Why did God created Adam and Eve ?

soleil10

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God is an incorporeal and invivible being. God’s purpose in creating Adam and Eve was, to acquire a body.
God’s purpose in creating them in His image was to have dominion over the incorporeal and the corporal world through them. They would have become the first substantial parents in God’s external form multiplying children. Then the spiritual world and the physical world would be connected through human beings.
If instead of falling, Adam and Eve had grown to maturity, flourished on earth and gone to heaven, they would have been one with the invisible God.
 
Hi soleil10,
I thought and think that G!D is a perfect being. That would be in every way that is imaginable and unimaginable to the human mind. Why would G!D create, as you propose here, an extension of Himself that would be born to fail?
Joe
 
Hi soleil10,
I thought and think that G!D is a perfect being. That would be in every way that is imaginable and unimaginable to the human mind. Why would G!D create, as you propose here, an extension of Himself that would be born to fail?
Joe
Simple, its all a load of naive nonsense to explain that which the peoples of history could not know. We evolved, we were not created.
 
Hi Soleil10 —

God’s purpose in creating Adam and Eve was, to acquire a body.
In the Abrahamic Traditions, God is One, Perfect, Simple, Absolute ... God is that to which nothing can de added, and nothing taken away; He cannot grow nor diminish, increase nor decrease ... so He has no need to acquire anything.

God’s purpose in creating them in His image was to have dominion over the incorporeal and the corporal world through them.
Well as God is the Alpha and the Omega of all things, corporeal and incorporeal, and as God is the logoi of all things, corporeal and incorporeal, then His dominion exists by virtue of that fact that He holds all things in being. So again, I'm not sure this argument works.

They would have become the first substantial parents in God’s external form multiplying children.
Remember that although we are image and likeness, neither term implies the same nature or substance.

If instead of falling, Adam and Eve had grown to maturity, flourished on earth and gone to heaven, they would have been one with the invisible God.
Actually that's an interesting question, and perhaps something of an assumption. The Fathers asked, if Adam and Eve had not fallen, would the Incarnation of the Son be necessary? Their answer was yes.

Remember Adam and Eve were created carnal beings, but in the Grace of Christ we are spiritual beings.

Thomas
 
Hi Soleil10 —

In the Abrahamic Traditions, God is One, Perfect, Simple, Absolute ... God is that to which nothing can de added, and nothing taken away; He cannot grow nor diminish, increase nor decrease ... so He has no need to acquire anything.

Well as God is the Alpha and the Omega of all things, corporeal and incorporeal, and as God is the logoi of all things, corporeal and incorporeal, then His dominion exists by virtue of that fact that He holds all things in being. So again, I'm not sure this argument works.

Remember that although we are image and likeness, neither term implies the same nature or substance.

Actually that's an interesting question, and perhaps something of an assumption. The Fathers asked, if Adam and Eve had not fallen, would the Incarnation of the Son be necessary? Their answer was yes.

Remember Adam and Eve were created carnal beings, but in the Grace of Christ we are spiritual beings.

Thomas

Hi Thomas

We are part of God's creation. God wants to have a relationship with his children. Our life on earth is our opportunity to grow our spirit and our love. It takes two to have a relationship of love. God cannot experience love by himself.

God gave us free will because He wants to have a true relationship of love. Because of the fall we have to return to Him. His dominion is based on love. His essence and His motivation is love.

He does not change the principles under which He created.

What do you mean by "The fathers?"

If Adam and Eve had not fallen, there would have been no need for religions and no need for a Messiah. The first couple would have given birth to sinless children and then families, tribes, clans, nations would have expanded from there. There was no need for a second Adam to come.
Adam and Eve have a physical body and a spiritual body. After the fall our spiritual senses were pretty much lost. We became separated from God.
 
Hi soleil10,
I thought and think that G!D is a perfect being. That would be in every way that is imaginable and unimaginable to the human mind. Why would G!D create, as you propose here, an extension of Himself that would be born to fail?
Joe

Hi Joe
God's motivation to create was love. Before life, love is.
God cannot experience love alone and say all day long how much He loves himself. He takes two for love to exist.
He did not create man and woman for them to fail. He gave them free will because true love requires free will otherwise, it would no be love.

