Homosexuality and Religion

Mohsin

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Regards to all.
This may be an odd issue, but is infact an important one. Homosexuality is becoming more and more common. Many nations have also leaglized marrige between such people. This act of disgracefulness is regarded as a big sin in Islam. In the Qur'an, such acts have been mentioned in the people of Lut(P.B.U.H). Prophet Lut(P.B.U.H) told his people that this is an act exceeding all limits. These people did not listen and were then given a fierce punishment and they all perished.

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Lut said, "I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds. Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" Al-Qur'an(026)(162-166)

(The Messengers) said: "O Lut! We are Messengers from thy Lord! By no means shall they reach thee! now travel with thy family while yet a part of the night remains, and let not any of you look back: but thy wife (will remain behind): To her will happen what happens to the people. Morning is their time appointed: Is not the morning nigh?" When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer,- Marked as from thy Lord: Nor are they ever far from those who do wrong! ' Al-Qur'an(011)(081-093)
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This fierce and firey end is also mentioned in the Bible in the book of Genesis. The region is mentioned as Sodom. BBC released an article in which a British geologist Graham Harris discovered the location of Sodom and there were infact markings of a firey and fierce earthqurake and the skeleton remains were found to have the marks of stones with which they were hit by. These stones were mainly due to the eruptions, e.t.c.

This proves that Allah(the Almighty God) regards this act as a great sin. My main issue is that many Christians(and other people) are homosexual. This can be because they are deviated. But in the places where they are allowed to marry, they are married infront of a Christian priest holding a Bible thus giving an impression that homosexuality is allowed in Christianity. What are your views about it?
 

iBrian

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I think ascribing volcanic eruptions to the actions of angry gods is not an argument I'd expect to see in the modern scientific world. :)

As for the issue of homosexuality in religion - a sore topic indeed. I have to admit that I wonder how much of the overturning of religious tradition is due to real insight, rather than general political correctness.

True, religion and belief changes with time, but at some point in religious belief has to be Faith that the teachings and doctrines offered have some Divine source. To erode the extent of those teachings is to ultimately question the divinity of the overall teachings.

Of course, people of faith also need to accept that, where they exist in secular society, that secular society recognises that anybody may have rights, regardless of religious prosciptions.
 

Vajradhara

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Namaste all,


well.. i suppose that i don't really understand what the big issue is... well.. i do understand it from a Biblical/Qur'an point of view... but i don't really get it in a social context.

in my view, it is better to have a couple, regardless of gender, engaged in a comitted relationship rather than being promiscious. and that's about the long and the short of it for me.

it is my view that promiscuity is a greater issue that needs to be confronted and this is a more serious attack on the culture of marriage, such that it is.
 

Avinash

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Namaskar,

In my tradition you are allowed to question the value of any part of the scriptures. In these scriptures there is however no mention of homosexuality. Sex in general though is treated as something needing restraint because excess can harm the vital energy needed to preserve health, power of thought and for doing spiritual practices with.

There is a system of regular fasting days to prevent too much vital energy being transformed into sexual tissues (as well as for other reasons). There is special underwear and circumcision to prevent unnecessary stimulation of the sexual organ. And there are dietary proscriptions and prescriptions for the use of water which also help to keep a pure mind.

In the sphere of social customs there is a marriage system in which there is not (yet?) any allowance for same-sex marriages.
I don't yet have a clear idea about what would be best for society as a whole but as long as promiscuous behaviour and liberal sexual attitudes in the public domain are restricted I see no objection to gay marriage.

The Qur'an and the Christian Bible have no value for me as far as so-called instructions from God are concerned and I don't wish for these scriptures to interfere with human laws. As far as I'm concerned, sins are only acts that harm others and harm your own potential to help others.

I would like to see a society where people are encouraged to reach their full potential, i.e. physically, mentally and spiritually. Proclaiming things as sinful just for the sake of religious dogma is in my opinion damaging for the human mind and for society as a whole and therefore a sin in itself.

