Definition of the Trinity ?

[Dondi]

Only he who possesses the mind of God can know God, so unless we assume we are equal to God, we will never truly know God as he knows Himself.

Science is imprecise, it knows it does not know all there is to know, but that's no reflection on science, or man.

Seems odd to say we know all about God, but we don't know what lies at the bottom of an ocean trench.

Science becomes dead when we assume we know all there is to be known, and likewise God does, too.

Never meant that we could know all about God through science or otherwise. Nor is the picture complete with the revealed scripture. All I was saying is that instead of treating the concept of the Trinity as some 'Mystery' which cannot be solved, why not attempt to approach the subject rationally and draw some conclusions.

Why? There is a vast library of Mystical knowledge on the Trinity ... can you equal that?

I've got stuff by Irenaeus, the very first theologian (c200ad) that is still unfolding itself for me ... then there's Athanasius, Hilary, Origen, the Cappadocians, Augustine, Maximus and Leontius ... and that's a fraction of the knowledge, and I haven't got the the 7th century yet ... have you covered all that ... and the rest?

I just may investigate these. As I've said, this is still a work in progress, but work still.

Sorry mate ... but your theory is similar to Arianism, which makes the Spirit and the Son not quite the equal of God.

The Trinity does not exist because of, or for, creation. That is determinism.

Thomas

Maybe there were Three before the creation of the world. I'm not trying to buy into a particular aberrant view. But the way I've present it (in this 'telescopic' view), I'm at least attempting to reconcile the idea of Three Persons in One God. Just trying to make the best sense out of it.

 

[Thomas]

Never meant that we could know all about God through science or otherwise. Nor is the picture complete with the revealed scripture. All I was saying is that instead of treating the concept of the Trinity as some 'Mystery' which cannot be solved, why not attempt to approach the subject rationally and draw some conclusions.

Ah, sorry, you're reading the modern meaning of mystery as 'something I don't understand' — the traditional meaning of Mystery is closer to the Mystical. I mean we enter into the Mystery, as a very real, conscious, knowing process that we cannot adequately explain to ourselves or another, but is nevertheless real. I do not mean entry into a mystery like entering a dark room and fumbling about for a light switch.

Sorry. I'm assuming people use the term in the traditional and religious sense. I said I'd start a thread on Mystery, to explain it.

I just may investigate these. As I've said, this is still a work in progress, but work still.

Well it's better than collecting porn! I research it, so who am I to knock another?

If I could offer any advice, it's that you've got to be able to explain the Trinity without reference to creation, man, or anything else. It's a self-contained thing.

Maybe there were Three before the creation of the world. I'm not trying to buy into a particular aberrant view. But the way I've present it (in this 'telescopic' view), I'm at least attempting to reconcile the idea of Three Persons in One God. Just trying to make the best sense out of it.

OK. But one of the errors is 'modalism', which assumes One God who appears in various modes, or forms, or guises ... that's a no-no.

The big problem is that in presenting a view, we can lead others into error.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

True science walks hand in hand with true religion.

Absolutely, I totally agree. What I meant is that as science develop, people are rejecting confused and unclear beliefs.

Here is a good example. When Jesus came he clarified and updated the expression of the truth for the people of his time from the old testament to the new testament.

Ah ... then here we part company. The Trinity is by no means 'incomplete' — if someone says that, rather it is their comprehension of it that is wanting.
That everything subsists through the Trinity is true, but as such everything is subsequent to the Trinity, external and relative to it. The Trinity exists outside of time and space, and beyond all modes and degrees of determination.
The Trinity is all about the interior life of God. After that, and because of it, it explains everything else. Whether the Cosmos exists or not, the Trinity is.
The Trinity is Absolute, nothing can be added to it, taken from it; it cannot be multiplied or divided, it cannot be changed or altered, mixed or separated, it cannot suffer increase or decrease, flow or flux ... It is what It is, eternally. The rest, therefore, I read as error compounded on error.

OK Thomas, I do not disagree with you. I am not saying that the Trinity(God) is not absolute, unchanging, eternal, self sustaining etc.....

Here is what I meant because it can be easily misunderstood the way I wrote it.(sorry) I hope that I can do a better job this time.

The Trinity (God) with all the attributes that you described above created the Cosmos, including humankind.

So God (the Trinity) created. The new creation, the new life in a way is a reflection of the creator.

We can say, it complements but I agree with you. It is distinct with all its attributes.

