Do you reject original Sin?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Thomas,

Thanks for the great post which I'm still pondering.

I'm having trouble conceptualizing physical human existence without the ability to discriminate between good and evil. Without the ability to utilize what you referred to as "self knowledge:, ie. "discrimination, distinction, separation, individuation..." how could we even function in the physical? Perhaps we could be like angels or something, living in the quantum flow, but it's hard to conceptualize a physical existence without the accompanying "illusion" of individuation.

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

Further, since we're all (theoretically) flawed by virtue of being human, I was thinking that one would have to adopt a permanent mindset of repentance in order to live in submission to God's will.

I think I understand what you are saying, but it seems to me that if one was in a constant state of repentence, it would be like a life of groveling and fear, or anxiety. I don't think that's what the Christian life is about. Repentence is 'getting real' about what stands between us and God, which to me means in practical terms what stands between us and loving each other.

 

[lunamoth]

Thomas,

Thanks for the great post which I'm still pondering.

I'm having trouble conceptualizing physical human existence without the ability to discriminate between good and evil. Without the ability to utilize what you referred to as "self knowledge:, ie. "discrimination, distinction, separation, individuation..." how could we even function in the physical? Perhaps we could be like angels or something, living in the quantum flow, but it's hard to conceptualize a physical existence without the accompanying "illusion" of individuation.

Chris

Exactly. You can't conceptualize it...the act of thinking at all requires discrimination, dualism.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I think I understand what you are saying, but it seems to me that if one was in a constant state of repentence, it would be like a life of groveling and fear, or anxiety. I don't think that's what the Christian life is about. Repentence is 'getting real' about what stands between us and God, which to me means in practical terms what stands between us and loving each other.

I guess I'm differentiating between remorse and repentance. I'm thinking that while remorse may be the catalyst to repentance, repentance is the active turning away from that which brings remorse. I'm kind of thinking of what Paul said about dying to self daily so that Christ lives within. I don't think he meant that he does it, like, once a day- perhaps in the morning when he takes his vitamins. And obviously he doesn't think that once is enough since he says "daily." Maybe it goes along with praying "without ceasing." Being always actively engaged in repentance and prayer.

Just my musings.

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

I guess I'm differentiating between remorse and repentance. I'm thinking that while remorse may be the catalyst to repentance, repentance is the active turning away from that which brings remorse. I'm kind of thinking of what Paul said about dying to self daily so that Christ lives within. I don't think he meant that he does it, like, once a day- perhaps in the morning when he takes his vitamins. And obviously he doesn't think that once is enough since he says "daily." Maybe it goes along with praying "without ceasing." Being always actively engaged in repentance and prayer.

Just my musings.

Chris

I agree with that...and pray without ceasing. It's about living a life in a deliberate manner too, and one that always points to God. It is our actions which make our faith alive, and which bring about the reconciliation of the world. I think that's what' you meant about the KOG and the golden rule. If by repentence you mean transformation I agree completely. My prayers go with my life, repentence, thanksgiving, intercession, and praise.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Yes, the Kingdom. I'm fascinated by that concept.

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

Yes, the Kingdom. I'm fascinated by that concept.

Chris

The Kingdom of God is one of my favorites. I think I started a thread a long time ago...not sure that it went anywhere.

The KOG. It's not what you expect.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

You might like this Laurie. It's an online English translation of Leo Tolstoy's classic of Christian anarchism The Kingdom of God is Within You- Christianity Not As A Mystic Religion But As A New Theory of Life , published in 1894. Leo Tolstoy - The Kingdom of God is Within You

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

You might like this Laurie. It's an online English translation of Leo Tolstoy's classic of Christian anarchism The Kingdom of God is Within You- Christianity Not As A Mystic Religion But As A New Theory of Life , published in 1894. Leo Tolstoy - The Kingdom of God is Within You

Chris

Thank you Chris.

I read this by Tolstoy and greatly enjoyed it. I don't agree with throwing out the Mystery, but I am in many ways a Tolstoy Christian.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Chris —

I'm having trouble conceptualizing physical human existence without the ability to discriminate between good and evil.

I don't think we weren't supposed to have that capacity ... the fact that God warned the Primordial Couple is evidence that they did ... He just meant, "Know the difference, but don't go there... " ... so what do we do ...

Without the ability to utilize what you referred to as "self knowledge:, ie. "discrimination, distinction, separation, individuation..." how could we even function in the physical?

