Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives

[Quahom1]

Let this also be known that the holy prophet forbade wife beating at one point of time. The prophet also advised a women not to marry a person who was a wife beater. The admonition is permitted only when a wife shows arrogance in the matters of faith and not for any other purpose.

In Christianity, the rule is to let the unbelieving "spouse" go, IF he/she chooses to go, but if not then to keep the marriage whole and live the example so by example the unbelieving spouse may come to the faith...there is no beating allowed with spouses...only errant children.

 

[madeinrussia89]

I was kidding about lightly beating, but generally women don't want to have sexual relations with someone we're disgusted with.

I personally wouldn't hesistate to refuse him (but not on a regular basis), but that's just me. And if it does ruin his day, then he will know what it feels like to the woman.

He could, eventually, get violent because of a lot of the pain welling up inside. Or worse still . . . cheat on you with another woman. A good way to sabotage a relationship. A benefit may be that it could set you free from the man you don't love anymore.

I absolutely agree that it's an excellent way to sabotage a relationship, or whatever is left of one.

Up until an hour ago I believed she was a woman. I had felt something faintly feminine in her posts until then. Something about the way madeinrussia expressed its views. Then when I was reading the posts in this forum, wasn't so sure anymore. I think she started to become subtle there. She was curious. She knew her identity wasn't all that clear . . . so she decided to find out what we really thought. Yeah that game was fun. Can we play again?

Well, I am indeed female, and I thought that was pretty much common knowledge (afterall, I have mentioned wearing a headscarf to church, more than once) until yesterday when I was referred to and spoken to like I was male.
That was hilarious on my end.

 

[madeinrussia89]

Let this also be known that the holy prophet forbade wife beating at one point of time. The prophet also advised a women not to marry a person who was a wife beater. The admonition is permitted only when a wife shows arrogance in the matters of faith and not for any other purpose.

How did they know if someone was a wifebeater or not if they hadn't had any previous wives?

 

[Quahom1]

I was kidding about lightly beating, but generally women don't want to have sexual relations with someone we're disgusted with.

I personally wouldn't hesistate to refuse him (but not on a regular basis), but that's just me. And if it does ruin his day, then he will know what it feels like to the woman.



I absolutely agree that it's an excellent way to sabotage a relationship, or whatever is left of one.





Well, I am indeed female, and I thought that was pretty much common knowledge (afterall, I have mentioned wearing a headscarf to church, more than once) until yesterday when I was referred to and spoken to like I was male.
That was hilarious on my end.

funny as hell...

 

[Muslimwoman]

Let this also be known that the holy prophet forbade wife beating at one point of time. The prophet also advised a women not to marry a person who was a wife beater. The admonition is permitted only when a wife shows arrogance in the matters of faith and not for any other purpose.

assalaamu aleykum brother Farooq

I would be very interested to know when the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) forbade wife beating and under what circumstances, as I have never heard this before.

 

[greymare]

Salty, I suppose it would be very female of me to say that I dont want to talk about it anymore and I need an aspirin(LOL) I actually did get an impression of you that I didnt like. A wife beating sympathizer. But its ok, I no from your posts that you are not like that at all. However I feel you really do think a lot about things and get very pysci on this. (I Know its not the correct word but I am limited in my vocab) What I mean is , you think deeply about things. I dont. well, not about that anyway. I dont understand or agree with some of what you said but that is only on my own ignorance of this kind of personality. Its ok for us to disagree on this, lets let it go.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Gang

You lot haven't got the hang of a Muslim marriage yet have you? I know, it takes a lot of mental adjustment.

Firstly, no-one, husband or wife, is allowed to be violent through anger. You are not allowed to even kill in war due to anger. Anger is pride and we will answer for this to Allah. Please try to understand our level of faith, it is not like being scared of being arrested and going to prison IF we are caught. There is no escape from the knowledge of G-d, so there is no 'if'. G-d knows everything we do and why, we WILL answer for all of our deeds, every tiny one of them.

Does this mean it will never happen, of course not but if we are angry or violent then we must repent and make every effort not to do it again in the future. Does this mean my husband can beat me then go buy his friend something nice and all is forgiven - of course not. However, if my husband ever hit me through anger (that will be the day ) he can repent, ask for my forgiveness and resolve never to do it again. However he would have to treat me 'real nice' after that. Will Allah forgive him hitting me? Only Allah knows but my guess is that if he repents and never repeats this then it will show his humility and if I forgive him this will show my humility.

Does this mean Muslim women should forgive time and again, NO way. We are not expected to stay in a violent marriage.