Andrew
 

smkolins

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is just religious guidance?

The quote from the Holy Qur'an, and as suggested from other religions as well, raises the issue to a matter that God takes a definite stand on. As long as the basis of judgement is social then the laws and standards must respect those limits and options. But this leaves the judgement of God aside - supposing that it is a matter one may differ with since it isn't of "my" scriptures or yours. On a human level of course you cannot accept a statement from a scripture you have no particular faith in. But God doesn't always wait for everyone to decide - as I see the story of Sodom ( and for that matter also of Hud.) This Surah is a profound examination of the troubles of not listening to God's guidance.

As to "natural" occurences being the means of God's punishment - I suppose Him capable but not prone to act rashly, though quickly. In a scifi type of vein I would suppose God could run all the alternate futures and see not enough good measured out individually and collectively and abort the experiment at the right time. On a human level when one person seeking justice sees enough injustice and shame it seems like the earth should rise up in angst over the violation - but we hardly ever see when we are ourselves the cause of enough injustice and shame - and that the earth might notice. And we like little children would look up shocked to discover that what we have done was, in truth, bad, and some, then, repent.
 

Marsh

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Are there limits to the forgiveness of the Living God?

Mohsin said:
This proves that Allah(the Almighty God) regards this act as a great sin. My main issue is that many Christians(and other people) are homosexual. This can be because they are deviated. But in the places where they are allowed to marry, they are married infront of a Christian priest holding a Bible thus giving an impression that homosexuality is allowed in Christianity. What are your views about it?

Fact: Most churches do not perform marriages between homosexual people.

Fact: "and other people" includes Muslims, Mohsin. Do you not have compassion for your brothers and sisters?

Fact: Some churches do perform marriages between homosexual people, but most of the time it is a civil ceremony under secular law.

Fact: Not all people who attend church actually believe in the LORD, in his Son, in the Holy Spirit, or in the word as written in the scriptures.

Fact: The same is true for all religions, substituting the word church for other institutions, and the words LORD, Son, Holy Spirit and scripture for who or what they believe in.

Fact: Homosexuality is considered a sin by most churches.

Fact: Forgiveness of sins is taught and practiced by Jesus.

Fact: The one who breaks even the least of God's commands is guilty of breaking the entire law, which means any heterosexual couple who has ever broken any law is equally condemned.

Fact: Don't worry, because forgiveness of sins is taught and practiced by Jesus.

Fact: Biologically speaking, people are not meant to be homosexual because the sex organs don't match up properly.

Fact: Biologically speaking, people are not meant to drink coca cola because it doesn't occur in nature. Or to drive cars because they pollute the environment. Or use electricity because the magnetic fields cause cancer. Basically everything about our modern world is not meant to be, biologically speaking.

So why is everyone so surprised about homosexuality?

Homosexuality is not a problem; it is the symptom of a problem. Actually, it is the symptom of two problems. First, it is not the product of individual wickedness (i.e. all homosexuals are wicked). It is the product of thousands of years of collective wickedness, which has taken a toll on the world. But it is no different from anything else about this world. It is no more natural for some people to amass large fortunes while other starve to death in the streets than it is for two people of the same sex to marry.

And this is the second problem: Anyone who condemns homosexuals for marrying is blind to the truth about themselves; they have tried to take the speck out of another person's eye before removing the log from their own. What's more, they try to remove that speck by stabbing it out-- with hatred.

If you truly believe in God, then you must believe that he created each and every one of us. And if you believe that he created each and every one of us, then you also must believe that he loves each and every one of us-- despite our faults-- as a Father loves his child. And if he loves us all, how can any of us call the creation he loves deviated?

Yes, some churches have condoned homosexual marriage. That's because homosexuals are people, and people should be treated with love and forgiveness, rather than with fire and brimstone.

