The Cross

[Quahom1]

I dunno being made into a messiah and being slaughtered when you didnt ask for either OR going back to god, both seem pretty bad altought i recon you wouldd favor one over the other)

If you read what Jesus taught his followers, he knew exactly what lay ahead for him, way before it ever happened. In fact, he expressed his knowledge at the age of 12...

Ironic, the man knew what his 'career' would be before he entered puberty...how's that for far sightedness?

 

[Only Special To God]

I dunno being made into a messiah and being slaughtered when you didnt ask for either OR going back to god, both seem pretty bad altought i recon you wouldd favor one over the other)

Hello Radunzel,

I do understand that you do not understand as to what I was trying to say.

I was trying to make a point as the beginning of the thread is about something that I would not rather put into words. However, please feel free to start at the beginning.

I thought that what I said was explanatory. The cross should be revered not put into tasteless art that does not give it justice.

God Bless,
Ian

 

[Only Special To God]

So at times he looked to the heavens for advice?... So as I said... Good example...

Alex,
I am a firm believer in that! I too when in doubt or often prayer....I looked to the heavens and then I bow my head knowing in my heart that he has heard me.

Ian

 

[Only Special To God]

isnt it a symbol that jesus died for us, and a constant reminder. (of his sacrifice)????

I agree Greymare, that is why I wear it, to be constantly reminded of his sacrifice for me, as I know in my heart that there is not another person on this earth who would do that, just so that I could be saved.

Ian

 

[Nick_A]

Sorry, i didnt make myself better understood, NickA. Its only very recently that I "got it". (that is an understanding of Christ). But now, to me, the cross is a reminder of something very important. And one day, if finances allow I shall buy a little cross and wear it around my neck to remind myself of His sacrifice for me and you and everyone else. Its got nothing to do with our own self importance, that is completely irrelevant to me, ( I amnot important in the greater scheme of things). But, i can be to others ( I hope). but I digress, I heard a preacher recently talk about people that we dont like, you know, criminals, etc, and people different from how we view ourselves, etc. I was sitting there listening to what he had to say but also critizising his manner , what he was wearing etc, (mybad). When he said, "well, Jesus died for these people as well". THAT is what struck me............That was my epiphany, i guess. Simple little statement, that I may have heard a thousand times before, but that day. WHAM. right in the back of the head. (LOL). So to me, the cross, is a reminder of that, my revelation, that i am indeed small but still he did that for me. Thats all I got tosay about that.........

Hi Greymare

I agree that it is good to remember what Christ did. I am suggesting that we can pervert it. There is an old Yiddish tale I am fond of that describes what I mean:

The Devil and an imp were on the street one day when they saw a man bend down and pick up a piece of the truth. The imp was terrified. He said to the Devil that now that the man has found a piece of the truth we will be discovered and all will be lost. The Devil smiled and looked at his imp friend telling him to calm down and not to worry. He said that even though the man did find a piece of the truth. we will help him organize it.

This is what happens in our psych. We take a sacred indication like the Cross and put it into the context of our ego needs and destroying its meaning in the process. The concept of Christ dying for us becomes a means for justifying precisely what we must sacrifice.

John 12

23Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

IMO the cross must also remind us that we must carry it to acquire what Christianity offers. Yet do we really know what this means? Do we know either what this cross is that we must carry or how to carry it?

Yet if the cross is only used to remind us that Jesus died for us it is easy to avoid contemplation of this great question. Yet John 12: 23 is a profound passage and it refers to the necessity of carrying ones cross which begins with the simple admittance that we are unable to do so. This humility is necessary to receive help from above. All denial and inner lies just blocks any help. To carry our cross means first to admit our inner lies and hypocrisy and to begin to experience what we lose by accepting their dominance of our psych. Yet they are always there and waiting to regain their control so we must carry them and allow the spiritual light to dissipate them It is a very gradual process since it is hard to do but these initial attempts are a necessary beginning..

I agree with you that Jesus died for these people but the reason wasn't to justify them but to provide the means not to justify fears and imagination but to allow the Spirit to help one grow from the inner psychological foundation of the truth of ourselves: what we are, in relation to our spiritual/conscious potential.

The symbol of the cross suggest that the intersection between the horizontal and vertical lines can be raised along the vertical line and the quality of our being increases. At the same time it suggests Jesus sacrifice and how we must honor it and carry the cross in order to inwardly profit from it.

The very fact that it has been abused through ignorance doesn't IMO warrant it becoming an object of ridicule as it does with what misguided people call "art."

It is ironic that sustaining qualities of worth requires real effort and the destruction of quality only requires selfish stupidity.

"Who were the fools who spread the story that brute force cannot kill ideas? Nothing is easier. And once they are dead they are no more than corpses." Simone Weil

 

[greymare]

sorry, Nick, too me, that is thinking too hard on the subject.
I dont see why it has to be pulled apart and disected.
Maybe its just a personal thing?

