"Gabriel's Revelation"

Dondi

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I was going to put this in the Judaism forum, but I felt it important to open it up to all the Abrahamic religions.

While the tablet in question is not new, it has ignited a debate on the in both Jewish and Christian circles. My question is that assuming the tablet is legit and reflects thought in the pre-Christian era of a messiah who will die and rise again in three days, how, if any, does it change your perspective?


Gabriel's Revelation
 
Thanks for the fabulous post. Really interesting.

IHT.com article said:
The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as a necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to lines 19 through 21 of the tablet — "In three days you will know that evil will be defeated by justice" — and other lines that speak of blood and slaughter as pathways to justice.
IHT.com article said:
"This should shake our basic view of Christianity," he said as he sat in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies at Hebrew University
IHT.com article ending said:
Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and "Gabriel's Revelation" shows it.

"His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come," Knohl said. "This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel."
First of all, this is a bunch of academics who are speaking academically, and it would be a mistake for Christians to think it is some sort of assault upon their faith. Some will, though. These guys are just being geeky, and having lots of fun at being serious.

Their most important (if slighly uninformed) comment is the last sentence in the article which says "This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel."

Actually this is consistent with Pauline and gospel writing. It is already clear that the shed blood is for sins of impurity, not for sins like adultery and I've written such an opinion in the forum already -- more than once. Its not a new idea. This is a case of academics talking about stuff they do know but stretching into areas they have very little idea about - such as the Christian scriptures.
 
I was going to put this in the Judaism forum, but I felt it important to open it up to all the Abrahamic religions.

While the tablet in question is not new, it has ignited a debate on the in both Jewish and Christian circles. My question is that assuming the tablet is legit and reflects thought in the pre-Christian era of a messiah who will die and rise again in three days, how, if any, does it change your perspective?


Gabriel's Revelation
Jesus said he came to fullfill prophecies. And he methodically went through each of them to the satisfaction of his followers. Odds are if the tablet real and the time period correct, he heard of it as well.

The thing I find interesting is how it was probably amongst the hundreds of items that were reviewed for cannonization yet found lacking. It didn't make the grade then, but makes discussion now. But other things that were dismissed then, and have been around ie not 'rediscovered' they stay on the dismissed list.
 
I was going to put this in the Judaism forum, but I felt it important to open it up to all the Abrahamic religions.

While the tablet in question is not new, it has ignited a debate on the in both Jewish and Christian circles. My question is that assuming the tablet is legit and reflects thought in the pre-Christian era of a messiah who will die and rise again in three days, how, if any, does it change your perspective?


Gabriel's Revelation

I am not sure yet. I printed out the article because it was mad interesting. I like the idea of "a challenge to the uniqueness of" Christian theology, especially the resurrection! Well, I used to look at the resurrection of Jesus as an unexpected event by the disciples, but the tablet changes this view I have. Perhaps it was already expected to happen, eh?
 
I am not sure why people tend to think the idea of self-sacrifice and resurrection was a new, unheard of concept until Jesus. The Druids already had that concept- it was a part of some European Pagan mythology (as was divine-humans). Gods sacrificed themselves for the deliverance and continuance of human society. And three was already important as well, which to me shows the importance of relationship- two entities and the medium through which they relate, or the entity that they produce together.

Now we see that Judaism had, at least in some sect, the same idea before Jesus.

Maybe it's just because of the way I'm Christian, but I don't see how this is earth-shattering for Christians. Just because someone prophesied a suffering messiah that would rise again after three days doesn't mean Jesus' life, death, and resurrection are any less valid for Christians. Maybe I'm just not getting what they are arguing...
 
Hi Dondi —

Doesn't, really ... it's not who said it ... it's who did it ...

As Wil points out, Jesus used references that would have been known to his audience ... if this artefact is real, then that's just another reference. Perhaps He didn't. Perhaps that's not what it says ...

One thing I would take issue with, Wil:
The thing I find interesting is how it was probably amongst the hundreds of items that were reviewed for cannonization yet found lacking.
What items? Reviewed when? By whom? ... Are you stirring the pot again?