God's heart is broken by what his children are doing. It is up to us to come back to him. I do not know if you have children but as a parent you cannot force your children to love you. God is our parent. His love is unconditional. Christianity was the first religion that presented God as a Father.
 
Hi soleil10,
I thought and think that G!D is a perfect being. That would be in every way that is imaginable and unimaginable to the human mind. Why would G!D create, as you propose here, an extension of Himself that would be born to fail?
Joe

We didn't fail. We functioned and operated as designed.:)

God gave Adam and Eve the mental autonomy to be able to choose. They did. Now here we are, enjoying that autonomy.

I imagine that God is lying back relaxing on His great white throne, proud of what we have achieved . . . His creation has gone beyond His expectations.

That they did choose to taste good and evil was a tragedy, as knowing something is often more painful than not knowing. As the great sages say, knowledge is power, and with power, comes responsibility.

But here we are . . . and, I think, we are doing quite well.:)

What Adam and Eve did is either a mistake or an opportunity depending on your point of view.

If you're a successful person and doing well in life, it was an opportunity considering all the wonderful things you can find in this world.

If you're all screwed up, been hurt by people, suffered depression, lost your job, been divorced (and not happy afterwards), been robbed, been evicted and lost your home, I'd say it was a tragedy. Cry out to God if you will. Ask Him to rescue you from this dystopia.
 
But here we are . . . and, I think, we are doing quite well.:)
As in what happens today in the "Holy Land" ? I suppose it is only an extension of the biblical orders from god to commit genocide. Such a nice psychopath this abrahamic god. He would be proud of the descendants of Adam and Eve and the relish with which they murder and maim.
 
God is an incorporeal and invivible being. God’s purpose in creating Adam and Eve was, to acquire a body.
God’s purpose in creating them in His image was to have dominion over the incorporeal and the corporal world through them. They would have become the first substantial parents in God’s external form multiplying children. Then the spiritual world and the physical world would be connected through human beings.
If instead of falling, Adam and Eve had grown to maturity, flourished on earth and gone to heaven, they would have been one with the invisible God.

God didn't create Adam and Eve, the LORD God did.

Genesis 2

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [b] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah) it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20). from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

God created Man

Genesis 1

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

The purpose of Man was to work the garden.
 
As in what happens today in the "Holy Land" ?

Ok, maybe not so good then. We've still got some problems to solve . . .

I suppose it is only an extension of the biblical orders from god to commit genocide. Such a nice psychopath this abrahamic god.

Concerning the ethics of what the Israelites did in the land of Canaan, I would say that the Old Testament God was acting very much like a tribal God, just like many of the cultures in the area at the time. He didn't seek to change the existing tribal ethics, but instead worked with them.

I personally don't blame a God for doing that. We live in a world of many different cultures, with their many habits, characteristics, pecularities and idiosyncrasies. If we were to impose our values on another culture, that would be seen as arrogant. Consider the case of British, American and Australian forces working in Afghanistan.

Let's say an American, British or Australian soldier, thinking he/she knows better, concerning a strategic or tactical situation, wants to lecture an Afghan on how to reason properly, based on his/her higher level of reasoning compared to that of the lowly life of an Afghan. The American, British or Australian soldier would be accused of being arrogant.

Consider the case of humans on board the Starship Enterprise exploring the galaxy, encountering so-called "primitive civilisations" with their "primitive thinking." Their societies are plagued by multitudes of social and political problems. What are they going to do? Are they going to try and change the social and political framework?

Well, yes, if they are interested in raising the level of civilisation. They would change the social and political framework. By changing the framework, they increase the level of civilisation.

Of course, you'd wonder, wouldn't God be interested in civilisation? My personal view on this is that He isn't really that interested in that. The God of the Old Testament seems to have been more interested in a relationship with humans. He understands civilisation, He knows what it means to have a social and political framework, but He is likely to not be interested because He'd rather leave that to us. He expects us to do it on our own.

