Paul’s Christology = diaspora Christology + Jesus?

Longfellow

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I’m thinking that maybe everything that Paul said about Jesus was what diaspora Jews already believed about one figure or another in the scriptures, and that Paul simply combined them into one person and identified that person with Jesus. That might be what happened on the road to Damascus. In his interrogations of Christians he might have heard things about their Jesus that matched what Diaspora Jews believed about one figure or another, and thought he was an impostor, until he saw that light and heard that voice, then it all came together, literally in a flash.
 
Also, another innovation was saying that people could enter the kingdom without being or becoming Jews, which I think is what made Christianity a new religion separate from Judaism, and not because it identified Jesus with diaspora divine agents.
 
Calling diaspora heavenly figures “Christology” was a mistake and I regret it. I do think that’s where Paul’s Christology came from, but that is not a reason to call them that in the diaspora.
 
Peace to all,

So true, Saint Paul with Saint Peter gave the Pentecost to the Gentiles in Corinth, I believe.

Peace always,
Stephen
 
I’m thinking that maybe everything that Paul said about Jesus was what diaspora Jews already believed about one figure or another in the scriptures, and that Paul simply combined them into one person and identified that person with Jesus.
Isn't that in line with the idea of Jesus fulfilling the Messianic expectation of the Jews? Matthew's Gospel argues just that?

That might be what happened on the road to Damascus. In his interrogations of Christians he might have heard things about their Jesus that matched what Diaspora Jews believed about one figure or another, and thought he was an impostor, until he saw that light and heard that voice, then it all came together, literally in a flash.
Somethig along those lines.

I tend to follow the school that thinks that after his Damascus event, Saul withdrew to Arabia (with its spiritual links for a zealous Jew) where he spent some years – as many as 14 – coming to terms with what had happened, but emerges as 'Christian' and then continues to Damascus where he receives the Gospel from Ananias, and presumably is baptised there ...
 
Isn't that in line with the idea of Jesus fulfilling the Messianic expectation of the Jews? Matthew's Gospel argues just that?


Somethig along those lines.

I tend to follow the school that thinks that after his Damascus event, Saul withdrew to Arabia (with its spiritual links for a zealous Jew) where he spent some years – as many as 14 – coming to terms with what had happened, but emerges as 'Christian' and then continues to Damascus where he receives the Gospel from Ananias, and presumably is baptised there ...
Thank you. It looks to me like Paul was baptized within a few days after his encounter with Jesus, then went into the wilderness, most likely for 40 days, then spent three more years in Damascus, before going to Jerusalem.
 
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Possibly. It's difficult to trace exactly what Paul was up to, where and when, there are various theories. How many times did he visit Jerusalem, Damascus, and 'Arabia' ...
 
Peace to all,

Saint Paul was a Sadusee, I believe, and saw the faithful light on the way to Damascus.

Peace always,
Stephen
 
Peace to all,

Yes correct, I mean a Pharisee, and on the Road to Damascus he saw the Faithful light, right? What does a Pharasee do?

Peace always,
Stephen
 
I want to spell this out some more because I don’t know if what I’m thinking is controversial, obvious to everyone, or somewhere in between.

I’m thinking that everything in the writings of Paul that is called “high Christology” is actually diaspora cosmology translated into Hellenistc language, based on the same scriptures that are evoked in the Synoptics and Acts.