Thomas
 
Hi Dondi —

Doesn't, really ... it's not who said it ... it's who did it ...

As Wil points out, Jesus used references that would have been known to his audience ... if this artefact is real, then that's just another reference. Perhaps He didn't. Perhaps that's not what it says ...

One thing I would take issue with, Wil:

What items? Reviewed when? By whom? ... Are you stirring the pot again?

Thomas
Namaste Thomas,

If you don't stir the pot all the good stuff gets stuck to the bottom. I don't understand your question. I thought it well documented that the Jews went through a plethora of copies of various material before they cannonized their final scroll. And then when the Catholics put their bible together, it wasn't just 66 books that were being handed around, discussed and read at the time. The old Jewish Cannon was reordered to suit their fancy, and then of the hundreds of books around a select few were deemed appropriate and left in the New Testament. Some of these we've known about forever, others like this one, turn up, I'm not aware of any reference material indicating what was rejected, so I don't know if this is one that they were aware of at the time or not.
 
Hi Wil —

If you don't stir the pot all the good stuff gets stuck to the bottom.
I agree, but ...

... And then when the Catholics put their bible together, it wasn't just 66 books that were being handed around, discussed and read at the time. The old Jewish Cannon was reordered to suit their fancy, and then of the hundreds of books around a select few were deemed appropriate and left in the New Testament.
I can think of another type of stirring, but it's not 'pots'!

This is simply revisionist scandalmongering, typical of the self-serving modernist 'Catholics are to blame for everything' line — there was no institution as 'Catholic' when the Canon was discussed — just 'Christians'. In fact, to follow your anachronism, then the Greek Orthodox put the Bible together.

And again, iof you're going to make wild and sweeping accusations, I am going to ask for evidence to support your assertions, beyond generalities.

I'm not aware of any reference material indicating what was rejected, so I don't know if this is one that they were aware of at the time or not.
Doesn't stop you laying accusations at the innocent's door though, does it?

This isn't good stuff, Wil ... you're just cheerleading ignorance and keeping the anti-Catholic flame burning.

Thomas
 
Namaste Thomas,

Exactly where am I bashing? Was it not the Catholics that created the cannon that put the 66 books together? Correct me if I have that wrong. Were there not hundreds of books that were used prior to this amongst believers some of which currently compose what is called apocrypha?

I'd be glad to be corrected about this. I am not aware that I am spreading any mistruths. I do not know of a total list of what was rejected. I am not blaming anyone for anything, again just stating what I am aware of.

Please reread what I wrote and tell me where I was wrong.
 
Funny how we always find the 'main bits' are always missing... Heh...

We've found this, we've found that... We think we will find answers, but we seem to find only more questions... Interesting.


Are you referring to the illegible portions of the tablet? Yes, I suppose that is always problematic, especially if the illegible portions are key. Of course, if they could ever positively conclude what the missing portions say, it would only reinforce similar thought as revealed in the Messianic Apocalypse fragments (4Q521) of the Dead Sea scrolls:

"...[the hea]vens and the earth will listen to His Messiah, and none therein will stray from the commandments of the holy ones. Seekers of the Lord, strengthen yourselves in His service! All you hopeful in your heart, will you not find the Lord in this? For the Lord will consider the pious and call the righteous by name. Over the poor His spirit will hover and will renew the faithful with His power. And He will glorify the pious on the throne of the eternal Kingdom. He who liberates the captives, restores sight to the blind, straightens the b[ent]. And f[or] ever I will clea[ve to the h]opeful and in His mercy...And the fr[uit...] will not be delayed for anyone. And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been as...For He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead and bring good news to the poor"

This doesn't necessarily reflect the prominent thinking in Judaic circles; much of what is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls are believed to have originated from the Essenes in the Qumram community, which were not the mainstream. The Hebrew Scriptures do not directly announce the resurrection of the Messiah, though one could make a claim from Daniel 9. Then again there is the matter this passage alludes to a common belief in two Messiahs.