Whatever the Israelites did in Canaan, I reckon they would have done anyway if they knew about it (without the OT God telling them about the land), based on whatever Middle-Eastern tribal ethics existed at the time. What I believe God was doing in all this was saying, "hey, I'm going to watch over you in this journey of your's. I will support you in your endeavours as long as you behave yourselves and do as I say." So the God of the Old Testament was probably more like a steward watching over "His people" as they went on their journey to the Promised Land, offering support.

Also, don't forget they were slaves in Egypt and needed some place to live. The support they received would have been important for that reason.

As for what Israel does today, If I am right about what God in the Old Testament meant when he complained about injustice in the Holy Land (back then and now), I would actually have been thinking of the opposite -- that God wouldn't approve of what is happening now. It goes against "today's ethics."

When I say "today's ethics," I am speaking of God as an outsider of this world, as much like a guest of this world that has to work with the ethics and morality of this world, much as He worked with the Middle-Eastern tribal ethics of the past. If I think of God as an individual that values relationships, then the ethics of today determines Israel's relationship with the world in a moral/ethical context and in that context, Israel cannot be seen favourably. Israel harming the collective human psyche, being divisive and creating regional tensions in this way is something of which God would not approve.

Even worse is when Israel loses support of the Jewish communities around the world for its actions (bit like Americans and Sept-11, war on Iraq, etc.). Israel then, I would say, is like a madman that has lost its mind. It has lost touch with reality.

One of the Ten Commandments is not to use God's name for "evil" purposes. It's often interpreted as the command against blasphemy, but actually, when I read the Pentateuch a while back it seemed He was saying He wouldn't tolerate people using His name for "evil" purposes (ie. misusing His name). It didn't sound like blasphemy at all.

So it's like, Inspector Gadget or Maxwell Smart trying to catch a thug and saying, "Stop! In the name of the Law," meanwhile breaking the law.

I suppose the reason why it'd be interpreted as "blasphemy" is because generically, it's about desecrating His name. But there'd be two ways of desecrating His name. One is to slander Him or to use it as a swear-word. The other is to go around incarcerating people, killing and torturing them and claiming that you're doing it for God.

I see the latter as the more valid interpretation, especially considering the wording (somewhere in the Pentateuch). The former doesn't seem so relevant these days. In the case of the acts of genocide in the Holy Land (and elsewhere in the name of Islam and Christianity), I'd think it'd be the latter.

Yeah, people do use it as a swear-word sometimes, but that doesn't concern me. It's not really that big of a deal. What is a big deal is people using religion (and thus God) as a tool of domination.
 
Hi Soleil —

We are part of God's creation. God wants to have a relationship with his children.
I would say God wills that for our benefit, not for His.

It takes two to have a relationship of love. God cannot experience love by himself.
If God wills love, then God must be love prior to creation — love is a Divine Quality which we experience, but God doesn't, God is love, He does not experience love. Love does not appear from other than God to bind Him to His creation.

God gave us free will because He wants to have a true relationship of love.
Then without man, God's love is untrue? That cannot be — rather He wills that we might have a true relationship with Him.

But again, if God wills 'relationship' then the principle of relation must be in God prior to any manifestation of it — it doesn't come from elsewhere. The approach to this Mystery is in the Doctrine of the Trinity, in its eternal circumincession between the three Divine Persons.

(This is the bit everyone misses, when the try and interpret the Trinity according to the common triune cosmological determinations.)

Because of the fall we have to return to Him.
By His grace. He could have 'written us off' as it were.

What do you mean by "The fathers?"
Sorry, the first theologians of the Church.

If Adam and Eve had not fallen, there would have been no need for religions and no need for a Messiah.
OK.

The first couple would have given birth to sinless children and then families, tribes, clans, nations would have expanded from there.
OK.

There was no need for a second Adam to come.
Adam and Eve have a physical body and a spiritual body. After the fall our spiritual senses were pretty much lost. We became separated from God.
The first theologians thought that Adam and Eve would grow into spiritual maturity ... but they fell along the way. They were sinless, but not yet perfect, otherwise they would not have sinned. Without sin, the 'incarnation' might well be an interior revelation (much as Peter's was — cf Matthew 16:16) and a transfiguration, a deification of the soul ... but when they fell, that became impossible for them.