Sorry it is a long post but I really would like you to understand. If I am in a violent marriage I can ask for a divorce, if my husband refuses I can go to my Imam for help. What will happen first is the Imam will establish if this is the first time my husband beat me, why he hit me and how severly. He will then speak to my husband to get the other side of the story. Now there are a few possibilities:

1. The Imam discovers that this is the first fight where my husband hit me but that he did this through anger because we had a fight about money or I burnt his favourite shirt ironing it ... whatever but it was a normal marital argument. The Imam will then speak to my husband and I, both seperately then together. He will explain to my husband that hitting me is not allowed and that if he is afraid of Allah and the Day of Judgement he must truely repent and refrain from this behaviour in future. I can hear you say Big Deal but for someone that knows the Day of Judgement will come and he must answer for his treatment of his wife this is a big deal. I would then be asked if I can forgive my husband and encouraged to do so, with lots of assurance from the Imam that my husband understands the errors of his ways.

Result - a marriage is saved and my husband understands his obligations in the future.

2. The Imam discovers that I am a good wife but my husband is regularly violent about petty things, he simply has a temper problem.

If I was agreeable the Imam would work regularly with my husband to try to refocus his faith, understanding and anger. This does not mean 'let's forget about the past and try not to do it again - oops you did it again you are very naughty but lets try again'. It would be about focussing his mind on the many teachings of our faith about caring for your wife and on the punishments of hell. Basically about re-educating my husband.

If I was not agreeable a 'council' of Muslims would consider my case, if they came to the same conclusion as my Imam they would dissolve my marriage even though my husband refused the divorce. This would be legally binding (in reality this takes a looooong time but I would go to stay with my family while this process takes its course). My husband would be punished for his beatings and the chances of him finding a new wife would be slim to zero (as we are instructed not to marry a wife beater).

3. The Imam establishes that every time my husband goes to work I run off to see the local butcher (please be aware that I always use the example of the butcher because I never, ever go there, I do not want anyone to think this is some kind of confession). My husband at first tried to explain my actions were against our marriage, against our faith and tried to behave in a caring way that stopped me from wanting to go to see the butcher again. After that failed he refused to sleep with me for a month but I still kept going to see the butcher. Eventually my husband had enough and slapped my bum, shouting at me that I am a hussy and my behaviour will not be tolerated. That is when I went to see the Imam - guess who is in trouble now

Not only have I damaged my own marriage but I have also caused trouble in our community. My husband has shown restraint, patience and care for our marriage bonds. I on the other hand have shown no respect for my marriage, my husband, our children if we have them or my community. The Imam would then establish why my husband does not divorce me, if it is for the right reasons and not just to punish me and keep me in an unhappy marriage then I will be the one to be re-educated and punished for my wicked behaviour. Of course the butcher would also be punished (even if he was not party to my flirting he had not taken action to stop it as is his duty).

Under these circumstances if my husband had hit my face and split my lip he would get a good telling off and must honestly repent but in reality I doubt he would be punished as his actions would be deemed understandable under the circumstances. There is only so far you can push someone before people see it as 'asking for it'. Strictly speaking though under Islamic law my husband should be punished for this level of violence under any circumstances, as it is not allowed to leave a mark on my body or hit me on the face, no matter what I do.

So I hope you can see the fairness in the system. It is not about giving permission to beat your wife up but about protecting people from sin, protecting the community from trouble. What if the butcher was married, how many people have been hurt by our behaviour?

I agree with Saltmeister, refusing sexual relations sometimes is part of a normal marriage but for a prolonged period it puts a strain on a marriage. This can lead to a frustrated spouce and the possibility/probability of adultery.

This brings us to polygamy. Much is said about the topic and many Muslims use it for the wrong reason but may I give you an example of where it can work for a marriage and society as a whole. As you know I am much older than my husband, so what if I just go off sex altogether? It does happen with some women of a certain age. What if I love my husband dearly but just can't be bothered with sex anymore. In the UK either my husband, who we are assuming loves me, has to accept a life without sex, have an affair or get a divorce and remarry.

In Islamic society this problem can easily be solved if my husband has the financial resources, as he can take a second wife. He MUST divide his time equally between us and treat us equally, so if he buys me a new carpet he must buy one for his other wife. Now, I still have the husband I love and enjoy spending time with but I am not obliged to have sex with him if he accepts that within our marriage. He can get his satisfaction with his other wife but still have his first wife that he dearly loves. His second wife would accept this because there is nothing to be jealous of and chances are we would be friends and visit each other because we are not in competition with each other.

The same does not work for women. If my husband has a problem in that department and cannot satisfy me I cannot take a second husband because of the question of parentage of any children that come from the second marriage. I can however divorce my husband if he is unable to satisfy me and remarry. Of course in this situation it would be better for me to stay in my loving marriage and my husband can learn other methods of providing my satisfaction, this would be better for everyone. It would also be a blessing for my husband as he would be unlikely to ever find a new wife, so would show love, patience and humility on my part.

Where I do not agree with polygamy is if you get everything you need from one marriage, then to have a second is just greed and pride. Most of the men I have heard of that have polygamous marriages do it for the simple reason of showing off to the community that they are a 'big man' and can have two wives, also for purely sexual reasons. How they will treat them fairly and avoid the punishment of Allah I have no idea.