——

"High Christology Feature","Diaspora Heavenly-Figure Motif"
"Pre-existence","Wisdom; Logos; Son of Man; Heavenly Adam"
"Agent of creation","Wisdom; Logos; Word"
"Cosmic sustainer / ruler","Wisdom; Logos; Son of Man"
"Enthronement beside God","Son of Man; Enochic exaltation; Melchizedek"
"Universal judgment","Son of Man; Elect One; Melchizedek"
"Heavenly intercession","Enoch; Moses; Melchizedek"
"Bearer of the divine Name","Angel of the Lord; The Name; Glory"
"Image of God","Heavenly Adam; Wisdom; Glory"
"Pre-existent redeemer/deliverer","Son of Man; Elect One; Melchizedek"
"Mediator of revelation","Logos; Wisdom; Angel of the Lord"
"Cosmic lordship","Logos; Son of Man; Angelic vice-regents"

——

"High Christology Feature","Scriptural Referent (echoed in Synoptics/Acts)"
"Pre-existence","Proverbs 8; Daniel 7; Wisdom sayings; Son of Man sayings"
"Agent of creation","Genesis 1; Psalm 33:6; Proverbs 8; Jesus’ authority over nature; 'the word' in Acts"
"Cosmic sustainer / ruler","Daniel 7; Proverbs 8; dominion sayings; exorcisms"
"Enthronement beside God","Daniel 7; Jesus’ trial saying; Stephen’s vision in Acts 7"
"Universal judgment","Daniel 7; Isaiah 11; Psalm 2; judgment parables; Acts’ preaching"
"Heavenly intercession","Exodus 32–34; Psalm 110; Jesus’ prayer for disciples; Stephen’s vision"
"Bearer of the divine Name","Exodus 23:20–21; Deuteronomy 12; Ezekiel 1; 'in my name' sayings; Transfiguration"
"Image of God","Genesis 1; Psalm 8; Ezekiel 1; Son of Man language; Transfiguration"
"Pre-existent redeemer/deliverer","Daniel 7; Isaiah 42/53; Psalm 110; mission statements; Acts’ liberation themes"
"Mediator of revelation","Exodus 3; Proverbs 8; Psalm 33:6; teaching authority; Acts’ 'word of the Lord'"
"Cosmic lordship","Daniel 7; Psalm 110; authority over demons, nature, forgiveness"
 
I want to spell this out some more ...
I think you'd have to go into more detail to be precise.

I’m thinking that everything in the writings of Paul that is called “high Christology” is actually diaspora cosmology translated into Hellenistc language, based on the same scriptures that are evoked in the Synoptics and Acts.
Generally, I agree – there is a school of thought (I can dig out the references) that argues that the writings address a given audience, and that audience must have a context within which to understand the writings. If there was no context, then the reader would have difficulty fathoming what the writer was going on about, and what that means.

That last bit can also mean, is what we deduce from the text, in light of 2,000 years of Christian thought, the same as what the writer intended?

By the same token, Paul's congregation will receive the letters and interpret them according to their understanding, so there has to be a ground of understanding that Paul is building on, to say what he says and thinks is unique about Christ.

David Armstrong writes:
"Jewish and gentile followers of Yeshua or Jesus of Nazareth, who came to believe that he was christos and Kyrios – that is, a divine and deified messiah – also narrativized his divinity in ways that consciously or unconsciously assimilated him to common Mediterranean and Near Eastern expectations of divinity. Many aspects of Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and ascension as reported in the Gospels or by Paul evoke no direct parallel from Jewish Scripture, even if they draw on scriptural texts to make the case, but are more directly and easily compared with the panoply of demigods, heroes, and other divinized humans readily available in surrounding Greco-Roman culture.

"This is not a reductionist fallacy of presuming that the Evangelists wrote the story to make Jesus like these other demigods; it is the acknowledgement that the thoroughly Jewish Jesus that the Evangelists want to talk about is, because thoroughly Jewish, also simultaneously Greco-Roman, and that the dominant cultural models for reception and interpretation that would have been available to their audiences were to be drawn from these mythic resources. Jesus turns water into wine in John not to say “Jesus is Dionysos,” but also not not to say that; Jesus’ corporeal immortalization and theonymy through ascent are similar to those of Asklepios, Herakles, and Romulus without being strictly equatable with them. The principle here – exploited rather than ignored or hushed by early Christian writers – is that Jesus is like these figures but exceeds them and so is the paradigm for them, of which they are the shadows, preparatory iterations, and demonic mimicries."
YHWH and Christ Among the Gods
 
I think you'd have to go into more detail to be precise.