And yes, God is watching. And yes, God will be swift to discipline (discipline before destruction) those of us who set ourselves against his ways. But no, such judgment is not limited to homosexuals, and the one who does not understand this is the one on whom such discipline will come like a thief in the night.

Bottom line: Conformity of the church to the world by circumventing God's word=bad; unforgiveness and a lack of love and compassion for people no more sinful than oneself=worse.
 

suanni

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Homosexuality is not a problem; it is the symptom of a problem. Actually, it is the symptom of two problems. First, it is not the product of individual wickedness (i.e. all homosexuals are wicked). It is the product of thousands of years of collective wickedness, which has taken a toll on the world. But it is no different from anything else about this world. It is no more natural for some people to amass large fortunes while other starve to death in the streets than it is for two people of the same sex to marry.
If you mean the product of thousands of years of collective wickedness implying thousands of years of condemning people for the name that they call their god, the colour of their skin, the language that they speak, the sex that they were born in, I agree.

And this is the second problem: Anyone who condemns homosexuals for marrying is blind to the truth about themselves; they have tried to take the speck out of another person's eye before removing the log from their own. What's more, they try to remove that speck by stabbing it out-- with hatred.

If you truly believe in God, then you must believe that he created each and every one of us. And if you believe that he created each and every one of us, then you also must believe that he loves each and every one of us-- despite our faults-- as a Father loves his child. And if he loves us all, how can any of us call the creation he loves deviated?

Yes, some churches have condoned homosexual marriage. That's because homosexuals are people, and people should be treated with love and forgiveness, rather than with fire and brimstone.

And yes, God is watching. And yes, God will be swift to discipline (discipline before destruction) those of us who set ourselves against his ways. But no, such judgment is not limited to homosexuals, and the one who does not understand this is the one on whom such discipline will come like a thief in the night.

Bottom line: Conformity of the church to the world by circumventing God's word=bad; unforgiveness and a lack of love and compassion for people no more sinful than oneself=worse.
Agree. We are not here to judge other people. We are here to love and help one another in the tasks that have been allotted to us. Each and everyone of us have a purpose on earth and it is not to condemn another because they differ from us in the slightest way.
 

Avinash

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Dear Marsh Namaskar,

Marsh said:
Fact: Biologically speaking, people are not meant to be homosexual because the sex organs don't match up properly.

Fact: Biologically speaking, homosexuality occurs in the animal world as much as in the human. Therefore it is perfectly natural. Those who are born with this same-sex orientation have a slightly different brain.

Question is whether in the human society the difference in a natural urge should perse be translated into the adjustment of public institutions.

Homosexuality is not a problem; it is the symptom of a problem. Actually, it is the symptom of two problems. First, it is not the product of individual wickedness (i.e. all homosexuals are wicked). It is the product of thousands of years of collective wickedness, which has taken a toll on the world. But it is no different from anything else about this world. It is no more natural for some people to amass large fortunes while other starve to death in the streets than it is for two people of the same sex to marry.

This comparison of homosexuals who marry someone of their own sex with sinners is unfair and in my view perverse. Homosexuals are born as homosexual and have no free choice. People who amass wealth do so of their own free will.
There has always been homosexuality, so it cannot be seen as a "punishment for accumulated collective sins".

If you truly believe in God, then you must believe that he created each and every one of us. And if you believe that he created each and every one of us, then you also must believe that he loves each and every one of us-- despite our faults-- as a Father loves his child. And if he loves us all, how can any of us call the creation he loves deviated?

Homosexuality is not a "fault" in anyone, it is just as much a part of nature as red hair is.

And yes, God is watching. And yes, God will be swift to discipline (discipline before destruction) those of us who set ourselves against his ways. But no, such judgment is not limited to homosexuals, and the one who does not understand this is the one on whom such discipline will come like a thief in the night.

If God makes people to be born with homosexuality it would be very odd indeed if He were to "discipline" and "judge" homosexuals. In fact God does no such thing. It is people who with their narrowmindedness cannot accept people who are somewhat different from the rest.