This is what Islam teaches, that does not mean it is how all Muslims behave but I really hope you can see how it gives a fair solution to all problems and everyone involved.

Salaam
MW

 

[madeinrussia89]

Hi Gang
Firstly, no-one, husband or wife, is allowed to be violent through anger. You are not allowed to even kill in war due to anger.

What is one allowed to be violent through? And when are you allowed to kill in war?

If I am in a violent marriage I can ask for a divorce, if my husband refuses I can go to my Imam for help. What will happen first is the Imam will establish if this is the first time my husband beat me, why he hit me and how severly. He will then speak to my husband to get the other side of the story.

But what if the next time he beats his wife to death? To what extent are husbands (or particularly feisty wives) allowed a second chance? How does the Imam take into account that this guy might show every sign of not doing it again, and then snaps and kills his wife out of the blue?

With the polygamy, it's not really a question of parentage anymore, we have DNA testing! If at the time of Mohammed's life they had DNA testing, do you think it would still be the same?

Why is the woman showing humility if she stays with a husband that can't sexually satisfy her, but the man isn't also expected to show the same humility and love and patience and not pick out a new wife? Why can't he just chill out and deal with it too?

Oh yeah, and another question, I heard of a muslim " prenup " called an aqd (I am probably spelling it terribly wrong)? Is that real? And if it is, can you stipulate terms like " If he takes another wife, I have a right to a speedy divorce and the kids" ?

 

[Muslimwoman]

What is one allowed to be violent through? And when are you allowed to kill in war?

Defence fullstop. There is a hadith (I will try to find it to show you I am not making it up but for now in my own words - also I do not know if this hadith is considered authentic because it goes against the teaching of not forcing converts but it does speak to how a Muslim should behave).

A Muslim was in battle against a Pagan, he got the better of the Pagan and knelt across his chest with his sword raised. He said if you declare There is only One G-d I shall release you. The pagan shouted 'never' and spat in the Muslims face. At this the Muslim got up and said you are free to go. Of course the pagan was confused and asked why. The Muslim explained that the spitting in his face had made him angry and so if he killed the pagan he would do so out of anger, not defence and he would be punished by Allah for this.

I could use violence against you if you were attacking my community, either physically or morally, however as soon as you stopped I must also stop and any further violence from me would be about revenge not defence. The idea is to make you stop your attack, that is the limit I must stick to as a Muslim.

But what if the next time he beats his wife to death? To what extent are husbands (or particularly feisty wives) allowed a second chance? How does the Imam take into account that this guy might show every sign of not doing it again, and then snaps and kills his wife out of the blue?

Of course it is personal, if I thought my husband had 'snapped' and went crazy and it me then of course I would not accept to remain in the marriage. This fear would be communicated to the Imam. One thing for the Imam to establish would be the level of violence used the first time. It would be very unusual indeed for someone to go from a light slap to murder. Also the attitude of my husband would be taken into account, what reason did he give for slapping me, does he feel sufficiently and genuinely guilty, etc. No Imam is going to ask me to stay with a husband he feels may be violent a second time or will increase the violence.

With the polygamy, it's not really a question of parentage anymore, we have DNA testing! If at the time of Mohammed's life they had DNA testing, do you think it would still be the same?

But to have the DNA test that means the child already exists, until the test results which husband should bond with the child? Which name should the child take? Which house should the child live in? Who are the grandparents? Lineage is a VERY important issue in Islam.

Also how do most people afford this test? A vast majority of Muslims live in very poor communities, they are very lucky if they can afford a doctor when they are sick, let alone for something like this (which is a very expensive test).

Why is the woman showing humility if she stays with a husband that can't sexually satisfy her, but the man isn't also expected to show the same humility and love and patience and not pick out a new wife? Why can't he just chill out and deal with it too?

Because sex is only one small part of marriage, if my husband works hard to provide a good life for me, is kind and loving to me should I not be grateful for having a good husband? What if my husband is crippled in an accident, should I rush out to get a divorce because I need penile penetration? Or would I be a better person if I cared for my husband and between us we found alternative methods of satisfying me?

The decision is entirely for the husband if his wife goes off sex permanently or is physically unable. Could my husband realistically say ok I shall be celebate for 30-40 years rather than take a new wife? If he choses to do so and just nip in the bathroom every now and again that decision is his. Would that happen in the west or would he take a lover? For us it is better to have a second marriage in this situation rather than commit adultery.

Oh yeah, and another question, I heard of a muslim " prenup " called an aqd (I am probably spelling it terribly wrong)? Is that real? And if it is, can you stipulate terms like " If he takes another wife, I have a right to a speedy divorce and the kids" ?

There are so many false ideas about Islamic marriage, if you will bear with me I would like to do a seperate post to clear some of them up.