But the question of course arises as whether these kinds of documents sparked a national interest in the Messiah at the time of Christ, that many 'would be' messiahs used these documents to advance their claim, thus attempt to self-fulfill the prophecies, like the forementioned Simon in the article.

The more pressing question is what effect does it bring in matter of Jesus Christ? Is Jesus just another of those who took advantage of the times to proclaim himself as Messiah? Was he aware of such documents that mentioned resurrected messiah? The Gospel accounts are certainly clear that Jesus claimed that he would rise again after three days, suggesting that he had knowledge of these.

But does this really matter? Should Christians take this to mean that this illegitimizes the belief in Jesus as the Messiah? Well, even if Jesus knew this as a common belief, it does not automatically suggest that he plagerized the idea. There were messianic aspirations everywhere at the time, a want for change. To me, it only reinforces a timely expectation that a Messiah should come soon. And while many were looking for a conqueror over the current regime and the ushering in of a new kingdom, there was also the idea of a very different outcome.

Should this be a threat to Judaic thought? Even if the Hebrew Scriptures are not implicit of a resurrecting messiah, they certainly in favor of resurrection in general, as the stories of Elijah and Elisha, and in messianic and prophetic passages for the resurrection of Israel, like Ezekiel 37:3-14, Isaiah 26:19, and Daniel 12:3 suggest. So whether one believes that the Messiah is an actual figure or is represented an 'age' as an idea of restoration of Israel, resurrection should not pose a problem. The only significant factor that needs to be addressd is the idea of the 'three days'.

The number 'three' figures prominately in several biblical stories. It took three days journey for Abraham and Isaac to make the trip up Mount Moriah in order for Isaac to be sacrificed. It took three days and three nights before Jonah was spit out of the great fish from the depths of hell. It would take three days journey into the wilderness after the Israelites were delivered out of Egypt before they would sacrifice to the Lord God, according to Exodus 3:18. So it seem that the number 'three' itself has a theme of deliverance and resurrection.

It's possible that 'three days', in keeping with Psalm 90:4 ("A thousand years are to you like a yesterday which has passed, like a watch of the night.") that each day is a thousand years, starting from some place in Israel's past, before the ushering in of the Messianic age.
 
The more pressing question is what effect does it bring in matter of Jesus Christ? Is Jesus just another of those who took advantage of the times to proclaim himself as Messiah? Was he aware of such documents that mentioned resurrected messiah? The Gospel accounts are certainly clear that Jesus claimed that he would rise again after three days, suggesting that he had knowledge of these.
Namaste Dondi,

If so he was a pretty good magician. "What prophecy? Ressurection, no problem." Of course there exists a whole discussion about them experimenting with some plant/drug which simulated death for three days, lower breath rate etc and was used as a spiritual experience (Lazarus test run).

For us that live the stories, the metaphor, the analogies, the text is a different experience anyway.
 
Haven't heard of a plant that does this, but bokors in Voodoo use puffer fish to put people in such a death-like state that even modern medicine has trouble figuring out they aren't dead. They are often buried and then later exhumed by the bokor, who then keeps them on other drugs so they are sort of a zombie slave.

That said, the problem with drug-induced comatose-ness faking death and then resurrection is...

First, that it'd be really hard to get a particular time frame.
Second, it limits oxygen supply to the brain quite badly, and the longer you're under the worse the damage. Most "zombies" in Voodoo suffer from severe brain damage- many are unable to speak.

Personally, despite my sciency-ness, I actually believe in the "miracles" Christ performed. I just don't think anything is miraculous in the sense of impossible, but rather that Jesus Christ, having attained complete understanding of spirit, energy, and form, and being the perfect union of these, could manifest whatever He chose.

And yes, wil, you point out quite rightly (in my opinion) that for those who live and experience the stories and the Living Christ, those in the Spirit, stuff like this doesn't rock the boat. I think most of us have already wrestled with tough questions posed by the texts we have, so when more are brought about, it's just more stuff we have at God's feet, so to speak, waiting for our moment of enlightenment concerning it.
 