Andrew
 

StrangeQuark

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Marsh said:
Fact: Not all people who attend church actually believe in the LORD, in his Son, in the Holy Spirit, or in the word as written in the scriptures.

This is probably true to some extent. However, since I am not a fundamentalist, I will not take every detail in the Bible literally. I believe the Word is written in our hearts--not a book. The Bible is a guideline, not an absolute law. You don't have to believe the same way. My belief is mine and I don't expect anyone to agree.

Fact: The one who breaks even the least of God's commands is guilty of breaking the entire law, which means any heterosexual couple who has ever broken any law is equally condemned.

Fact: Don't worry, because forgiveness of sins is taught and practiced by Jesus.

If we are forgiven, how can we also be condemned? This is one of the reasons I cannot accept a literal interpretation of the Bible. I believe that God is a loving God, and as such I believe that he loves me (and everyone) *at least as much* as I love my own son. My son could murder me tomorrow and I would still forgive him--that's how much I love him. Wouldn't God's love transcend even this? That is, if you believe that God is loving (he may not be).

Fact: Biologically speaking, people are not meant to be homosexual because the sex organs don't match up properly.

Hmm. The fact that the sex organs "don't match up properly" probably has nothing to do with a biological basis for homosexuality. Why should it? Biologically, evolution is a fact, and most likely all life on earth evolved from asexual species.

I will agree with this point: *genetically* speaking, sexual reproduction is more beneficial to a population that asexual, simply because you get a wider distribution of alleles. At one time "be fruitful and multiply" was a necessity for human survival. It isn't now. In fact, people might need to slow down the rate of reproduction.

Looking at the chromosomes may suggest that many species originated from unisexual ancestors.

This all, of course, my possibly very skewed interpretation of biology, but at least I admit it. The point is that there are other ways look at it.

And yes, God is watching. And yes, God will be swift to discipline (discipline before destruction) those of us who set ourselves against his ways. But no, such judgment is not limited to homosexuals, and the one who does not understand this is the one on whom such discipline will come like a thief in the night.

Bottom line: Conformity of the church to the world by circumventing God's word=bad; unforgiveness and a lack of love and compassion for people no more sinful than oneself=worse.

Argh! All I can do is return to my personal belief in a truly loving God, which seems different from yours. You do say you believe in a loving God, one who loves as a Father loves his children. Why would a Father who really loves his children destroy them--for any reaosn? I did not mean to say that we are not due some form of "discipline" for our sins, of course. But as with my own son, I will not "destroy" or sentence him to an eternity of torment no matter what he does.

Again, this all depends on *your* point of view and *your* personal belief. You may believe that the Bible is God's Word, but I belielve it is merely *one expression* of his Word, which is more perfectly revealed in our hearts and not in human language.

It helps to remember that, as stated above, there really is more than one way to look it.
 

StrangeQuark

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Andreas said:
Namaskar,

In my tradition you are allowed to question the value of any part of the scriptures. In these scriptures there is however no mention of homosexuality. Sex in general though is treated as something needing restraint because excess can harm the vital energy needed to preserve health, power of thought and for doing spiritual practices with.

There is a system of regular fasting days to prevent too much vital energy being transformed into sexual tissues (as well as for other reasons). There is special underwear and circumcision to prevent unnecessary stimulation of the sexual organ. And there are dietary proscriptions and prescriptions for the use of water which also help to keep a pure mind.

In the sphere of social customs there is a marriage system in which there is not (yet?) any allowance for same-sex marriages.
I don't yet have a clear idea about what would be best for society as a whole but as long as promiscuous behaviour and liberal sexual attitudes in the public domain are restricted I see no objection to gay marriage.

The Qur'an and the Christian Bible have no value for me as far as so-called instructions from God are concerned and I don't wish for these scriptures to interfere with human laws. As far as I'm concerned, sins are only acts that harm others and harm your own potential to help others.