 

[Muslimwoman]

An-Nikah (meaning The Marriage). The word Adq that you used (well done on the spelling) means the religious marriage vows and are not conditions on the marriage contract.

The first idea people have about Islamic marriage is that it is all about men and what they want. Us women are just objects to own - Ahem. The Quran states:

And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-Giving, Knowing. (24:32)

Only women can marry male slaves, so an Islamic marriage is not about men but about society, the needs of both men and women. This business of polygamy is all just about sex - look at the above verse, it states if they are needy not if you fancy a leg over with them.

The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said, “There are three matters in which it is not permissible to joke: marriage, divorce, and emancipation (of slaves)” (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).

This doesn't mean you can't tell jokes about marriage but you are not allowed to say I will marry you, I divorce you or I free you as a slave and then say I was joking. This would be cruel and that is not permitted.

Marriage is therefore a very serious matter, so a contract is written before the marriage (sort of like a pre-nup in the west but even the poorest of people have them in Muslim society). This contract sets out the rights and obligations of both parties.

An Islamic marriage requires the following:

1. Eligibility of both parties (they must be of age, not related by any of the prohibited conditions, must not be an adultorer/adultoress unless they have sincerely repented, etc).

2. The brides permission. A woman CANNOT be married against her will. If she is she can request the marriage be invalidated at any time of her marriage. To show her permission she can either state that she accepts the marriage or stay silent and give a slight nod of the head.

3. The Wali - a woman must have a Wali (guardian) to negatiate the marriage contract on her behalf and 'give her away'. This cannot be a woman, as women have no legal responsibility for women, if the woman becomes widowed it would be the men of the family that must legally provide for her. So it is usually the father, grandfather, brother, oldest son, etc. In my case I had no Muslim relative but as I am a mature woman my agreement to the marriage was accepted as valid proof. Had I been 18 an Imam would have been appointed by the court to act as my Wali.

4. Witnesses. There must be 2 male witnesses, they must be Muslim and trustworthy, as they will state there is no impedement agains the marriage and the woman has agreed to it. I believe the Hanafi school allows 1 male and 2 female witnesses.

5. The Mahr (dowry). This is given to the woman as her personal property and nobody ever has the right to take it from her, not her husband or parents or children. The idea of the dowry is that the woman always has a nest egg if her husband dies. In Egypt this is usually gold for poor people and/or property for wealthier people. I tried to refuse a dowry but it was insisted upon so I accepted 100 le (about £10)

6. Conditions of the Marriage Contract. These must be in line with Islamic law and there are different permitted conditions depending on the Islamic school you belong to. Each condition must be stated seperately in the contract and each signed by both parties. Breaking of the conditions invalidates the marriage contract and as a husband can simply utter certain words to get divorced, it is usually the wifes Wali that stipulates conditions. A husband can if he chooses allow his wife to apply for divorce in the marriage contract but not all schools agree with the validity of this condition (some marriage contracts do allow that a wife can appoint a Wakil to apply for a divorce on her behalf). Another condition can be the splitting up of assets after divorce. There can be a condition to ensure that divorce must take place before a second marriage is contracted, thereby not allowing a polygamous marriage but again not all schools agree on this HOWEVER I have never seen a single Islamic Law site that does not state the wife has the right to apply for divorce but what the law says and what some people do is often different.

So do some Muslim women end up in miserable marriages they cannot get out of, unfortunately yes but they are by far the minority and it is usually custom that causes this, not Islamic law.

You may also hear about Mut'ah (temporary marriage and literally translated means marriage for pleasure). This is ONLY allowed in Shia Islam and is totally rejected by Sunni Muslims. It is a fixed term marriage that allows a husband to basically employ a sex slave for a few days/months/years but without legal obligation, and in my view is a trick to lesgalise prostitution. No marriage contract is needed but the man is financially responsible for any children from the marriage, I believe. If we were Shia this would mean that my husband could get a temporary marriage while I was working in the Uk and agree to terminate the marriage when I return - YUK. It is forbidden.

The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) did allow temporary marriage at one point but over time he made it unlawful.

Islamic marriage is not as most non Muslims think, with oppressed miserable beaten wives or I would have got out a long time ago. As with all societies we have good and bad marriages, good and bad practices among our man made customs but the Islamic law does not allow the oppression of women, however some Muslims do. What is required is not changing of the Sharia but education of Muslims as to their rights and obligations under Islamic law.

What I find depressing is that people look at the issue of allowing, under very strict circumstances, a husband to slap his wifes bum or beat her with a toothbrush and ignore the fact that 1400 years ago it was forbidden to beat your wife. In a time when women were owned as objects, no Muslim man was allowed to punch, bruise, hit with a stick or leave a mark on his wife. Men that did were severely punished. Should we not be celebrating the protection of women, rather than criticise what can eventually be done if your wife continually plays around behind your back?