We became separated from God, and God sought us out.

Thomas
 
Thomas

How do you respond by separating quotes one by one. I am new. Somehow I have not figure it out ?
 
Thomas

How do you respond by separating quotes one by one. I am new. Somehow I have not figure it out ?

Click on reply/quote and notice how the quoted text is enclosed by "[qu-ote]" and "[/qu-ote]" (without the dashes, because otherwise, it'd be a quote)

Like this:

"
"

. . . which has the dashes removed.

Do a
xxxx said:
to indicate the poster. For example,

xxxx said:
blah blah blah

Don't forget to close the quote with [/qu-ote] (without the dash)
 
Hi Soleil —


I would say God wills that for our benefit, not for His.


If God wills love, then God must be love prior to creation — love is a Divine Quality which we experience, but God doesn't, God is love, He does not experience love. Love does not appear from other than God to bind Him to His creation.


Then without man, God's love is untrue? That cannot be — rather He wills that we might have a true relationship with Him.

But again, if God wills 'relationship' then the principle of relation must be in God prior to any manifestation of it — it doesn't come from elsewhere. The approach to this Mystery is in the Doctrine of the Trinity, in its eternal circumincession between the three Divine Persons.

(This is the bit everyone misses, when the try and interpret the Trinity according to the common triune cosmological determinations.)


By His grace. He could have 'written us off' as it were.


Sorry, the first theologians of the Church.


OK.


OK.


The first theologians thought that Adam and Eve would grow into spiritual maturity ... but they fell along the way. They were sinless, but not yet perfect, otherwise they would not have sinned. Without sin, the 'incarnation' might well be an interior revelation (much as Peter's was — cf Matthew 16:16) and a transfiguration, a deification of the soul ... but when they fell, that became impossible for them.

We became separated from God, and God sought us out.

Thomas

I believe love existed before life. God's essence is love.
God has all the knowledge, all the power, He is omniscient and absolute but once again it takes two to activate love.
You can say , I love me all day long. It is not experiencing love.

I believe God experience joy and sadeness. He even want us to be better than Him, like a parent wish for his children.

Can you explain what you mean by the mystery of the trinity ?

Can you explain also your sentence that start with "Without sin. the incarnation .....................divine persons.

God could not write us off otherwise, His love would not be absolute and unchanging.

Even God has to love Satan and bring him back.
 
OMG Salty!! What you been smoking dude!! Using star trek and inspector gadget to justify genocide!! I have never, I believe, had a crossed word with you before but come on my man!! You cant be serious.

Or perhaps I should be congratulating you on giving a quintessential example of the irrational lengths people will go to justify the unjustifiable. Genocide is genocide in any culture and at any time and there is no way to make allowances. The Abrahamic apologist can try to dress it any way they like, invoke metaphor and interpretation but murder is murder and any book that calls for it is an outrage that should only be held up as an example of how not to behave. I am aghast, truly I am, to see such a post from you.
 
I believe love existed before life. God's essence is love.
You're contradicting yourself. If love exists before life, how? Who did God love when there was no-one around to love?

but once again it takes two to activate love.
Subject and object ... but in God, subject and object are one.

You can say, I love me all day long. It is not experiencing love.
It is when God says it. You're putting a limit on the nature of God, according to your nature.

I believe God experience joy and sadeness. He even want us to be better than Him, like a parent wish for his children.
How can anything be better than the thing there is nothing better than? For God to will that would be nonsense. I think you're letting sentiment get the better of your thinking.

I'm not tearing into your argument, I'm just saying we have to be careful what we assert has some foundation. I believe God experiences joy and sorrow, but I also believe God is beyond joy and sorrow. I think He does so for our benefit, not for His.

Can you explain what you mean by the mystery of the trinity?
The Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit were there before the world. They were never not there. They are God and they are Three and they are One. So I would argue that the expression of love in the Trinity, between the Three, is the love that God enjoys.

Can you explain also your sentence that start with "Without sin. the incarnation ... divine persons.
If Adam and Eve remained without sin, would the Incarnation be necessary? The early Church thought yes. The idea is that Christ was not the equal of Adam: Adam was a man, Christ is the Son of God, and our 'heritage' in Christ therefore must excel our heritage in Adam, therefore, without Christ, how is Adam to access that heritage?