I would like to see a society where people are encouraged to reach their full potential, i.e. physically, mentally and spiritually. Proclaiming things as sinful just for the sake of religious dogma is in my opinion damaging for the human mind and for society as a whole and therefore a sin in itself.

Andrew

I'd say "well said" or "I couldn't agree more" but I have to admit that I've learned something new. Still, I think you make some very interesting points worth consideration.

That last sentence *is* definitely well said, though--I think.
 

Marsh

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Avinash said:
1. Fact: Biologically speaking, homosexuality occurs in the animal world as much as in the human. Therefore it is perfectly natural. Those who are born with this same-sex orientation have a slightly different brain.

2. This comparison of homosexuals who marry someone of their own sex with sinners is unfair and in my view perverse. Homosexuals are born as homosexual and have no free choice. People who amass wealth do so of their own free will.

3. There has always been homosexuality".

4. Homosexuality is not a "fault" in anyone, it is just as much a part of nature as red hair is.

5. If God makes people to be born with homosexuality it would be very odd indeed if He were to "discipline" and "judge" homosexuals.

Point 1: Yes, I agree completely that animals as well as humans are born homosexual. I don't, however, believe it is natural insofar as I don't believe that being born lame is natural. Yet I do believe that it happens beyond the control of the baby.

Point 2: I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. There are a lot of things wrong with the world today. However, only certain people--like homosexuals-- take flack for it because as you've pointed out they are different enough that they stand out. Nobody points their finger at an exceedingly wealthy and greedy man the way that they point it at a gay man. But for every rich man in the world there are hundreds or thousands of poor people. Who does more damage?

Point 3: I don't agree. I believe that men and women were created for each other. I'm not saying that homosexuals cannot love each other like a heterosexual couple; I cannot make such a claim, because I don't know. My personal opinion is that homosexuality has been around for a long, long time, but that it wasn't around in the beginning.

Point 4: Agreed.

Point 5: Discipline and judgment are for everybody; not just for homosexuals. We all get dealt a hand; the cards are different, but they are all the same in the end: without God, it is a losing hand. The discipline comes as an attempt to turn that losing hand into a winning hand.

Make no mistake: I believe myself to be no less in need of discipline than anybody else.
 

Marsh

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StrangeQuark said:
1. If we are forgiven, how can we also be condemned?

2. Biologically, evolution is a fact, and most likely all life on earth evolved from asexual species.

3. You do say you believe in a loving God, one who loves as a Father loves his children. Why would a Father who really loves his children destroy them--for any reaosn?


Point 1: If you kick me in the cha-chas today, and I forgive you, that doesn't mean that you are automatically forgiven when you do it again tomorrow:)

Point 2: I can't argue with this because I am a Creationist. I think there is room for science and evolution in my beliefs, but I believe that God created us male and female, and for a reason.

Point 3: I was actually replying directly to what Moshin had said about Sodom, which was destroyed. And I didn't say that God was going to destroy anybody. As a matter of fact, he promises just the opposite.

Personally, I don't believe that any homosexual person is loved less than a heterosexual person, or that any homosexual person will be disciplined or destroyed for the sake of being homosexual. But I will say this:

(Marsh braces himself for impact)

Jesus promises that he will come and make his abode in the heart of anyone who keeps his commandments, which includes loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. No homosexual born homosexual who remains in a homosexual relationship will be destroyed because of it, but any homosexual who gives up sex to follow God's commandments--because he or she loves God that much--gives up more than anyone else. This is a truly great expression of love.
 

Avinash

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As it was in the beginning

Dear Marsh Namaskar,

Marsh said:
Point 1: Yes, I agree completely that animals as well as humans are born homosexual. I don't, however, believe it is natural insofar as I don't believe that being born lame is natural. Yet I do believe that it happens beyond the control of the baby.