 

[greymare]

muslim marriages seem such a family and community affair. and to be honest there seems to be a bit of safety in that. A lot of relationships fail I have realizd when the woman falls for the "bad" boy. she thinks, poor love all he needs is a good woman and that is me. He has good qualities. I just have to help him show them. blah blah blah. doesnt work. those bad points he has are with him for good. either accept him as is or walk away. finally i worked that one out. LOL. I never married, in my own strange way , I had his children but marriage is forever and I knew I was always looking for a way out. So now my oldest is getting married next month. fancy your kid getting married before you do. LOL. thats just the way I do things i guess. LOL

 

[Saltmeister]

Salty, I suppose it would be very female of me to say that I dont want to talk about it anymore and I need an aspirin(LOL) I actually did get an impression of you that I didnt like. A wife beating sympathizer. But its ok, I no from your posts that you are not like that at all. However I feel you really do think a lot about things and get very pysci on this. (I Know its not the correct word but I am limited in my vocab) What I mean is , you think deeply about things. I dont. well, not about that anyway. I dont understand or agree with some of what you said but that is only on my own ignorance of this kind of personality. Its ok for us to disagree on this, lets let it go.

Hi grey (maybe the last time on this thread, or at least the topic we've been discussing).

I think a misunderstanding we had was that I was talking about domestic violence in general, ranging from minor scuffles (pushing and shoving, snatching, throwing, temper tantrums, tugs of war, wrestling, etc.) but perhaps not to the severe case of wife-beating.

It was only just recently that I was alerted to the fact that domestic violence is actually quite common. I was quite shocked when I found out. It meant that if 25% of people experienced domestic violence (supposing), I had a 1 in 4 chance of getting violent. I've never actually gotten into an intimate, romantic relationship with a woman before. But . . . it's good to do some thinking before I get into one so I can be careful before I start. It's easy to think we're not going to be violent, but I guess once you get into a relationship, you never know what might happen.

Before then, I thought violence was rare (probably 0.1 % of the population?). I'd say I was fairly naive. I would have thought that in a 20th/21st century society that domestic violence would be very rare. But no, it seems that even if you're university educated -- you're a scientist, lawyer, engineer, accountant, it doesn't mean you're not going to hit someone. It doesn't matter how much you earn. If you can get angry . . . you're probably going to do it at some point in your life-time.

But anyway, my impression from all this was that . . . there were thousands of people every day . . . having their moments of rage.

 

[madeinrussia89]

Defence fullstop. There is a hadith (I will try to find it to show you I am not making it up but for now in my own words - also I do not know if this hadith is considered authentic because it goes against the teaching of not forcing converts but it does speak to how a Muslim should behave).

A Muslim was in battle against a Pagan, he got the better of the Pagan and knelt across his chest with his sword raised. He said if you declare There is only One G-d I shall release you. The pagan shouted 'never' and spat in the Muslims face. At this the Muslim got up and said you are free to go. Of course the pagan was confused and asked why. The Muslim explained that the spitting in his face had made him angry and so if he killed the pagan he would do so out of anger, not defence and he would be punished by Allah for this.

I could use violence against you if you were attacking my community, either physically or morally, however as soon as you stopped I must also stop and any further violence from me would be about revenge not defence. The idea is to make you stop your attack, that is the limit I must stick to as a Muslim.

Do Muslims see Saladin and his army as practicing in self defense in the Seige of Jerusalem?

It would be very unusual indeed for someone to go from a light slap to murder.

I know it would be way out of the ordinary, but what if that did happen, how can the Imam live with himself knowing that he may have given the women advice that led to her death? Or is that just accepted as God's will if he makes a wrong decision?

But to have the DNA test that means the child already exists, until the test results which husband should bond with the child? Which name should the child take? Which house should the child live in? Who are the grandparents? Lineage is a VERY important issue in Islam.

I would just assume it would be natural to take the name of his/her birth father, live in the house of the birth father, and the grandparents would be the mother's parents and the birth father's parents. It's not that confusing to me.

It would just be weird to take the name of a non-birth father unless he was dead or a murderous maniac.

Also how do most people afford this test? A vast majority of Muslims live in very poor communities, they are very lucky if they can afford a doctor when they are sick, let alone for something like this (which is a very expensive test).

If they can afford additional wives, then they should be able to afford it. I just don't see why it can go one way and not the other.

Because sex is only one small part of marriage, if my husband works hard to provide a good life for me, is kind and loving to me should I not be grateful for having a good husband? What if my husband is crippled in an accident, should I rush out to get a divorce because I need penile penetration? Or would I be a better person if I cared for my husband and between us we found alternative methods of satisfying me?

The decision is entirely for the husband if his wife goes off sex permanently or is physically unable. Could my husband realistically say ok I shall be celebate for 30-40 years rather than take a new wife? If he choses to do so and just nip in the bathroom every now and again that decision is his. Would that happen in the west or would he take a lover? For us it is better to have a second marriage in this situation rather than commit adultery.