The assumption is that even though Adam and Eve were without sin, the world still had to 'unfold', God's will would not be realised all at once.

God could not write us off otherwise, His love would not be absolute and unchanging.
But that's not for us to bank on, that's for us to hope, otherwise we end up assuming we have 'rights' over God.

Even God has to love Satan and bring him back.
No He doesn't. That implies we're all saved regardless, and 'justice' and 'mercy' are meaningless terms, in fact the Bible would be a lot of fuss about nothing.

God's love is His free gift, He is not obliged to love anyone or anything. It is evident in Christ's words that if man chooses to not accept the love of God, then God is not obliged to make him accept it. The Parable of the Prodigal Son says that, and there's plenty of other evidence. If we believed that, we could get up to all manner of naughtiness and say: "Don't matter, God will forgive me."

I believe in 'hell' as a separation from God, and I believe the option of hell is one that is always there, for everyone ... It is my hope that hell is empty, and that everyone is saved, but it is not a condition I can put upon God, nor can I put it on my neighbour.

Nor can God create a world in which man is free, and then not allow man the freedom to deny God.

Thomas
 
You're contradicting yourself. If love exists before life, how? Who did God love when there was no-one around to love?

That is why love was the motivation for God to create


The Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit were there before the world. They were never not there. They are God and they are Three and they are One. So I would argue that the expression of love in the Trinity, between the Three, is the love that God enjoys.

God wanted to realise the trinity on earth between Him, Adam and Eve.

I like the example of the color purple, blue and red.
purple is blue + red. The 3 colors are one.

This is why Christianity says that the Holy spirit is the comforter, the feminine spirit. Jesus is the second Adam.


No He doesn't. That implies we're all saved regardless, and 'justice' and 'mercy' are meaningless terms, in fact the Bible would be a lot of fuss about nothing.

Where do you think "We have to love our enemy comes from".

God essence is love. He is obedient to the law of love

God's love is His free gift, He is not obliged to love anyone or anything. It is evident in Christ's words that if man chooses to not accept the love of God, then God is not obliged to make him accept it. The Parable of the Prodigal Son says that, and there's plenty of other evidence. If we believed that, we could get up to all manner of naughtiness and say: "Don't matter, God will forgive me."

I believe in 'hell' as a separation from God, and I believe the option of hell is one that is always there, for everyone ... It is my hope that hell is empty, and that everyone is saved, but it is not a condition I can put upon God, nor can I put it on my neighbour.
Dont we say God love the sinner but does not love the sin. His love is unconditional.

How do we help liberate someone in hell it since they do not have a physical body and cannot do good deeds anymore /

That is another other thread
 
God is an incorporeal and invivible being.
God is visible and knowable as he walked with Adam and sat on Mt. Sinai, and He filled the temple's Holy of Holies. The Father is not able to be seen by human eyes, as we are sinners and cannot be in the sight of his holy presence; however, his Son walked and talked among us, and His Spirit can dwell in us. So it is not correct to say God is invisible when he manifested himself to us so he could be personally known, and it is through his salvation that we will see him for who he really is one day.
 
God is an incorporeal and invivible being. God’s purpose in creating Adam and Eve was, to acquire a body.
God’s purpose in creating them in His image was to have dominion over the incorporeal and the corporal world through them. They would have become the first substantial parents in God’s external form multiplying children. Then the spiritual world and the physical world would be connected through human beings.
If instead of falling, Adam and Eve had grown to maturity, flourished on earth and gone to heaven, they would have been one with the invisible God.

If you believe that God is perfect in everyway and can not make mistakes then you cant believe Adam and Eve failed. God knows the end from the beginning. God knew excalty what Adam and Eve would do in the Garden on that day.

God purpose of creating adam and eve was to acquire a body WHAT??

I believe that is why Jesus Christ the son of God was created. I believe Jesus was God in human form. Yes I believe I have read this many of time in the Bible. Once again I ask you where do you get this stuff from?? It is most certianly not scripture which is the inspired word of God. Please show me where these passages are.
 
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