Perhaps it is the different us of the word 'natural' then. Anything that comes about without the interference of human culture could be called natural. I think what you mean is 'desirable'. So you view homosexuality as an undesirable handicap. I would disagree with that. Homosexuals have always had children and now they are even raising them in homosexual relationships. As for the "sexual organs that don't fit", I can assure you that in the human world as well as in the animal world this has been no hindrance for satisfying sexual acts taking place.

Point 2: I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. There are a lot of things wrong with the world today. However, only certain people--like homosexuals-- take flack for it because as you've pointed out they are different enough that they stand out. Nobody points their finger at an exceedingly wealthy and greedy man the way that they point it at a gay man. But for every rich man in the world there are hundreds or thousands of poor people. Who does more damage?

I think you made the causal link between accumulated sin in the world and the "plight" of homosexuals. That's what I object to.

Point 3: I don't agree. I believe that men and women were created for each other. I'm not saying that homosexuals cannot love each other like a heterosexual couple; I cannot make such a claim, because I don't know. My personal opinion is that homosexuality has been around for a long, long time, but that it wasn't around in the beginning.

The attraction between the two sexes was created in order for procreation to take place, that's all. For some reason not all individuals are attracted to the opposite sex. Your idea about "the beginning" probably comes from your religious scriptures. My idea of the beginning is the Big Bang. Since there is homosexuality among all animal species, there is every reason to believe that it has been there since the beginning of life.

Point 5: Discipline and judgment are for everybody; not just for homosexuals. We all get dealt a hand; the cards are different, but they are all the same in the end: without God, it is a losing hand. The discipline comes as an attempt to turn that losing hand into a winning hand.
Make no mistake: I believe myself to be no less in need of discipline than anybody else.

Again, first you made the association between homosexuality and the "sins of humanity" and now you did the same for the need for "discipline and judgment". You are judging homosexuality yourself and trying to hide your tracks. God doesn't like his sons and daughters to abuse their precious minds for crude thinking but He doesn't care a bit about what type of organs are involved.

Andrew
 

iBrian

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Marsh said:
(Marsh braces himself for impact)
No need for that - you have shown great consideration and restraint when posting your opinion here - perhaps more than was necessary. Although there will always be disagreements on this forum regarding a whole variety of matters, diversity here is our strength. :)
 

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I said:
No need for that - you have shown great consideration and restraint when posting your opinion here - perhaps more than was necessary. Although there will always be disagreements on this forum regarding a whole variety of matters, diversity here is our strength. :)

Yes, while writing my response I noticed it came out rather strong. But when I read it again it seemed to cover my thoughts well. I don't know how else to express my objections to that particular way of thinking. Perhaps others would care to comment in what way my posting is out of line or perhaps you, Brian could advise me in which manner I should have better expressed myself.

Andrew
 

iBrian

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There's no problem. :)

It is the nature of such contentious subjects to create strong emotions. However, here we are able to express our opinions without attacking other people. There is some degree of mutual respect required. I believe we are all doing fine with that - in general - across the boards. :)
 

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Marsh said:
Point 1: If you kick me in the cha-chas today, and I forgive you, that doesn't mean that you are automatically forgiven when you do it again tomorrow:)

Point 2: I can't argue with this because I am a Creationist. I think there is room for science and evolution in my beliefs, but I believe that God created us male and female, and for a reason.

Point 3: I was actually replying directly to what Moshin had said about Sodom, which was destroyed. And I didn't say that God was going to destroy anybody. As a matter of fact, he promises just the opposite.

Personally, I don't believe that any homosexual person is loved less than a heterosexual person, or that any homosexual person will be disciplined or destroyed for the sake of being homosexual. But I will say this:

(Marsh braces himself for impact)

Jesus promises that he will come and make his abode in the heart of anyone who keeps his commandments, which includes loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. No homosexual born homosexual who remains in a homosexual relationship will be destroyed because of it, but any homosexual who gives up sex to follow God's commandments--because he or she loves God that much--gives up more than anyone else. This is a truly great expression of love.

Nah, no impact. Good reply, actually. It's certainly structured better than my own and I respect it.
 