Hi Wil —

Was it not the Catholics that created the cannon that put the 66 books together?
No. Whatever led you to think that?

The early Church used the Hebrew Scriptures based on the Septuagint, defending them against Marcion and others who regarded the God of Jesus to be other than the God of the Jews.

Thus for the 'Old Testament' Christianity relied upon Judaism, without question, as far as I know. Later the Septuagint fell out of favour with the Jews, and a different canon exists for them.

As regards the NT, the Pauline epistles were probably the first text to receive wide circulation, and existed in a collection by the close of the first century.

A four-gospel canon was referred to by Irenaeus in the middle of the second, and by the early 200's, Origen may have been using the same 27 books as in the modern New Testament, though there were still disputes over the canonicity of Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, and Revelation.

Likewise the Muratorian fragment (c200) shows that there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to what is now the New Testament.

In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, then Bishop of Alexandria, listed the books of what we today consider the New Testament canon, using the term "canonized" (kanonizomena) with regard to them.

The African Synod of Hippo (393) approved the New Testament (as it stands today), together with the Septuagint, a decision endorsed by two Councils at Carthage (397 & 419).

Pope Damasus I's Council of Rome (382), accepting the Decretum Gelasianum as authentic, issued an identical list, (if not authentic it still dates from the 6th century).

Damasus also asked Jerome to undertake a Latin translation, which he did, referencing Hebrew original texts, rather than the Greek Septuagint, thus founding the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible (c383), that set the canon in the West. The East still uses the Septuagint today.

Thus, from the fourth century, there existed unanimity in the West concerning the New Testament canon as it is today, and had done for over a hundred years. By the fifth there existed a harmony between East and West in matters of the Canon — 73 books, not 66 (counting the apocrypha).

The Catholic Church did not exist as an entity until much later, and not until the Council of Trent in 1546 can one refer to any Catholic dogmatic statement — which simply endorsed what the Church had held to be the case for over a millenium.
The Anglicans declared their list in 1563,
The Greek Orthodox in 1672.

+++

Correct me if I have that wrong. Were there not hundreds of books that were used prior to this amongst believers some of which currently compose what is called apocrypha?
I've never heard of 'hundreds of books' before ... where did you get that from?

As we can see, the Canon was roughly in place by 200, and the acid test was a reference by a predecessor — if a book suddenly turns up, especially a gospel or letter of an apostle, without any prior mention in the tradition, then it's regarded with suspicion.

The Letter to the Hebrews is an example — an enigma, utterly anonymous (Origen among others doubted its attribution to St Paul, and said as much), yet it's theology is unique and individual, and on a par with St John or St Paul, and totally in accord with tradition ... so it's in. Likewise the later Epsitles of John, and eventually, Revelations.

But the 'gnostic gospels' ... they come out of the blue, often late (4th century), no reference in tradition, and seek to turn tradition on its head ... invariably claim a 'secret transmission' (so many of them!) ... furthermore they invariably contradict each other ... in one Jesus was taken alive from the Cross, in another it was the man Jesus but not the 'Christ' (whatever that means), in another Judas takes Jesus' place ...

I am not aware that I am spreading any mistruths. I do not know of a total list of what was rejected. I am not blaming anyone for anything, again just stating what I am aware of.
That's what I'm asking ... what evidence are you aware of?

Thomas
 
Thanks for pointing to this Dondi. I saw the article in the Sunday paper and wanted to be sure it made it here. After it was brought to my attention you already posted it I deleted my thread. Thanks Seattlegal.

My jury is out still. I want to believe this is genuine. But after the "bone box" fiasco a couple of years ago, I'm a bit skittish. Still, it would be interesting to get a complete translation of the whole text once it is made available. I checked out the scholar (Boyarin) at UC Berkeley and he seems legit, but I found no reference to this tablet. I also checked the Israel Museum in Jerusalem and found nothing regarding this tablet. Sooooo....right now it seems all we puny laypeople have to go on is this article. Unless someone knows more and wishes to share?
 
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