• Wisdom (Ḥokmah / Sophia)• pre‑existent
• with God at creation
• descends to dwell among humans
• judges and vindicates the righteous

• The Word (Logos / Memra)• agent of creation
• revealer of God
• mediator between God and the world

• The Name (Ha‑Shem)• a quasi‑hypostasis
• bears divine authority
• can “dwell” or “go before” Israel

• The Glory (Kavod)• radiant, enthroned presence
• appears in visions
• sometimes functions like a distinct figure

• Enoch / Metatron• transformed into a heavenly scribe
• enthroned
• judge of the wicked

• Moses• radiant, heavenly man
• mediator of revelation
• sometimes portrayed as pre‑existent in diaspora texts

• Adam (Heavenly Adam)• cosmic archetype
• image of God
• ruler over creation

• The Angel of the Lord• speaks as God
• receives worship
• forgives sins

• Michael• heavenly prince
• defender of Israel
• eschatological warrior

• Gabriel• revealer of divine mysteries
• interpreter of visions

• The “Two Powers” figures• a second divine authority beside God

• The Son of Man (Daniel / 1 Enoch)• pre‑existent
• enthroned beside God
• judge of the nations
• receives universal dominion

• The Elect One / Righteous One (Enochic)• vindicator of the righteous
• destroyer of the wicked
• cosmic ruler

• Melchizedek (Qumran)• heavenly priest
• proclaims liberty
• judges Belial and the nations
 
Diaspora cosmology already had all that, and had already fused it with Greek philosophy. Paul’s innovation, besides identifying all of it with Jesus, was to re-imagine everything in ways that could be understood by gentiles, without the Jewish context.
 
Paul's 'High Christology' sees Jesus not only as the sum of all that, but more, as his 'resurrection' teachings evidence.

As stated above, the idea of 'resurrection' was not unknown, but what the resurrection means to humanity as a whole, and not just to the resurrected Jesus, was something quite distinct, I think.

Couple Paul's 'High Christology' with John's, and we're very much breaking ground, I think.
 
Peace to all,

Paul brought Faith the Gentiles. The Pentecost for the Gentiles is in Corinth with Saint Peter. Saint Paul defines the Created Soul becoming from the Spirit becoming through the Flesh becoming in One Body.

Peace always,
Stephen
 
The Pentecost for the Gentiles is in Corinth with Saint Peter.
The Pentecost for the Gentiles occurs at Cesarea, in the house of Cornelius, centurion of the Italian Cohort, as recorded in Acts 10.

"While Peter was still uttering these words, the Spirit, the Holy One, fell upon all those listening to the discourse, and the faithful among the circumcised, as many as had accompanied Peter, were astonished, because the gift of the Holy Spirit has been poured out even upon the gentiles ... Then Peter spoke up: "Can anyone forbid the water for baptising these persons, who have also received the Spirit, the Holy One, just as we did?" And he instructed them to be baptised in the name of Jesus ... " (10:44-45, 47-48)

This happened prior to the founding of the church in Corinth. St Peter is recorded as having preached there, but this was long after the Gentile Pentecost.

Saint Paul defines the Created Soul becoming from the Spirit becoming through the Flesh becoming in One Body.
The language here is somewhat obscure, so I don't quite follow.

I'm guessing English is not your first language?
 
The language here is somewhat obscure, so I don't quite follow.

I'm guessing English is not your first language?
Actually, @Stephen Andrew is from the USA, from the state of Maine specifically. He is capable of writing normative English, but for some reason he prefers to write in a manner that is difficult to understand. On another forum he and I have had conversation about this. Furthermore, there are several other folks on that forum who have said the same thing. Stephen Andrew has acknowledged this, but does nothing to change it.
 
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