A trick one ... but I look at the Passion in another, very different Garden (Gethsemane) ... "thy will, not my will, be done."

... maybe, tragically, Adam and Eve just dropped their guard for a moment? Origen believed that souls just became satiated with the Divine Plenitude ... like snowblindness ... but, I wonder, what is it in man that has Charlie Chaplin standing next to Arnie Schwartzewhatsis and Arne says "Don't touch that," and you just know what CC's gonna do...?

Perhaps we could be like angels or something, living in the quantum flow,

That's it! Living in the flow of Love (or ist that luuu-rr-ve? I hope not!) ... but yes ... just go with it ...

... I've done a little bit of sailing, so this balmy evening, on a 30 foot Broads gaff-rigged yacht, the sun was setting, the wind dropped, the sail was hanging with just a whisper of a breeze, I was the last one on the water, all the yachts were moored up along a staithe (a cutting, like a canal), not a ripple on the lake, and us just moseying along. I turned into the staithe, and could see a space at the very top, passed all the other boats ... I gave my partner the helm (not a sailor) and said 'just hold it there til I say, then pull it towards you' and walked up to the bow, no rush, no panic, all the time in the world, took the line, slid passed all the other (panic-looking) yachts, slowing all the time, reached the head of the staithe moving at what seemed like inches per minute ... stepped ashore and took a turn round the bollard, said 'now' with a nod, and walked back (enough headway still to answer to the helm, which began to tuck the stern in to the bank), took the stern line off the rail where I'd hung it, and a turn round a stern bollard brought us to a stop ...

... closest thing to heaven on earth, ever ... never thought about any of it ... just did it ... it came naturally ... I was in synch with it all ... not my will, just working with the wind and water, the evening and the land ... the will of nature ... she called the shots ... I mean, I could have turned on the motor ... but I trusted in no surprises, and just knew what to do ... living in the Divine Quantum would be just like that, I reckon ...

(The next day I lost my hat overboard, and try as I might, never managed to fetch up near enough to get it back. Doh! Another shattered dream!)

Truly, the trick of living in the moment, is knowing that we are actually part of the moment, not something outside, trying to get in ... and just settling to that and not expecting the moment to be something like a Hollywood musical.

Life is a mystical experience ... the trouble is we spend half our lives waiting for an angel to turn up and say 'Ooh look, he's having a mystical experience," and the other half asleep to what's happening ...

but it's hard to conceptualize a physical existence without the accompanying "illusion" of individuation.

That's because it is real. The 'illusion' is in the notion that we are outside of it.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

The word 'repent' is a translation of the Greek verb metanoeō which means 'change of heart' — we've discussed metanoia before, I think ... it's quite a concept in Christian theology.

But to go on repenting, once you've had a change of heart, is a bit like living in the past, and is often unhealthy, producing an obsequious Uriah Heap-like character "Your very 'umble servant, Mr Pip!" all wringing hands and bowing and scraping ... piety, when false, is a form of self-abuse, which is both satisfying, and dissatisfying, at the same time ...

That's not to mean we dismiss the past ... but the wide-eyed born-again "I used to be a sinner, but now I'm saved" is a bit OTT - let's face it, I used to wet my nappies, but then I grew up, it's not something I make a big deal of telling everyone ("Hey, I've still got some, d'ya wanna see?") but nor do I pretend I came into the world walking, talking and toilet trained.

Addicts who've dried out rarely go round telling everyone they used to be an addict, unless they;re craving attention ...

So I was a cradle Catholic. Then I wandered off. Then I found my way home. Now I try and get on with it, and think, like my mate who was knocked off his motorbike last week, 'there, but for the grace of God... '
(he's recovering, by the way, having smashed kneecap, hands... )

So repentance, and remorse, ongoing, has its place ... and I suggest its place is quietly, privately, and in prayer, balanced with a touch of 'thank God I found you/you found me'.

As far as the world goes, just get on with it.

Thomas

 

[Muslimwoman]

I'm thinking in a whole bunch of different directions and having trouble focusing my thoughts.

Hi Chris

Always a good thing to mentally explore. If I may I would like to make a couple of personal observations, having been on both sides of the fence (although neither side may agree with me, they are just my personal ramblings).

I don't think we weren't supposed to have that capacity ... the fact that God warned the Primordial Couple is evidence that they did ... He just meant, "Know the difference, but don't go there... " ... so what do we do ...

