I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses

[walter]

And do ALL of those in the 2nd resurrection live forever? Will they ONLY be physical with no hope of ever being spiritual?

I could not find any scriptures to answer your specific questions, but the Bible does explain some will inherit the Earth and dwell upon it forever.

Septuagint Translation - The Septuagint Lxx Bible is the scriptures in Greek which dates before the first century.
Psalms 37:29 "But the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever".
Psalms 37:11 "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." and Matthew 5:5

 

[moralorel]

- Inheritance in the heavens: 1 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 3:1, Philippians 3:14 
- Mark 12:25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. NIV
Note: There is no scripture that says they will become angels, but I would assume they would have some sort of Spiritual or Heavenly body, since their Inheritance is in heaven. 1 Cor 15:42-44

I will do some research and see what scriptures that I can find that would provide any answers to your questions, if possible.

Thanks for getting back to me.

1 Peter 1:3-4 says that the inheritance is kept in heaven. It does not say that people go to heaven.
Hebrews 3:1 says our calling comes from heaven.
Philippians 3:14 once again refers to responding to a higher calling.

I know that there are many different translations, but nothing here says people go to heaven after death.

Yes, it does say that people will be spiritual. Agreed. But headed right to heaven? Not so sure about that one.

I'm not even convinced that heaven will still exist. What is the purpose of it if God will be dwelling on earth with His people?

 

[walter]

My Church or Leader is ultimately the Bible.. I can explain why I believe something with the Bible alone.

For example I believe in these fundamental beliefs and I let the Bible do all the talking and explaining, I don't have to add any commentary.

- Salvation is a free gift. read these scriptures...
- I observe all Jesus words. read these scriptures...
- I observe all the Bible words. read these scriptures...
- Many inherit the Earth living forever upon it and a little flock inherits heaven and they become priests and judges.. scriptures...
- God gave specific instructions to Moses to engage in war with enemy nations, Jesus gave new instructions on how we are to treat our neighbors, our brothers and sisters and even our enemies. [ We have brothers and sisters in every nation totaling 1,108 languages. ]
- All our fundamental beliefs can be explained with scriptures alone.
- When the Bible does not directly address a topic, Jehovah's Witnesses rely on Bible principles and an informed conscience to make decisions. They research relevant scriptures, and pray for wisdom.

 

[walter]

Thanks for getting back to me.

So what do you believe exactly about Heaven and the new Earth?

Do you have any fundamental beliefs?

 

[Thomas]

1. I feel Jesus and the apostles have given sufficient instructions to not engage in war anymore.

What, then, should we do in the face of the various invasions of Europe – the Mongols in the 13th century, for example, or the Nazis in the 20th? I agree he taught the way of peace, but I'm not sure he was a pacifist?

"Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword." (Matthew 10:34)

"Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Matthew 26:52)

6. Does the Bible teach salvation is a free gift? Yes.

Yes. There is nothing that entitles us to it.

7. Do we get salvation from our actions or are obedience of the scriptures? No. It is by God's Grace and Jesus sacrifice, not from anything we have done or will do.

I disagree. What we do brings us closer to, or further from, God. Jesus said what we have to do to attain eternal life.

The Reformation tried to separate 'faith' and 'works' – the former means everything, the latter nothing. I don't see the two as separate. What we believe shapes what we do. Faith calls for action.

8. Why do we obey Jesus words and the other instructions in the Bible?
Because Jesus words instruct us to observe his commands Matthew 12:50, 28:20; John 14:23, 15:14 And put into practice the other words in the Bible Luke 8:21, Romans 15:4

By the same token, are we not bound to Sacred Tradition, as per Matthew 16:16-19, 18:16-20?

9. What does Jesus say about the majority and the few finding life? Matthew 7:13-14; Luke 13:24, John 3:36 says some "will not see life"

Is he saying that, or is he warning that?

John 3:36 says:
"He who has faith in the Son has the life of that age; and the one rejecting the Son will not see life, but God’s ire rests upon him."
(Emphasis on 'of that age', which English interprets as eternal, and as well discussed, that's not what the Greek necessarily means.)