 

[Dream]

Here are a couple of relevant snippets from Language and Myth by Erst Cassiner {Dover Publications 103 pages, printed 1953 transl. Susanne K. Langer}

• (from page 7) For all mental processes fail to grasp reality itself, and in order to represent it, to hold it to all, they are driven to the use of symbols. But all symbolism harbors the curse of mediacy; it is bound to obscure what it seeks to reveal.
• (from page 9) If myth be really, as Max Müller's theory has it, nothing but the darkening shadow which language throws upon thought, it is mystifying indeed that this shadow should appear ever as an aura of its own light, should evolve a positive vitality and activity of its own, which tends to eclipse what we commonly call the immediate reality of things, so that even the wealth of empirical, sensuous experience pales before it. As Wilhelm von Hummboldt has said in connection with the language problem: "Man lives with his objects chiefly--in fact, since his feeling and acting depends on his perceptions, one may say exclusively--as language presents them to him. By the same process whereby he spins language out of his own being, he ensnares himself in it; and each language draws a magic circle round the people to which it belongs, a circle from which there is no escape save by stepping out of it into another."

 

[Thomas]

Today in the Catholic Lectionary the Gospel reading is from Matthew, the famous "Get thee behind me, Satan!" spoken to Peter.

It strikes at the heart of this discussion. The purpose of the Incarnation was the Salvation of man, the method was the Cross. From the moment Eve listened to that voice, the Cross was being erected on Golgotha.

Christ, in response to Peter's confession "You are the Christ, the son of the living God", begins to enlighten the disciples as to His fate, and makes preparation to go up to Jerusalem.

Peter takes Him aside, and argues against Him, thus earning his rebuke.

Peter's sin? He thought he knew better. He forgot He was a follower of Christ, not the leader.

If you can't look at the Cross, you can't look on Christ — You reduce Christianity to something nice, pleasant, warm and cuddly. The kind of Christianity that looks askance at one's neighbour in the pew.

Nice one, Greymare! That was a good epiphany.

Thomas

 

[Dream]

Here is probably the clearest reason for why Jesus was crucified which only requires checking a few references:

Jesus compared his being raised up on the cross to the raising up of the brass serpent on the pole a long time before him (story of Israel in the desert). By raising the serpent up on a pole, the serpent or what it represented, was being judged by God. Upon the cross the same was done to Jesus. That is the law of creatures put up on poles -- they are being held up for judgment. In Jesus' case, the judgment fell upon his flesh not the spirit of Christ within him (which is the word of life or the Way, spirit of wisdom etc.) Jesus told his disciples they must also take up crosses and follow him. Looking upon the cross means a Christian should see his or herself upon it, holding themselves up for judgment. It is not merely a looking, but a personal condemnation of the flesh through living as if they were spiritual beings. As the dying people in the desert were raised up by looking upon the serpent, so the men and women who condemn that which God also condemns are saved. To clarify and avoid complexity, this really should be seen according to Micah 6:8--> "It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."

Numbers 21:8 The poisonous serpent raised up
Deuteronomy 21:22 being raised up means Divine judgment
John 3:14 Jesus compares himself with the serpent that is raised up
Romans 8:3 explanation of condemnation of 'the flesh' through the cross
(extra: Genesis 3:13 serpent beguiles Eve | Genesis 4:7 Cain, sin, anger, serpent.)

Of course, some people will object that the serpent is satan, but satan is a concept illustrated best by these passages. It is the devil that was destroyed upon the cross (Hebrews 2:14) which was not resurrected with Jesus. To make the devil into more than an aspect of mankind is understandably interpreted by many as idolatry. People sometimes excuse themselve for their objectionable behavior by claiming the devil caused them to do something, and by doing so they look away from the cross and die of the serpent's poison by refusing to face and condemn it.

 

[Quahom1]

Here is probably the clearest reason for why Jesus was crucified which only requires checking a few references:

Jesus compared his being raised up on the cross to the raising up of the brass serpent on the pole a long time before him (story of Israel in the desert). By raising the serpent up on a pole, the serpent or what it represented, was being judged by God. Upon the cross the same was done to Jesus. That is the law of creatures put up on poles -- they are being held up for judgment. In Jesus' case, the judgment fell upon his flesh not the spirit of Christ within him (which is the word of life or the Way, spirit of wisdom etc.) Jesus told his disciples they must also take up crosses and follow him. Looking upon the cross means a Christian should see his or herself upon it, holding themselves up for judgment. It is not merely a looking, but a personal condemnation of the flesh through living as if they were spiritual beings. As the dying people in the desert were raised up by looking upon the serpent, so the men and women who condemn that which God also condemns are saved. To clarify and avoid complexity, this really should be seen according to Micah 6:8--> "It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."