 

[Dondi]

OK. But one of the errors is 'modalism', which assumes One God who appears in various modes, or forms, or guises ... that's a no-no.

The big problem is that in presenting a view, we can lead others into error.

Oh, but I'm not advocating modalism. I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit exists simultanously, don't get me wrong. One of the problems I have is that the Jews didn't apparently recognize the nature of the Trinity, that much is apparent in the OT ("I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour" - Isaiah 43:11) and the aforementioned Shema. And another passage attributed to the Messiah has Him described as "Everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

So who’s confused yet?

 

[soleil10]

though He is transcedent within the universe via the Holy Spirit, as subsequently immanent in His relationship with man. So yes,I believe the Holy Spirit is a bridge between the physical universe and God (the Father).
In Genesis 1, we have the Spirit of God moving over the waters after the creation of the heavens and the earth. And I believe this is indictive of the Holy Spirit's interaction with the physical universe. The implication is that God's command to "Let There Be Light" is for that Holy Spirit produced the power and energy to create that light in a physical manifestation.
It is said that God created the universe out of nothing. But really it is God creating the universe out of his own power. Afterall, all matter is is packets of energy in a lower state. Assuming the Big Bang is accurate, everything that exists now was in the form of pure energy in it's highest state, at the moment of creation. That was the Holy Spirit cracking into the physical realm. And as this energy cooled off, matter formed to everything we see now, including ourselves. We came from the power and energy of God. But all that energy is stored in the atoms of the universe.

Dondi here is what I believe
As Gold told Moses in Exodus 3:14,"... I AM WHO I AM".
God existed before time and space and transcends time and space. God is an eternal, self existing, and absolute being.
Therefore, the fundamental force for His being should also be eternal, self existing, and absolute. This original force was not created, but simply existed within God from the beginning, transcendant of time and space.
This force is called the UNIVERSAL PRIME FORCE; it is the fundamental force of God, the Creator. It is also the fundamental force of the creation, the force which God endows every individual being.

The Holy Spirit is something else as I explained in one of my comment above

While there are legitimate discussions concerning the nature of the Holy Spirit in regards to the feminine, indeed the word 'Shekinah' in describing the glory and the Presence of the Lord in the Wilderness Tabernacle is in the feminine form, I stop short in descibing God as either masculine or feminine, as if God is some kind of an androgenous being. Rather that He 'assigned' traits to the male and female that would serve to compliment each other and function as their respective roles as husband and wife, mother and father, in order to build the family unit. Nor do I think of Adam and Eve as part of the Trinity.

If the fall of man had not occured, God would not have had to have Jesus and the Holy spirit work for the salvation of man.
If Adam and Eve had perfected themselves as God'son and daughter, each becoming an embodiement of God's divine nature, then they would have been "...perfect, as [their] Heavenly Father is perfect". Matt 5:48 and they would have attained the ideal of union with God (Jn14:20)
Adam would have become God's holy son, and Eve, his holy daughter. They would have been the original Trinity on earth (fulfilling the 1 and 2 blessing)

Instead they formed a trinity based on Satan

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are taking Adam and Eve's places as the second Adam and the second Eve. They are part of the spiritual Trinity.
It makes so much sense to me.

In asfar as God's preference to being called Father, that is His way for us to consider Him as head of our lives as the fatherhead is the head of the family unit. It is a functional role, not a physical one.

The masculine part of God is subjective to the female part of God which is objective. This is while we call Him Father but He is our Heavenly Parent

 

[Dondi]

If the fall of man had not occured, God would not have had to have Jesus and the Holy spirit work for the salvation of man.
If Adam and Eve had perfected themselves as God'son and daughter, each becoming an embodiement of God's divine nature, then they would have been "...perfect, as [their] Heavenly Father is perfect". Matt 5:48 and they would have attained the ideal of union with God (Jn14:20)
Adam would have become God's holy son, and Eve, his holy daughter. They would have been the original Trinity on earth (fulfilling the 1 and 2 blessing)

Instead they formed a trinity based on Satan

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are taking Adam and Eve's places as the second Adam and the second Eve. They are part of the spiritual Trinity.
It makes so much sense to me.

In what manner would Adam and Eve become perfected before the Fall. What is it precisely would they have had to do to be and stay in the Trinity?

Insofar as the Trinity is concerned, we are talking about the nature of God. You're telling me that a Trinity would have been formed through some interaction with Adam and Eve. What in your estimation is God naturally like before creation? Was there a Trinity? Was Jesus part of it?