As I understand it, the Father has given everything to the Son (cf John 3:35), and it is the Father's will that all shall be saved (1 Corinthians 15:22, 1 Timothy 2:4, 4:10). Christ's sacrifice achieved just that (John 19:30). Are all those saved sinless? No, of course not (Mark 10:18) – everyone sins, none are perfect in the eyes of God, but they are made so – and I cannot accept there is anything a human can do that a God cannot fix.

It is we who determine degrees of sin. These are a little bit bad, these are worse, those are the worst. So do we suppose Christ saves only those who are a little bit bad, or perhaps them and some of the worse, and so on? You end up splitting hairs. You end up deciding that at some point God draws a line ... it all seems a bit too human for my liking.

In my view, only those why reject the love of God are damned, by their own choice, and when faced, after death, with the truth in and of Christ, when we see through a glass clearly, as it were, and not obscured as we do now, then why would anyone reject love?

As long as one soul suffers in hell, there can be no peace in heaven.

+++

Anyway, just my two pennyworth.

 

[Clear]

Walter claimed: “Do we get salvation from our actions or are obedience of the scriptures? No. It is by God's Grace and Jesus sacrifice, not from anything we have done or will do.”

Thomas disagreed: “I disagree. What we do brings us closer to, or further from, God. Jesus said what we have to do to attain eternal life. The Reformation tried to separate 'faith' and 'works' – the former means everything, the latter nothing. I don't see the two as separate. What we believe shapes what we do. Faith calls for action.”


I have to agree with Thomas on this specific point.

The silliness of creating a “new and improved” Christian religion where the individual has no choice nor responsibility to be obedient to any commandments or instructions from God yet is rewarded the same as those who try their best to obey God is strange (to me).

I do not see any advantage of creating another new Christian religion that has no logical advantage over the earliest form of Christianity.

Walter, why should this new "easy believism" your religious movement has created and adopted take priority over the earliest form of Christianity described by the ancient Christians themselves? Why leave the early and more authentic for the late and less authentic with it's different interpretations of biblical text?

 

[walter]

Thomas and Clear I don't think that one scripture cancels out the other, I feel we should consider each scripture as important information, so we can draw a more complete understanding.​

I will try my best to address one point at a time, considering all the scriptures I can find on the subject. I will say very little and let the Bible do most of the talking. My words themselves are not that important.

I will list the many scriptures I can find.. Please draw your own understandings from every scripture not from my words. My objective is not to prove anyone wrong my objective is list the relevant scriptures and let people draw their own conclusions.

 

[moralorel]

So what do you believe exactly about Heaven and the new Earth?

Do you have any fundamental beliefs?

I don't see the need for heaven nor do I see evidence that people will go to heaven after death.

I started reading the Bible at a very young age and ended up with a much different perspective on life and death than most people who read that book. So I don't have any "fundamental beliefs", assuming you mean beliefs that come from a church.

I'm also not trying to push any beliefs, just in case you wondered so. It's just that I grew up with many JW's and my sister joined the same church. But every time we talked about the subject of life after death, our conversations went sour. Some friends weren't allowed to talk to me anymore because my beliefs were in disagreement with their church. I got farther with you than any JW, even a minister. So I do thank-you for at least giving it an honest shot.

 

[Clear]

1) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT MANKINDS AGENCY, ATTITUDE, AND ACTIONS, HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION

Clear said: I have to agree with Thomas on this specific point.

The silliness of creating a “new and improved” Christian religion where the individual has no choice nor responsibility to be obedient to any commandments or instructions from God yet is rewarded the same as those who try their best to obey God is strange (to me).

I do not see any advantage of creating another new Christian religion that has no logical advantage over the earliest form of Christianity.

Walter, why should this new "easy believism" your religious movement has created and adopted take priority over the earliest form of Christianity described by the ancient Christians themselves? Why leave the early and more authentic for the late and less authentic with it's different interpretations of biblical text?