For me, Thomas explains the difference between repentance and submission very well here (you must make a brilliant dinner guest Thomas, if you are ever in egypt and like spicey food ). As a Muslim I have submitted to G-d. That is that I try every day to live my life according to the teachings of Allah. However, there are times I slip from that path (vanity, greed, hatred, etc gets the better of me) and for that I must repent. I do not feel the need to be in a permanent state of repentance but I do feel the need to be in a permanent state of submission.

But to go on repenting, once you've had a change of heart, is a bit like living in the past, and is often unhealthy,
Addicts who've dried out rarely go round telling everyone they used to be an addict, unless they;re craving attention ...

Again Thomas makes a point I can pick up on. When I became a Muslim my prior sins were forgiven and from that moment I began my submission to G-d. Now the human mind doesn't let go so easily, so my prayers, for the longest time, were all about my sins prior to my conversion. I cannot describe the fear and shame in my heart and mind for the things I had done prior to submitting to G-d. I had to learn to let go of the past. I had to repent for those days and move on, live today and improve on the person I am. My conversion was my repentance of those days, so I had to let go and live in the moment.

It took me a long time to realise that G-d is All Merciful and He knows that I was lost during those years. It was not until I was able to see this and let go of the past that I became able to truly submit to G-d. Alhamdolillah I have now let go and can wake every day and say today I submit to G-d. I see my submission as accepting that I do not control my life, G-d does but that I can affect my life by my choices. If I choose today to 'ignore' my submission because I want to follow my desires (eat that bacon sandwich or fail to say hello when someone says hello to me, whatever), then I will have to answer for that sin. This is where repentance comes in, when I do sin I must repent, not just say oops sorry and do it again tomorrow but truly feel ashamed of my behaviour and try harder next time to resist temptation.

G-d has given me very few instructions, of course people then heap loads more on me but my submission to G-d is about the few instructions He has given me and they are the ones I must follow. To submit to G-d I must accept those few instructions as rules carved in stone and work hard every day to obey. Of course sometimes I struggle and then I must repent but my submission is also about the good deeds. The days when I notice the green fields, the blue sky, the laughter of a child and remember to thank G-d for those things. The days I wake up and realise I am blessed with good health and say thank you. The days my hubby really gets on my nerves and I remember how blessed I am to have a hubby that loves me (okay still struggling with that one, my usual reaction is to fight with him not say thank you - oops but am working on it). Of course then, during my prayers I feel ashamed that I was not grateful for the love of my husband and I repent for my pettiness.

It is one of the good things about praying 5 times a day, it keeps your submission in your mind and is a constant reminder of your need to submit to G-d. That is not to say I do not have choices or that I must spend my entire life praying. One example would be shopping for clothes, I do not 'shop for G-d' but am aware of my submission when choosing clothes.

Sorry if I have rambled, although you should be used to it by now. So that is my take on the difference between repentance and submission, hope you understand what I am struggling to say.

Salaam
Sally

 

[Thomas]

I do not feel the need to be in a permanent state of repentance but I do feel the need to be in a permanent state of submission.

Oh well said, and right on the nail! The above and what follows is a delight, by the way ... submission does not mean sorrow ... like an athlete needs to be in a permanent state of training ... or a samurai in a permanent state of awareness ... or a Buddhist in mindfulness ... or a Christian in prayer ...

Submission ... I wonder does submission as a permanent state render the person 'a body of prayer'? Now you've said it, I know instinctively I want to explore it ... any pointers from Islam you can give me would be a gift.

If I'm ever in Egypt, I'll let you know! I'd love to be a guest at your table, but just so you know, I don't like cheese (is that rude, to say in advance?).

Thomas

 

[Muslimwoman]

Oh well said, and right on the nail!

Thank you Thomas I was starting to get so worried that I clearly understand nothing of others faith so perhaps did not understand my own relationship with G-d as well. Perhaps I am doing something right then, alhamdolillah.

Submission ... I wonder does submission as a permanent state render the person 'a body of prayer'? Now you've said it, I know instinctively I want to explore it ... any pointers from Islam you can give me would be a gift.

I shall try to find a scholars answer to this but shall as usual talk off the top of my head and give you my own thoughts. It is a very interesting question but I would have to say no, purely because we are taught that the times we sin we are not Muslim and of course we all sin. Certainly I would say the idea of submission is to be 'a body of prayer' but that we all fail to really achieve that state. I have just contradicted myself - oops. So the answer must be YES, the state of submission is to be, in all deeds and thoughts, a body of prayer but we simply fail to achieve that state. Hmmm, must work on that one.