 

[Thomas]

One of the problems I have is that the Jews didn't apparently recognize the nature of the Trinity

No, that was revealed in Christ.

If you have no problem with the Jews not recognising Christ, why do you have a problem with them not recognising the Holy Spirit?

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

In what manner would Adam and Eve become perfected before the Fall. What is it precisely would they have had to do to be and stay in the Trinity?

By fulfilling the 3 blessings centered on God.
God directly conveyed his Will and Heart of love to man (Gen 1:28))
By fulfilling the 3 blessings, centered on God's ideal of love, we become the object of Heart which return perfect joy to God.

The fall of man implies that there is a growing period, for if man had been created perfect, then there would have been no posssibility of his falling.
Adam and Eve fell during their growing period and did not fulfill these 3 blessings.

Insofar as the Trinity is concerned, we are talking about the nature of God. You're telling me that a Trinity would have been formed through some interaction with Adam and Eve. What in your estimation is God naturally like before creation? Was there a Trinity? Was Jesus part of it?

How can we know the nature of God ?
Paul says in Rom 1:20
"Ever since the creation of the world, namely, His eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse..."
We can determine what God's nature is like by finding the characteristics which are common to all entities in His creation.
Here are two characteristics of God. (I keep it short)
We find that all existing beings have both an invisible internal character and a visible eternal form.
For instance, in man, we have an invisible mind and a visible body. Animals have an invisible instinctual mind and of course a physical body. Plants too have internal characteristics and a physical appearance. Same for molecules, atoms etc.
In man, the mind is the subject and the motivator of the body. It is the same for all creations. (after the fall the mind and body are in conflict)
Since God is the First Cause of all beings and each created being has an internal character and a visible form, God also has an internal character and a visible form which exist in harmony.

We also find that throughout the Creation, there is a reciprocal relationship between Positivity and negativity (Yin and Yang if you will)
For example atoms are formed from the reciprocal relationship between Positivity and Negativity. When two or more atoms enter in a reciprocal relationship they form a molecule. Plants have male and female elements
Animals reproduce through relationship between male and female.
The Bible says that God was not satisfied with man alone (Gen 2:18)
so he made woman. Then for the first time God saw that His creation was..."very good".
Mankind is composed of men and women and human society exists and develops through the reciprocal relationship between men and women.
Since all beings are resultants beings, this element of male, female (positivity and negativity) means that God Himslef who is the first cause of all things has these 2 attributes.

Concerning your question of Jesus before the creation, I would prefer to make a separate comment. I do not want to make this one too long

God has to be the same before the creation, since He is unchanging.

 

[Dondi]

No, that was revealed in Christ.

Yeah, but there are many messianic passages that hint at Christ's coming. Why didn't they recognize Him as God in the flesh?

If you have no problem with the Jews not recognising Christ, why do you have a problem with them not recognising the Holy Spirit?

Thomas

Because God and Spirit in the eyes of the Jews are the same thing. God is Spirit. Why would they make a distinction?

 

[wil]

Yeah, but there are many messianic passages that hint at Christ's coming. Why didn't they recognize Him?

I think the Jews that recognize Christ as the Messiah are called Christians. Many did, a number of them did, but it was more gentiles that accepted the saviour concept. Can't recall/find which thread but somewhere along the line Dauer and BB did a pretty good job of saying what the Jewish take was on all the scripture that Christians claim Jesus fulfilled.

 

[Thomas]

Because God and Spirit in the eyes of the Jews are the same thing. God is Spirit. Why would they make a distinction?

Exactly. So I don't see what the Jews have to do with a definition of the Holy Trinity, other than to say, as an aside, they don't believe in it. Nor do the Moslems, either, so should we include them in the discussion?

Thomas

 

[Dondi]

Exactly. So I don't see what the Jews have to do with a definition of the Holy Trinity, other than to say, as an aside, they don't believe in it. Nor do the Moslems, either, so should we include them in the discussion?

Thomas

I was referring to Jews of the Old Testament era. If we are going to consistent in our theology, we ought to examine the mindset of those who lived prior to Christ, what their view of God was, etc. The Holy Trinity DID exist before Christ, didn't it?

 

[Thomas]

The Holy Trinity DID exist before Christ, didn't it?

Yes it did, but it was not revealed to man until Christ.

Thomas