So it's not right for the woman to run out and get a divorce, but it is totally okay for the man to take a new wife? Wives can enjoy sex just as much as a man does, so why should his needs take priority?

I do not see the equality in this at all. The husband could realistically be celibate if he really loved and treasured his wife, and if he can't see himself doing that, then he should divorce her. Point blank. Polygamy hurts.


Thanks for clearing up the whole marriage thing though.... So there is a marriage contract for EVERY marriage, it's not something unusual like in the West, right?

 

[Muslimwoman]

Do Muslims see Saladin and his army as practicing in self defense in the Seige of Jerusalem?

Yes, they acted in defence of the Muslim people and against the oppression of the Cursaders. Fighting is permitted against opressors. When Jerusalem was under Islamic law Christians and Jews were allowed to visit their holy shrines and churches/synagogues, they also practiced their religion openly, although a tax was due to the ruling Muslims. The first Crusade went from dealing with the ravaging Turks to a widespread takover of the region and massacre of virtually all inhabitants (Muslims, Jews and even eastern Christians). According to Fulcher of Chartres "Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared".

Yet when Saladin took Jerusalem he went to war, then negotiated, ransomed and guaranteed the safety of the inhabitants of Jerusalem until they left the country. He honoured this guarantee. Once he had taken Jerusalem Jews and Christians were once again permitted to practice their religions, ending the oppression.

I know it would be way out of the ordinary, but what if that did happen, how can the Imam live with himself knowing that he may have given the women advice that led to her death? Or is that just accepted as God's will if he makes a wrong decision?

The Imam cannot be blamed, he would not encourage a woman to stay with a man he thought was any danger.

I would just assume it would be natural to take the name of his/her birth father, live in the house of the birth father, and the grandparents would be the mother's parents and the birth father's parents. It's not that confusing to me.

In Muslim society a child CANNOT ever take the name of anyone but their biological father, hence the difficulties. Unless you know at the same time you find out you are pregnant who the father is, which husband would celebrate the pregnancy?

If they can afford additional wives, then they should be able to afford it. I just don't see why it can go one way and not the other.

This is from a medical website:

A DNA test in the UK will cost in the region of £500

that is 5000 egyptian pounds. I know families that live on 20 egyptian pounds per day. So at the higher level even with 2 families that is 40 le per day = 125 days wages. Does that put it into perspective?

I do not see the equality in this at all. The husband could realistically be celibate if he really loved and treasured his wife, and if he can't see himself doing that, then he should divorce her. Point blank. Polygamy hurts.

But what if the first wife doesn't want to be divorced, is happy to have the love and care of her husband and accept a second marriage in order for her husband to fulfil the needs she can't or doesn't want to fulfil?

Polygamy would hurt you or I but there are women that choose for their husbands to marry a second wife. They do not see marriage the way we do, they enjoy the company of the other wife(s) and children, in some families men are just bankers, the family is the women and children. It is hard for us to understand but it does work for some people, so we should not judge them by our standards and emotions imo.

Thanks for clearing up the whole marriage thing though.... So there is a marriage contract for EVERY marriage, it's not something unusual like in the West, right?

It is a matter of choice but is much more common than in the west. Some people don't choose to have a contract because there is nothing they feel they need to specify but they are very common.

 

[Saltmeister]

So it's not right for the woman to run out and get a divorce, but it is totally okay for the man to take a new wife? Wives can enjoy sex just as much as a man does, so why should his needs take priority?

I do not see the equality in this at all. The husband could realistically be celibate if he really loved and treasured his wife, and if he can't see himself doing that, then he should divorce her. Point blank. Polygamy hurts.

But what if the first wife doesn't want to be divorced, is happy to have the love and care of her husband and accept a second marriage in order for her husband to fulfil the needs she can't or doesn't want to fulfil?

Polygamy would hurt you or I but there are women that choose for their husbands to marry a second wife. They do not see marriage the way we do, they enjoy the company of the other wife(s) and children, in some families men are just bankers, the family is the women and children. It is hard for us to understand but it does work for some people, so we should not judge them by our standards and emotions imo.

I think this issue has a lot to do with the Western mindset being dominated by individualism. As greymare observed, marriage seems very much to be a community affair. I suppose that may mean that in your religion individualism is not as important as collectivism. In the West it's a first priority to respect the individual, or to have laws and values that favour the individual. An individual is not to be judged or condemned for personal problems or personal weaknesses, as everyone has a life story. They are going through a dark phase in their lives and need to work through it. They are not to be held slave to laws and values that they cannot reasonably or realistically obey or uphold.

Individual pride and individual dignity are very important in the West, I think primarily because it helps the economy and makes our country strong. The fact that you can make a name for yourself by some idea you've had gives you an incentive to work hard to make a contribution to society, and possibly introduce something new. It encourages creativity. (Yeah it's all motivated by greed.) That's one of the reasons why the West has progressed, advanced and developed so much technologically, economically and politically. It's the persistent generation and pursuit of new ideas. Ideas produced by individuals, spurred on and fueled by individual pride.