2) FINDING A HUNDRED IMPROPER INTERPRETATIONS IS NOT AS VALUABLE AS 10 HISTORICALLY CORRECT INTERPRETATIONS

Walter said; "I will try my best to address one point at a time, considering all the scriptures I can find on the subject.

Walter, I appreciate that you want to make your new religion reasonable (somehow...) but unless you can give readers some reason as to why your new and more modern religion with it’s interpretations of the biblical text take priority over ancient Judeo-Christian religion with it’s different interpretations, then biblical texts you offer are somewhat irrelevant.

WHY should your textual interpretations and beliefs take priority over the textual interpretations and beliefs the ancient Christians describe?.


Walter said: “I will list the many scriptures I can find.”

Walter, this is an irrelevant, meaningless, and silly undertaking if your interpretations of the scriptures are incorrect. Individuals are not criticizing the scriptures themselves, but they are criticizing your interpretation of the scriptures which underlies your new religious theology.

WHY should your modern religion with it’s interpretations and beliefs take priority over the ancient Christian religion described by the ancient Christians themselves?

IF, your religion with it’s interpretations of ancient texts are incorrect, then it doesn’t matter how many texts you offer.

 

[walter]

1) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT MANKINDS AGENCY, ATTITUDE, AND ACTIONS, HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION

I made some comments about salvation my words were not inclusive to the entire Bible, are you looking for a extensive list of all the scriptures that are relevant to everlasting life and salvation?

There are many things that have to do with salvation including the ones you mentioned. I only listed a few of them, is it necessary that this needs to be a debate about so many words?

My words are not inclusive to the entire Bible, i'm sure there is always more scriptures that shed more light and truth.

 

[walter]

What Does the Bible Say About Producing Fruit?

Bible verses about Producing Fruit

www.openbible.info

I found this site with only scriptures about producing fruit. I thought the scriptures were relevant.

Clear thank you for all your advice and insights. And here are a few others.. I thought this website was nice because it has only scriptures.

What Does the Bible Say About Obedience?

Bible verses about Obedience

www.openbible.info

What Does the Bible Say About Faith And Works?

Bible verses about Faith And Works

www.openbible.info

 

[walter]

What Does the Bible Say About Who Hears These Words Of Mine And Does?

Bible verses about Who Hears These Words Of Mine And Does

www.openbible.info

I could put in any words at the top and it will give the relevant scriptures below, I thought this was a pretty good website.

 

[walter]

I feel if we want to be in touch with theology from ancient Christianity we should find our answers to our questions in the New Testament, we can probably listen to people that advise us but ultimately shouldn't our best information come from the Bible?

 

[Clear]

Hello Walter. Thank you for the links.

I typically do not even look at links or videos since I am more interested in what you think than what others think (though I understand the borrowing of the thoughts of others that seem well said).

In your case, I visited the first link. However, the verses seem to undermine your claim that man has no agency or role in engaging in the process of salvation. Thus, I am not sure why you offered them given your stated position.

For example, the first verse in the list is James 2:14-26 which begins by telling us: “What [is] the profit my brothers if someone claims to have faith but no actions (labors, works, etc.)? That faith is unable to save him. … And thus, that faith, if is has no action (labor, works, etc.) is dead by itself... For just as the body without [the] spirit is dead, so also that faith without action (labor, works, etc) is dead."

What does this verse mean to you?

Is God referring to HIS own faith or to the faith of the individual? (I think it is referring to the individuals faith and not Gods faith.)

In speaking of Clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, comforting the uncomforted; WHO is to do the clothing, the feeding, the comforting; God or the individual being referenced? (I think the individual is to manifest their faith by choices and actions and not God who should clothe, feed and comfort in this case)

Faith, in this verse, is described as being "dead" without being manifested by actions/labor/works;
Is this referring to Gods Faith or the faith of the individual who does not engage in actions/labor/works?
(I think the text refers to the faith of the individual being dead and not Gods faith)

IF, it is the individual who is referenced as needing to manifest their faith by actions, then why would you conclude the opposite?
Why conclude no desires, actions or engagement of man are involved in authentic Christianity?
Can you clarify?