Marsh

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Natural vs. Desirable

Avinash said:
1. Perhaps it is the different us of the word 'natural' then...I think what you mean is 'desirable'. So you view homosexuality as an undesirable handicap.

2. I think you made the causal link between accumulated sin in the world and the "plight" of homosexuals. That's what I object to.

3. Your idea about "the beginning" probably comes from your religious scriptures.

4. Since there is homosexuality among all animal species, there is every reason to believe that it has been there since the beginning of life.

5. You are judging homosexuality yourself and trying to hide your tracks.

6. God doesn't like his sons and daughters to abuse their precious minds for crude thinking but He doesn't care a bit about what type of organs are involved.

Point 1: Please don't put words into my mouth. Here is what I actually meant: Since I am a creationist, I believe "natural" means "intended by God." I don't believe that homosexuality was intended by God. I think it is a phenomenon that has developed over time.

Point 2: No, I made a causal link between the sins of the past and the reality of the present, which includes homosexuality. Our world is sick; the disease is called sin, and the symptoms are everywhere. The problem is that many people point to these symptoms as being problems themselves.

To me, homosexuality is one indication that the equilibrium in which this world began has been thrown off. But it is one out of, say, a thousand indications, or even a million. Think of a child is born with cancer. We don't persecute that child for having cancer, do we? But we do admit that this is not a natural occurance, and in this admission we look for the cause.

And no, I'm not saying that homosexuality is a cancer; I'm just trying my best to make an analogy.

Point 3: Yes it does. Hence the reason for me chatting on a religious forum.

Point 4: I don't believe that is true. Ask any evolutionist if they believe every trait of every species current in the world was there in the beginning. What about language? Since everybody in the world speaks a language, by your reasoning every language current in the world today would also have been current at the beginning of life.

Point 5: I'm not judging anybody. I am stating my opinions. What I feel you are trying to do is to scare me away from doing so.

Point 6: Are you a prophet? Do you speak for God?

I think the big misunderstanding is that some of you believe that by admitting homosexuality is not what was intended by God, by default that makes the rest of us the image of what was intended by God. Nothing can be farther from the truth. Who is there among us who has not cheated another person in order to get something that they wanted? Or who has not turned away a fellow human being in need because it wasn't convenient at the time? Who is there who has given all of their possessions to the poor so that starving children could eat? Who has invited a homeless stranger into their home to have a good night's sleep? And most importantly, who is there in the world who has done all of these things and more, and still would judge and condemn another human being? Who is prepared to cast the first stone?

Not me. And if I do may five be cast back at me.
 

Avinash

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God's intentions

Dear Marsh Namaskar,

Marsh said:
Point 1: Please don't put words into my mouth. Here is what I actually meant: Since I am a creationist, I believe "natural" means "intended by God." I don't believe that homosexuality was intended by God. I think it is a phenomenon that has developed over time.

I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth but your viewpoint is quite clear to me. So if God did not intend homosexuality, then why is homosexuality part of His creation? Does the process of God's creation not still continue to this very day? How do you then see God's involvement in His creation? And how do you explain that homosexuality in e.g. populations of apes and monkeys is just as common as it is among humans? Are these animals also sinners who need to be cured?

Point 2: No, I made a causal link between the sins of the past and the reality of the present, which includes homosexuality. Our world is sick; the disease is called sin, and the symptoms are everywhere. The problem is that many people point to these symptoms as being problems themselves.

So are you saying that sin is a problem that can be cured like a disease? Is there then perhaps a medicine for this "disease" of sin? In my country homosexuality is not seen as a "problem" by many people. Politicians, artists, students, professionals are quite open about their homosexuality and they even get married and raise children. In Scandinavian countries the attitudes are very similar.

To me, homosexuality is one indication that the equilibrium in which this world began has been thrown off. But it is one out of, say, a thousand indications, or even a million. Think of a child is born with cancer. We don't persecute that child for having cancer, do we? But we do admit that this is not a natural occurance, and in this admission we look for the cause.