We don't like missing out on things. If we see something someone else is enjoying (ie. sex or a beautiful woman), we can't help wanting it too. It is our right to have it. How dare anyone deny us the pleasure? We say it's unfair. What have they got that we don't have? Do they deserve that more than us? The problem is either how hard we work (that I can earn it by effort) or laws that are oppressive. If the laws are so bad that they prevent us from getting the luxuries that someone else can enjoy, we ask for a change in laws.

That's not to say I don't believe madeinrussia should have that pleasure. I'm a Westerner, and therefore I am an individualist. I would, therefore feel bad that she didn't get the pleasure that all individuals in the West should have -- an individual's sense of pride, dignity and spontaneity.

But the only reason why I believe individualism is so important is because that is how the economy has been structured and organised in the West. You can't get a good job unless you've got great ideas or a great mind. The other jobs out there are for the lowly -- boring jobs like garbage collection, cleaning public toilets, etc. (pardon me if I offended anyone there!!!!) I have no choice but to be an individualist. My country and its economy demand it. We have security interests. Our country needs to be strong. We want to prevent World War 3 and the next Hitler, next brutal dictatorship from achieving world domination. So we devote ourselves to individualism, because it encourages technological progress.

I think if individual pride and individual dignity were less important, I'd be less concerned about the way people treated me. I wouldn't be so worried about missing out on all the fun stuff everyone else in my society enjoys. That's what I think it's all about when we talk about how good sex is and whether or not men and women are enjoying themselves.

I believe all this happens subconsciously in the minds of Westerners. The really evil and sinister thing may be that . . . it's all about military and political domination and hegemony. It preys on the minds of people with individualist beliefs and their needs and desires. Yeah . . . we believe we're free . . . but really . . . we're all slaves.

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to come up with a conspiracy theory!!!

But anyway . . . what was I getting at? I think maybe what the Islamic mindset does is it gives you a substitute for individualism. You are now one of God's people. You don't have to spend the rest of your life impressing and pleasing other people by showing that you're a "normal person." You're a Muslim. If you tell people you're Muslim you don't have to act normal anymore. Your Western friends will understand. You've devoted your life to another cause. You don't have to succumb to peer pressure and be an individualist anymore. No longer a slave of Western individualist pride.

Yeah I think I get it now . . . I guess that's what Muslim women mean when they said the hijab gives them liberation. I suppose throwing off individualism does help. In which case Islam may be liberating for men too. lol

Not that I'm Muslim now. I like my individualist pride. I want to be a normal person.

Then again, madeinrussia isn't a Westerner. She's Russian. I don't know, however, how different Russia is from the West in terms of individualist attitudes. You'd have to ask her. Though . . . I would have thought . . . demanding sexual equality was individualist enough.

 

[bob x]

According to her profile, Madeinrussia is actually German in origin (I do not know how she comes to be of the Russian Orthodox faith), and she has said she lives in Las Vegas, Nevada.

 

[Saltmeister]

According to her profile, Madeinrussia is actually German in origin (I do not know how she comes to be of the Russian Orthodox faith), and she has said she lives in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Oh I see, her profile indicates her current location to be Eugene in Oregon, also in the U.S.

 

[greymare]

salty, is it just me or are you saying that you cannot get involved with someone of the oppposite sex ? I am sorry if I am being a personal but it helps me get a better idea of your interpretation of what I was saying earlier. If you want to you can pm me.

 

[Muslimwoman]

If you tell people you're Muslim you don't have to act normal anymore.

LMAO I assume you mean normal by western standards?!

Yeah I think I get it now . . . I guess that's what Muslim women mean when they said the hijab gives them liberation. I suppose throwing off individualism does help. In which case Islam may be liberating for men too. lol

YES, that is one reason why we find the hijab liberating. We are no longer judged by our beauty or lack thereof, we are now judged by our actions and our minds.

Okay, this is hard for me to explain because I very much sit on the fence with this issue. I could not accept plural marriage for myself but I can now understand why some people choose to live this way.

Okay let me be brutally honest about this and see if it helps you to understand.

I have made no secret of the fact that my husband is 16 years my junior, I cannot have children and I could not accept polygamy. Obviously this is a subject that has been discussed at length in my home.

My husband adores me, not because of the way I look or that I could get him a visa for the UK but because of who I am inside. He knew before our marriage I could not have children and accepted that.

When his parents brought up the subject of a second wife, so he could have children, I freaked, demanded a divorce and started shouting about having sex with another woman and everyone in the room looked very honestly confused. They didn't understand why I was talking about sex, what did that have to do with anything?! My husband explained that he didn't want a second wife and was not ever going to divorce me. The whole family couldn't get their head round this.