 

[walter]

However, the verses seem to undermine your claim that man has no agency or role in engaging in the process of salvation. Thus, I am not sure why you offered them given your stated position.

I have no claim.. Every scripture in God's word the Bible is important to our Everlasting life. -- My own personal words are not important. The only thing that is important to me is what is written down in the New Testament and the rest of the Bible.

Luke 8:21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.” NIV

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[walter]

However, the verses seem to undermine your claim that man has no agency or role in engaging in the process of salvation. Thus, I am not sure why you offered them given your stated position.

Why did I offer my position? Some people feel that salvation is only a free gift, salvation would come from following all the scriptures relevant to the subject.

I believe it is a "free gift" that is given to humans out of "God's grace", it is not something that is earned by any kind of work, but there is scripture that says we should observe all Jesus commands, listen to God's word and put it into practice, and there are consequences for those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. Matthew 28:19-20, Luke 8:21, 2 Thessalonians 1:8

What Does the Bible Say About Salvation Is A Free Gift?

Bible verses about Salvation Is A Free Gift

www.openbible.info

What Does the Bible Say About Hears These Words Of Mine And Does Them?

Bible verses about Hears These Words Of Mine And Does Them

www.openbible.info

What Does the Bible Say About Will Not Get Life?

Bible verses about Will Not Get Life

www.openbible.info

I thank you for all your information and every little bit helps everyone learn more. Your words have helped me to be more thorough in my comments and scriptures and understanding. I am still learning thank you.

 

[Clear]

1) MAKING A CLAIM AND DENYING MAKING A CLAIM ISN’T LOGICAL AND IS CONFUSING TO INDIVIDUALS EXPECTING A LOGICAL CONVERSATION

Walter offered a link: “I found this site with only scriptures about producing fruit. I thought the scriptures were relevant.”

Clear replied: “…I visited the first link. However, the verses seem to undermine your claim that man has no agency or role in engaging in the process of salvation. Thus, I am not sure why you offered them given your stated position.”

Walter responded: “I have no claim.. “

Of course you made a claim Walter.
Your claim was: “It is by God's Grace and Jesus sacrifice, not from anything we have done or will do.”


2) OFFERING INCORRECT TRRANSLATIONS OF THE SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR THEOLOGY IS NOT HELPFUL

Walter said : “2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, ….”

Except the Greek source text doesn’t actually say this, does it?

Notice: The Greek source text says: “πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος...”

YOUR version renders "γραφη" as "scripture". Why did you do this?
YOUR version adds the non-existent verb “is” in the wrong place (there is no verb "is" in the original text in the place where you put it.) Why did you do this?
YOUR version, in a worse abuse, turns the adjective ("God-inspired") into a non existent verbal phrase ("breathed out by God"), thus producing a bogus translation. Why did you do this?

You claim that you use the scriptures as the primary source for your theology. However, don’t you think that it would be better to know what the scriptures actually say before trying to use inaccurate text to either create your interpretations, and theology, and offering inaccurate texts as evidence for your theology?

Can you explain HOW this specific scripture is logically relevant to your claim that individuals have no participation in acquiring salvation?

Will you also offer why you think your last example that "dead faith" of James 2 in your reference (i.e. faith without actions of an individual), can save anyone?

 

[walter]

1) MAKING A CLAIM AND DENYING MAKING A CLAIM ISN’T LOGICAL AND IS CONFUSING TO INDIVIDUALS EXPECTING A LOGICAL CONVERSATION

Walter offered a link: “I found this site with only scriptures about producing fruit. I thought the scriptures were relevant.”

Clear replied: “…I visited the first link. However, the verses seem to undermine your claim that man has no agency or role in engaging in the process of salvation. Thus, I am not sure why you offered them given your stated position.”

Walter responded: “I have no claim.. “

Of course you made a claim Walter.
Your claim was: “It is by God's Grace and Jesus sacrifice, not from anything we have done or will do.”


2) OFFERING INCORRECT TRRANSLATIONS OF THE SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR THEOLOGY IS NOT HELPFUL

Walter said : “2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, ….”

Except the Greek source text doesn’t actually say this, does it?