If I'm ever in Egypt, I'll let you know! I'd love to be a guest at your table, but just so you know, I don't like cheese (is that rude, to say in advance?).

Not rude at all, no cheese it is. If you ever get over I will make mashi (spiced rice stuffed in cabbage leaves, it is yummy although rather fattening), beef in spicy sauce and ..... erm can't pronounce the name but it is potatoes baked with salsa, garlic and onion. Don't worry we will supply the breath mints.

Salaam
Sally

 

[mee]

The Kingdom of God is one of my favorites. I think I started a thread a long time ago...not sure that it went anywhere.

The KOG. It's not what you expect.

DANIEL 2;44 It is quite true to say that the kingdom of God is not what most people expect, in fact most are in opposition to the heavenly kingdom of God , but then there are those who are waving their symbolic palm branches to welcome the newly installed king of Gods kingdom ,Daniel 7;13-14 and they are a GREAT CROWD from all nations revelation 7;9-10

 

[mee]

Yes, the Kingdom. I'm fascinated by that concept.

Chris

yes so am i ,Daniel 2;44 looking to this kingdom is the thing to do because it means that we will be on the right side when it takes action. and holding an intense interest in that heavenly kingdom means that our focus will be in the right place

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I should think you would be fascinated with the Kingdom Mee!

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

But as much as I love and respect Jesus (pbuh) as an amazing Prophet of G-d, I do not accept him as the Son of G-d. So surely by default that means, to a Christian, I cannot enter heaven?

No, it means you can't get to the Father, until you go through the Son. That is what Christianity touts. Imagine walking through the streets of heaven, but never getting to visit with the Father of all...until one goes through the "mediator", that is the Son.

It is so nice to hear someone want a humble job and not wanting to be up there helping to run heaven. By the way if a strange woman turns up, with some rather confused ideas and says "hey you got the job then", please see if you can sneak the gates open.

Hey, WAIT! Gate keeping is important!

My Grandma used to tell me (lol), that if the gates aren't open, Mary (Miriam), is want to leave a window open for some to sneak in...

Considering what she did at the wedding of Cana, I suspect she could get away with that too...

v/r

Q

 

[Muslimwoman]

No, it means you can't get to the Father, until you go through the Son. That is what Christianity touts. Imagine walking through the streets of heaven, but never getting to visit with the Father of all...until one goes through the "mediator", that is the Son.

Oh I see, thank you for explaining. I would just be so thankful if I am allowed to sit in the broom cupboard or a damp cellar would do, got to be better than the other hot place.

My Grandma used to tell me (lol), that if the gates aren't open, Mary (Miriam), is want to leave a window open for some to sneak in...

Considering what she did at the wedding of Cana, I suspect she could get away with that too...

May G-d bless her for her love of people, I'll look for the window.

What did she do at the wedding of Cana?

 

[Quahom1]

The idea of Original Sin is surely that we are born with a blot (I believe that is how you worded it). So are you saying that people are not accountable for that blot until later life? Perhaps you could give me the Bible verses so I can read up on it.

Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” Exodus 20:5 declares, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." Do these Scriptures contradict each other?

The difference between Ezekiel 18:20 and Exodus 20:5 is that while Exodus 20:5 is speaking of consequences, Ezekiel 18:20 is speaking of punishment. Exodus 20:5 is saying that the consequences of a man’s sins can be felt generations later. Ezekiel 18:20 is saying that sons should not be punished for their father’s sins. God does not hold us accountable for the sins of our parents, but we sometimes suffer as a result of the sins our parents committed. Hence we suffer from the sins of Adam and Eve, but are not held accountable for the sins they commited...only for our own.

Please explain to me. During our lives we sin and must, of course, answer for each sin. So do you believe we also have to answer for original sin as well as our own sins? I accept that people believe I cannot go to heaven because I was never baptised and therefore cannot be saved but for the sake of discussion, would I have to answer for both?

Again, who said you can't or won't go to Heaven? As to your second point, original sin means you are born fallen (flawed). Being not perfect, one needs to rely upon the perfection that is God to get us through life and back to Him. However, that which we do while in this world is something we are accountable for (conscious choice).

We will answer for that.

v/r

Q