used in Christianity. In my system, there is no such thing as "sin".

"By illusion, do you mean that we make up our own ideas about what Heaven is?"​

--> Yes. We know best what kind of recuperation we need, so we are allowed to construct an illusion that best gives us recuperation. One of the great things about this time is, we can go back, find a failure that occured in physical life, and re-create it in our "Heaven" so that, this time, it is a success.

"What do you call this recuperation time?"​

--> It is technically referred to as Devachan.

"Where is it and how is this recuperation time spent?"​

--> It is a commonly-held teaching of orthodox religions that Hell is geographically located below us, and Heaven is geographically located above us. As it turns out, some Theosophcial writers say this is correct.

"People find their own level on the astral plane, much in the same way as objects floating in the ocean do. This does not mean that they cannot rise and fall at will, but that if no special effort is made they come to their level and remain there. Astral matter gravitates towards the center of the earth just as physical matter does; both obey the same general laws." (The Inner Life, p. 156)​

People of the lower astral sub-planes (Hell), then, generally reside below the surface of the Earth. The same is true of Heaven as a level relatively less-dense "astral" material that floats up to a level above the surface of the Earth. This explains the orthodox religious teaching of Hell being below us (and Heaven being above). (As parts of the Earth are of great heat and pressure, this is also another connection to the idea of Hell as a hot place.)

Regarding the idea of Heaven as an illusion, I would like to share the story of a man spending time near the top of the Heaven/Hell continuum (you would call it a high level within Purgatory). The important thing about this story is, the man built his house out of his imagination — it is not a physical house at all.

"He seemed to be living in a house that was just exactly the kind of house he used to picture in imagination as the ideal house he would like to have. Of course this was a pleasant kind of thought-form he had unconsciously created. He also said he was beginning to have a curious sort of feeling, as though he were getting lighter. It was quite a pleasant feeling, and he thought he had been told that it betokened some impending change that would involve his translation to some superior condition. His house was a country-house with gardens and flowers, grass and trees, though they did not seem to want any attending to. He spent a great deal of time in the garden, thinking pleasantly of bygone times, and visited by people he had known — his father and mother amongst them. The time just glided by. There was no night, no sense of being tired. He had no wants." (A. P. Sinnett, In the Next World, p. 58)​

I have also heard of another man who actually built up an entire house in Purgatory, brick by brick. No one told him it was an illusion, and that he could have built the entire house in an instant.

"The ability to take on larger-than-normal amounts of bad karma in a particular lifetime is a key part of my belief system. --> So there are those who have done this and it has led them to enter Nirvana?"​

--> Yes. I would correct your statement, and say it has accelerated their entry into Nirvana. According to my belief system, all of us will eventually enter Nirvana — some just sooner than others.

"And there are those who have done this, but who have willingly held themselves back from Nirvana for the sake of others? Am I understanding you correctly?"​

--> Exactly. This is the greatest sacrifce anyone can make, and this is an important concept in present-day Mahayana Buddhism and Theosophy.

"I believe this is something everyone will choose to do (in this lifetime or a subsequent one), before they reach Nirvana. --> Will it be in part due to actions of others who have shown the way?"​

--> I think my quote refers to the accelerating of our burning-off of bad karma, thereby accelerating our entry into Nirvana. Technically, the answer to your question is yes — There are those who will show the way, when we are ready.

"Must everyone [get rid of all their bad karma before entering Nirvana] in exactly the same way?"​

--> No. It can be done in many ways. It does not matter how it is done, as long as it is done.

"While there are some Christians who subscribe to the idea that there is a literal firepit to which those individuals who "reject Christ" will be forever condemned, I think you will find that the majority would describe "hell" in terms of "separation from God"."​

--> I find this marvelous, because I believe more in line with fundamental Christians. I have just heard one man describe his Hell as being in a thick, black, suffocating oil-like substance — a very unpleasent experience that seems to last for eternity.

"Like most, I relate the idea of Hell to the Jewish idea of "gehenna", which was an historical trash heap outside the walls of Jerusalem into which refuse was taken (perhaps it was also burned-not sure). There is actually quite a bit of reasonable evidence which points to translation boo-boos and even pop-sensationalism on the part of Christian interpretation, and that the early Christian writers were more in tune with the Jewish meaning."​

--> Fascinating. Again, I must say I believe in a real Hell. (I merely say the circumstances that take us there are different than those explained in Christianity.)

"Is it a guarantee that at least part of one’s spirit may continue on? Actually, yes—that is part of the promise."​

--> This sounds like I have already qualified to enter the Christian Heaven.

"...even though [Gandhi] did not use the terminology "personal Savior", he and Jesus of Nazareth would have understood each other very well."​

--> So you think Gandhi is not in Hell?

"And while these are my own thoughts on the matter, I am certain I am not the only Christian who seriously considers them."​

--> I hope not! The very purposes of these discussions is to get people to consider ideas they have not yet considered. (Theosophy is full of such ideas.)

"Christianity calls for an accounting, one way or another."​

--> So Jesus does not have the power to forgive sins?