Numbers 21:8 The poisonous serpent raised up
Deuteronomy 21:22 being raised up means Divine judgment
John 3:14 Jesus compares himself with the serpent that is raised up
Romans 8:3 explanation of condemnation of 'the flesh' through the cross

Of course, some people will object that the serpent is satan, but satan is a concept illustrated best by these passages. It is the devil that was destroyed upon the cross (Hebrews 2:14) which was not resurrected with Jesus. To make the devil into more than an aspect of mankind is understandably interpreted by many as idolatry. People sometimes excuse themselve for their objectionable behavior by claiming the devil caused them to do something, and by doing so they look away from the cross, which is to die of the serpent's poison by refusing to face and condemn it.

Rather complex, but true.

Or you could say "Jesus died for our sins", and then "rose to defeat death".

Which means, he took sin upon himself and suffered for it. Then he paid for and broke free from the consequences of sin (death), in order to show us all, that we could too. All we had to do, was/is, look to him for the way to do it.

Being coporial beings, we do have an advantage over the "devil"...we are so much stronger than he, but being the clever character that he is, he has an advantage over us, he can influeunce our thinking and emotions, powerfully.

Our "weakness" is our indecision.

 

[Nick_A]

sorry, Nick, too me, that is thinking too hard on the subject.
I dont see why it has to be pulled apart and disected.
Maybe its just a personal thing?

You raise a difficult but essential question. Religion is a personal thing but it is double edged. When it is used to justify our inadequacy it can lead to all the societal horrors we've witnessed such as religious wars and the personal horrors such as what results from alliance with cults. Yet a person's path must become personal if one is to profit from it. This means that we have to approach the path with the humility, quality of heart, and clear mindedness necessary to distinguish the value from the corruption. Such maturity is rather rare.

"I am not a Catholic; but I consider the Christian idea, which has its roots in Greek thought and in the course of the centuries has nourished all of our European civilization, as something that one cannot renounce without becoming degraded." Simone Weil

Here she suggests that Christianity like the Cross, is something of great value but open to attempts at corruption.

The division between science and religion is only due to the results of corruption. There is no essential division. I believe that we will either regain the natural connection or we will perish from our own selfish stupidity.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Einstein

A minority will admit to it but most will not. They prefer to retain their unnatural separation.

Christian cosmology will serve as a necessary means to unite them in the future if still posible in the Western world and it will come through the efforts of those understanding the essence of Christian Platonism

E. Jane Doering (ed.), Eric O. Springsted (ed.) - The Christian Platonism of Simone Weil - Reviewed by Jeffrey Bloechl, College of the Holy Cross - Philosophical Reviews - University of Notre Dame

The Western mind is captivated by science and there is nothing essentially wrong with it. The harm comes when Man is compelled to serve science rather than science serving the inner Man within the higher context of spiritual reality and Man's connection with higher consciousness.

The Cross suggests that knowledge of science can be placed in a more favorable perspective the closer mankind is to becoming the "New man"

It does require thought because it is the scientific method. Yet for those with a simultaneous interest in science and religion, they will think and try to regain what was lost through unnatural separation normal for corruption.

I agree that religious concepts hidden within their symbols and myths are personal. I do however question the ramifications of "personal" when they are an aspect of any form of escapism. I've seen the horrors of it and have no need to cater to it.

The eventual unification of science and religion and the part carrying our cross plays in cleaning out our psychological inner corruption that keeps them separate includes respect for the many meanings of the Cross and how it connects "above and below" in the cosmological sense.

If our species is to survive the next hundred years, I believe that Simone's following observation will have become common sense. Now most are unwilling to even contemplate it preferring the security of an unnatural division between science and religion. Yet becoming open to carrying ones cross to confront the security of our escapism and to purify oneself will open a person to what became so obvious to Simone:

"I believe that one identical thought is to be found--expressed very precisely and with only slight differences of modality-- in. . .Pythagoras, Plato, and the Greek Stoics. . .in the Upanishads, and the Bhagavad Gita; in the Chinese Taoist writings and. . .Buddhism. . .in the dogmas of the Christian faith and in the writings of the greatest Christian mystics. . .I believe that this thought is the truth, and that it today requires a modern and Western form of expression. That is to say, it should be expressed through the only approximately good thing we can call our own, namely science. This is all the less difficult because it is itself the origin of science." Simone Weil....Simone Pétrement, Simone Weil: A Life, Random House, 1976, p. 488

The question becomes how long our escapist pettiness will deny society as a whole recognition of the obvious. The process of becoming open to recognizing the obvious will include pondering the many meanings hidden within the extraordinary sacred symbols including what we call the Cross.