Notice: The Greek source text says: “πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος...”

YOUR version renders "γραφη" as "scripture". Why did you do this?
YOUR version adds the non-existent verb “is” in the wrong place (there is no verb "is" in the original text in the place where you put it.
YOUR version, in a worse abuse, turns the adjective ("God-inspired") into a non existent verbal phrase ("breathed out by God), thus producing a bogus translation.

You claim that you use the scriptures as the primary source for your theology. However, don’t you think that it would be better to know what the scriptures actually say before trying to use inaccurate text to either create your interpretations, and theology, and offering inaccurate texts as evidence for your theology?

Can you explain HOW this specific scripture is logically relevant to your claim that individuals have no participation in acquiring salvation?

Will you also offer why you think your last example that "dead faith" of James 2 in your reference (i.e. faith without actions of an individual), can save anyone?

I see you like to debate about so many words. I don't find it useful to prove other people wrong and carry on an endless debate.

I like to list the scriptures that help me to form a belief, and read the scriptures that help others form beliefs. I feel that everybody has the right to believe the way they want to believe. I have a feeling that you would debate what I said even if I said nothing and listed only scriptures.

Sorry I'm not good at debates.

 

[walter]

This information has nothing to do with this thread. I couldn't believe my ears hearing the details, it was so terrible.

On the Dr Phil show today they talked about, in 1992 a 12-year-old girl that was (beaten, stabbed, and strangled), and burned to death by four other teenage girls, aged 15-17. in Indiana.

• Outcome: All four girls were tried as adults and found guilty. They have all since been released from prison after serving their sentences.

 

[Clear]

Walter said: “I see you like to debate about so many words. I don't find it useful to prove other people wrong and carry on an endless debate.”

Walter, the usefulness of discovery of error (we ALL have, including me), is that it gives us a chance to abandon error and to adopt more correct models of theology. One great challenge (for all of us) is to abandon our pride and to be humble enough to abandon comfortable errors in our search for true religious principles.


Walter said: “I like to list the scriptures that help me to form a belief, and read the scriptures that help others form beliefs.”
I understand and think this is a very admirable desire and do not fault this at all. The problem with offering incorrect scriptures, or incorrect interpretation of sacred texts is that to the degree that we accept and offer errors to others, we do not serve Gods purposes regardless of our good intent. So, one can honor the intent while criticizing the error.



Walter said: “I feel that everybody has the right to believe the way they want to believe.”
I think this is an honorable and correct attitude and think you are perfectly correct to feel this way. However, this does not mean that errors cannot or should not be pointed out, while allowing one to believe error if they still desire to.



Walter said: “I have a feeling that you would debate what I said even if I said nothing and listed only scriptures.”
You are in error on this point.
If you simply post a scripture without context, I might have asked for clarification, such as “Why did you post a scripture without context?” or “What does the scripture mean to you?” or similar questions.

This does not represent disinterest or simple criticism for criticisms sake, but rather it is a desire to understand what you were trying to accomplish and what you think the text means. I do not know much about the many, more modern Christian schisms that have developed. I would like to be less ignorant on them.

My questions are a manifestation of interest and a value of your opinion and not a disinterest in your opinions.



Walter said: “Sorry I'm not good at debates.”
That is perfectly fine.

I do NOT view our discussion as a debate (at least not at this point), but rather I am trying to discover the logic underlying why you adopted your current theology and why you think your theology takes priority over the ancient Christian religion with its theology.

This is why I have asked (repeatedly), why you think your new and modern religion should take priority over the ancient form of Christianity as described by the ancient Christians in their literature.

I do admit that I am disappointed in not having this, specific, question answered. If you remember, the very first post introduces a new Member of the Jehovahs Witness theology who said : "Ask me anything about my beliefs, if you want".

I was simply taking the Jehovahs Witness up on the offer.


As I said before, I honor you for being willing to discuss your religion with others in a format that is uncomfortable.
However, if you'd like, we both can stop at this point and leave these questions unanswered. I don't want you to feel like you are, somehow, being singled out for undue criticism.