Cancer is a disease, just like the lame man was handicapped. Homosexuality is not a disease nor a handicap. People can have very happy lives if they are not bothered by heterosexuals who try to impose their ideas of what is normal or natural.

Point 4: I don't believe that is true. Ask any evolutionist if they believe every trait of every species current in the world was there in the beginning. What about language? Since everybody in the world speaks a language, by your reasoning every language current in the world today would also have been current at the beginning of life.

You picked the wrong analogy. Language has evolved as a way for people to be better equiped to survive in a harsh environment. Animals have always had genes and they have always had hormones. That's why there has always been a certain percentage within each population of animals which has turned out different in their sexual behaviour.

Point 5: I'm not judging anybody. I am stating my opinions. What I feel you are trying to do is to scare me away from doing so.

No, in fact I encourage you to be as open and clear about your ideas as possible so people can know such ideas better.

Point 6: Are you a prophet? Do you speak for God?

I do so no more than you do when you translate what you read in your scriptures into what you write here. I do the same for the scriptures I use. In the scriptures I use there is no mention of homosexuality and it is suggested that all God wants from us it to get closer to Him (to move away from crudeness). Living either as a heterosexual or a homosexual as such has no bearing on whether we get cruder or less crude.

I think the big misunderstanding is that some of you believe that by admitting homosexuality is not what was intended by God, by default that makes the rest of us the image of what was intended by God.

We will not get any closer to each other on this point because I can never agree with you that God did not intend homosexuality. I believe God loves everyone equally and is in full control of His creation. Yes, God does not wish for anyone to suffer but that is the way He made this creation, i.e. with both pleasure and pain. Whether someone with a lame leg, with cancer or indeed with red hair suffers, depends as much on the society that person lives in and that person's own attitude than on his/her condition. These conditions in themselves are not perse related to any sins that may have been commited in the past by them or by the society as a whole.

Regards,
Andrew
 

Marsh

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Avinash said:
1. So if God did not intend homosexuality, then why is homosexuality part of His creation?

2. So are you saying that sin is a problem that can be cured like a disease? Is there then perhaps a medicine for this "disease" of sin?

3. In my country homosexuality is not seen as a "problem" by many people. Politicians, artists, students, professionals are quite open about their homosexuality and they even get married and raise children.

4. Homosexuality is not a disease nor a handicap. People can have very happy lives if they are not bothered by heterosexuals who try to impose their ideas of what is normal or natural.

5. ...there has always been a certain percentage within each population of animals which has turned out different in their sexual behaviour.

6. I do so no more than you do when you translate what you read in your scriptures into what you write here.

Point 1: Free will. It led to sin. Sin has consequences.

Point 2: Yes, and there is a cure. His name is Jesus :)

Point 3: I care very little about the attitudes of politicians. If you haven't noticed, politics isn't a very moral sporting arena. By the way, if you would have actually read my last post you would have noticed that I explicitly said that homosexuality was not a problem.

Point 4: Did I impose my values on anybody here? I'm sorry if I did. I only meant to share them.

As for homosexuality not being a handicap... I don't know for sure because I'm not a father yet, but I've got a pretty strong feeling that holding in one arm a child that is your own flesh and blood, and in your other the love of your life, is one of the greatest joys a human being can experience. Homosexuals will not share such an experience. I feel that is a handicap.

Other than that, I agree that as any person a homosexual person will live as happy a life as possible.

Point 5: So you were there in the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth and both heterosexual and homosexual animals, that you can make this claim?

Point 6: So then it isn't me speaking for God, but the scripture. And so it should be. Which has more authority: the word of one's fancy, or the word of God? Or if you don't believe that the scriptures are the word of God, then call it wisdom that has withstood thousands of years. Either way, it's a better touchstone for truth than politicians.


No, I think the reason why we will not come to an agreement in this matter is far more complex than you think.
 
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