"It would be impossible for me to agree with every theological concept in the Christian religion...."​

--> I am glad you do not. You take personal responsibility for your belief system, which is something most people do not do.

"... by focusing on what Jesus taught and did according to the Gospels, we may better understand the concept of mercy."​

--> This sounds similar to the Theosophical and Buddhist concept of Compassion.

"How can one know the value of forgiveness if one is unwilling or unable to receive it?"​

--> I can see a need for humans to forgive. I see no need for a God to forgive. Which type of forgiveness are you talking about?

"Negative karma is pretty sticky stuff, right?"​

--> Yes, very much.

"According to universal principles, it doesn’t just go away without some action being taken to reverse it."​

--> Exactly.

"If I forgive someone for a crime he or she committed against me, does that affect them or just me?"​

--> It effects both of you. You are the biggest beneficiary, but the perpetrator also benefits, in that peace is restored.


I need to emphasize this point: We need to separate human forgiveness from karmic forgiveness. You can forgive (and you should), but karma does not. I see no reason to even think that karmic forgiveness happens.

"...I believe we are all interconnected—and not just us, but all things."​

--> I do too. I believe we are more interconnected than you realize. We are very close to realizing our true interconnectedness, which is thet very definition of Nirvana. Nirvana is said to be a place when separateness ends. I become you, and you become me. I am very much looking forward to it.

"Is [Jesus] the only one? Well, He is certainly unique."​

--> You are side-stepping the issue. Is Jesus is the only way?

"He didn’t go around saying that Buddha was a bad guy or that Judaism was evil or that when Muhammed came along that I was supposed to hate him or his followers. No, no, no! He did NOT!"​

--> You are describing Christians that I will not even talk to.

"In my opinion, they do hurt the reputation of Christ—but guess what? I believe God knows that many of them just don’t yet understand, and that yes, there is forgiveness still in the works."​

--> I guess we can just agree to disagree. I see no such forgiveness from bad karma, nor do I see a need for it, nor do I see any wisdom in it.

"...the possibility of mercy on "His" part is a subscription to the Wisdom of Love."​

--> On the other hand, any "sin", no matter how small, causes disharmony in the entire universe. When the universe is thrown out of harmony, the possibility of me being allowed to put it back into harmony is a subscription to the Wisdom of Love."

"Hopefully, after reading what I have written here so far about the concept of hell, you will see that my theory is not exactly what you may have thought it was."​

--> I see Hell as being just as terrible as they say. I just do not see it as eternal.

"...I feel it is important that people understand that most Christians really are not the mindless, uncaring, cloud-sitting lot that is so often caricatured (although cloud-sitting might be fun, and I wouldn’t like to completely count it out, lol!)."​

--> It is true that many of my fellow non-Christians have a very bad opinion of Christianity, and by extention, all Christians. Sadly, I must say they are justified in their negative feelings.

"...according to most Christians, we will have eternity to learn about everything there is to learn. No deadlines ever again!"​

--> That is an interesting difference between your and my belief system. I see us facing deadlines for many universes to come. (I see the continual chances to improve ourselves, and continually-required benchmarks as a good thing, not a bad thing, as you do.)

"I believe that the absolute minimum to get into the eternal Christian Heaven is what Jesus of Nazareth was recorded as saying: Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself."​

--> Most Theosophists accept the idea of a Diety of the universe but reject the idea of an Almighty God. (The difference may seem trivial, but it is an important one.) Your definition, then, condemns all Theosophists and Buddhists to Hell. That is unfortunate.

"It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which I believe to be important. Is this limited to Christians? Ouch—I may have to go dig out my big red "H" for heretic and wear it for saying so, but no, I don’t believe it is."​

--> I believe this Baptism idea came from an Ancient Wisdom teaching that has been so turned around over the centuries that it is now misleading and corrupted. However, I think you and I have more in common regarding this topic than you realize.

"I do realize that some of what I said may sound a little like preaching. I hope you know that this is not what I am trying to do. It’s just kind of impossible to talk about our beliefs without, erm, well, saying what they are."​

--> That is OK. This is called celebrating our differences. As long as it is done in a positive way, it is a good thing.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====(@_@)====-----

InLove,

I see you made a long post, I responded, and it seems you removed your post. Is everything OK?

 

[InLove]

Hi Nick--

I have no idea what happened to my posts! I didn't remove them. I hope they come back, as I did spend quite a bit of time on them!

I haven't had time to read your response yet, but I will, and thanks.

Judging from the title of a thread in the feedback forum, it looks as if mine were not the only posts that have suddenly disappeared in the past few hours.

Gee--I hope they come back. If not, I think I have mine backed up, as I put them in a Word Doc. first. So if they don't, I will re-post them so that our thread doesn't look so wierd...

Looking forward to reading your response sometime this evening....

Edited by me to add: I'm copying and pasting yours now, just in case it disappears, too!

Edited again to add: My response to Snoopy is gone, too! I wonder if my private messages made it through, as I did send one out. Snoop? Did you get it?

InPeace,
InLove