Here is their thinking ....

Fact - I cannot have children but am an excellent 'mother' (ie I am good with the children in the family).

Solution - second wife to have children, I then have children to take care of and this will make me happy. As these children are my husbands I would accept them as my own.

Fact - my husband can, it is assumed, have children and it is natural for people to want children of their own.

Solution - a second wife would provide children for him and he would still have his happy marriage with me.

Fact - there are many poor women in our town that cannot find a husband.

Solution - my husband takes a second wife and provides for her, thus fulfilling a social duty while providing the children he desires.

To be honest I cannot fault their logic but of course do not think this way so cannot accept it. In the west we have focussed so much of our lives on the sexual aspects of a relationship that it has become a deal breaker, jealousy is rampant and affairs are the soultion to sexual frustration.

I am now somewhere in the middle and doubt I shall ever go one way or the other. This lifestyle is not for me, my mind is too westernised to ever accept this for myself but I can now see why and how it does work for some people.

In our society children are the meaning of life.

Take a moment to think of the anguish this issue causes my marriage. I have the constant fear that in the future my husbands desire for children will override his love for me and therefore have to divorce me to have children (because I could not accept anything else). My husband has to reject his desire for children or reject his love for me - not an easy choice I think, particularly with constant pressure from those around him. I have a constant battle in my head that if I could just force myself to accept a second wife then my husband would be so happy and I would take the anguish of not having children away from him (I know how much this hurts).

I don't know what the solution will be for my marriage, only time will tell but I see a big lump of hurt for someone in the future. I really wish I had been born in their society, with their mindset so this was a non issue for me and a solution was obvious and fair to everone involved.

I would very much appreciate if you didn't make personal comments, I am only telling you this in the hope it will make you see why Islam has provided polygamy as a solution for our difficulty.

Wouldn't it be better if I could happily accept polygamy and get on with my life, rather than live with the immense pain and guilt this situation is causing?

THAT is one reason why Islam allows polygamy, not to fulfil mens sexual desires. What men may choose to do with that permission may be different to its intended purpose but they will answer to Allah for that.

Salaam

 

[madeinrussia89]

Yes, they acted in defence of the Muslim people and against the oppression of the Cursaders. Fighting is permitted against opressors. When Jerusalem was under Islamic law Christians and Jews were allowed to visit their holy shrines and churches/synagogues, they also practiced their religion openly, although a tax was due to the ruling Muslims. The first Crusade went from dealing with the ravaging Turks to a widespread takover of the region and massacre of virtually all inhabitants (Muslims, Jews and even eastern Christians). According to Fulcher of Chartres "Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared".

But didn't Saladin turn around and massacre women and children as well...? Is that justified?

I have respect for Saladin's instances of mercy. But I wouldn't want to be a dhimmi, or in a society with stringent apostasy laws as in the Shari'a.

Yet when Saladin took Jerusalem he went to war, then negotiated, ransomed and guaranteed the safety of the inhabitants of Jerusalem until they left the country. He honoured this guarantee. Once he had taken Jerusalem Jews and Christians were once again permitted to practice their religions, ending the oppression.

But that was when he was blackmailed into it because Balian said he was going to destroy Al-Aqsa, etc.

In Muslim society a child CANNOT ever take the name of anyone but their biological father, hence the difficulties. Unless you know at the same time you find out you are pregnant who the father is, which husband would celebrate the pregnancy?

I guess this is where DNA comes in.

This is from a medical website:

A DNA test in the UK will cost in the region of £500

that is 5000 egyptian pounds. I know families that live on 20 egyptian pounds per day. So at the higher level even with 2 families that is 40 le per day = 125 days wages. Does that put it into perspective?

I see how it is an insane cost. But to me that doesn't make it okay for men to have an upperhand on women just because a man with multiple wives would not need a DNA test as opposed to a woman with more than one husband.

But what if the first wife doesn't want to be divorced, is happy to have the love and care of her husband and accept a second marriage in order for her husband to fulfil the needs she can't or doesn't want to fulfil?

Because that is demeaning yourself. A wife is worth more than that, she isn't just a performer/recipient of sexual pleasure, and she should be accorded her husband's full and only attention. The husband can put his urges on hold.

Polygamy would hurt you or I but there are women that choose for their husbands to marry a second wife. They do not see marriage the way we do, they enjoy the company of the other wife(s) and children, in some families men are just bankers, the family is the women and children. It is hard for us to understand but it does work for some people, so we should not judge them by our standards and emotions imo.

I can't imagine being in a marriage like that and being okay with it. I understand it is different in Islamic societies, but in Christianity and (as far as I know) Judaism it is way off limits.

It is a matter of choice but is much more common than in the west. Some people don't choose to have a contract because there is nothing they feel they need to specify but they are very common.

I wish they were more common here. Then people wouldn't waste so much time and money fighting over things like that.