Fleeing

Vajradhara

Vajradhara

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Namaste all,

to save the thread from further derailment, i've started up our discussion, here, Zenda.

hmm... well... how do i say it... i'm disenfranchised by all the political parties that currently exist in the United States. so Bush being re-elected doesn't really influence my decision all that much.

to be honest with you.. my decision on this issue rests on a few basic points.. which, although rather trivial and silly, in most repects, are, nevertheless the issues that i'm concerned with.

i'm very partial to Norway, by the by, as they are an officially secular nation and have the highest standard of living in the western world, so the reports say.

to be honest with you, since i served in the US Military, i was a pretty nationalistic sort of person at one point in my life. for better or worse, that is no longer the case. i don't really view people as Americans or Brits or Germans or Pakistani... i simply see them as humans.. all of us together struggling to find peace, happiness and security for ourselves and our loved ones.

that's my nation, so to speak.. the mass of humanity.

though.. when i'm very honest with myself about these things and view them objectively, for the most part, it's irrelevant to me which country that i live in or that i'm a citizen of. having said that, America does have some things that other countries do not... specifically, my job :) although it won't be a lifetime job.. it is one that i currently enjoy.. and... surprisingly enough, my debtors like to get their money... go figure :)

i guess.. in the end, the election of any particular political figure wouldn't be enough for me to leave. however, the removal of my ability to practice my religion free of persecution would be.
 
I take the Diogenes approach. I'm a citizen of the world and a man without a country. I've never voted (it never seems to matter who wins, diplomacy is masturbation). That said, I'd rather live alone in the artic than set foot in europe or the middle-east.
 
Thank you for that reply!

My mother-in-law recently returned from a trip to Australia. According to her, Australians think all politician are b*stards. Also, if one party has been in power for a certain amount of time, Australians elect the other party so "they can have a go at it." This seems like a good perspective to me.

As much as I disagree with GWB (and as embarassed as I am by his actions), I wouldn't leave the US either if he gets re-elected. As far as government's go, this one isn't horrible, no matter what the pundits scream and yell.

I've always like the Winston Churchill quote:
"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time." -- Winston Churchill.

But then I've always liked this quote too:
“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.” — H. L. Mencken :p

Besides, to me, all politics are local. I feel strongly that making my community a better place to live -- compassionate and peaceful -- will ripple out to other communities. And it's really why I'm a Buddhist. If I can find a way through my delusion and be able to exist peacefully and compassionately, then maybe I can stop adding to the delusion and violence of the world, making it just a slightly better place.

A little naive (and perhaps deluded), but there it is.

With metta,
Zenda
 
It'll be surprising if Bush is re-elected - but if he is the hawks are looking next at Iran.
 
quite frankly, i'd be surprised if Kerry was elected moreso than Bush being re-elected... but then again... maybe Nader will surprise everybody :)
 
I said:
It'll be surprising if Bush is re-elected - but if he is the hawks are looking next at Iran.
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That's true, but the moderate stance/appeal to the hawks is: vote Kerry because Bush is done with the war schtick.
 
Namaste all,


i always have to force back a derisive chuckle when i'm told that America is a multi party system. though other parties that the Big 2 exist, i'll give you a quick example of how this is just a shell game.

as most of you know, the DNC (democratic national convention) just ended with John Kerry officially accepting the nomination of his party. over and above everything else, that act has a pretty dramatic consequence. Kerry is no longer allowed to fund raise for his campaign. any money that he's already collected can be used, but new funds cannot. at this point, the Federal Election laws require him to be give $75 million for his campaign, from the Federal funds, which is the only money allowed to be used.

same thing for the Republicans.

what's the problem, you may ask?

i'll tell you... the Green party won't be getting matching funds from the Feds to fund their campaign.. nor with the Libertarians nor any party other than the Big 2. only those two parties garner enough overall votes to be granted Federal funds. quite a little racket they've got there, eh? only the parties that garner more than 20% of the vote get federal funds and the only parties that get more than 20% of the vote are those that have enough funds. thus, we find we are stuck in the 2 Party Money system.

as an aside... did anyone else find it ironic that Edwards says that there are two Americas (Rich and Poor) and that the Republicans created that divide? the irony is, of course, that Edwards is a multi-millionare himself.

howz that for a white man speaking with a forked tongue?
 
Two party, multi-party. Its all a rush toward a powerless figure-head, expending billions in the process.

Yeah, I voted for Nader last time, too. :(
 
Vajradhara said:
as an aside... did anyone else find it ironic that Edwards says that there are two Americas (Rich and Poor) and that the Republicans created that divide? the irony is, of course, that Edwards is a multi-millionare himself.

howz that for a white man speaking with a forked tongue?
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As far as Edwards being rich...at least he earned his money (no matter what your view of lawyers), rather than being given it on a silver platter, as Bush was - and as Kerry was, for that matter. And at least Edwards, who did not grow up rich, recognizes that there seem to be two sets of rules in this country - one for the rich and one for the rest of us.

And, on the subject of parties other than the Democrats and Republicans not being able to get matching funds - I'm not sure that I have all that much problem with that. Yes, it limits who gets to run for office. That is not a good thing. On the other hand, if any party who wished to declare itself and produce a presidential candidate got the matching funds, no matter their demonstrated level of support, how many yahoos would suddenly create themselves a party and make themselves the candidate of that party, just to get the matching funds? So, I do think that there needs to be some demonstrated level of support for a party before giving it's candidate money. Maybe 20% of the vote is a high threshold. I wouldn't be comfortable with putting it under 10%. And, under that criteria, I don't believe that Nader's party from the 2000 election (Greens, wasn't it?) would meet even that level of support - didn't Nader get just 6% or 7% of the vote?

It is actually a sort of feedback loop - a party isn't going to get the support until it gets money, and it isn't going to get money until it demonstrates a certain level of support. That might not be right, and it might not be fair, but in a world of practical realities and in which too damn much money already gets spent getting people elected, I just can't support throwing dollars at every special interest group - because that is what a lot of them would be - getting money just for talking someone into running for president.

My two cents.:)
 
"It'll be surprising if Bush is re-elected - but if he is the hawks are looking next at Iran."

as an american id have to disagree with this and agree with vaj, personally i dont think kerry has a snowballs chance in hell of winning, unless the powers that be want him there for some reason..

regardless, i dont think it matters whos the puppet, where living in a newage rome here people, in the end the wheel will just continue to go round and round

you cant please everyone, and even if you could they would still want more and more

as for "fleeing" i think id enjoy china, i know they are communists and the standard of living is lower then the west, but ive never been one for comforts of sorts, i just think thered be nothing cooler then doing my martial arts at wu dang or songshan or hubei or emei or or..well you get the point ;)

amitabha
 
regardless, i dont think it matters whos the puppet, where living in a newage rome here people, in the end the wheel will just continue to go round and round
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Amen. I get criticized by my friends all the time because I'm so political and yet I never vote. What the hell does it matter? It reminds me of the chatter when sports zealots watch a football game or something. So much excitement for so little accomplishment. Look at the subjects of the debates. All about moral character, nothing about issues.

As for Iran, I predict it'll become a nuclear power, and throw that weight around, ala North Korea, unchallenged.
 
Namaste all,


just to continue the discussion...

if Iran does weponize their atomic material, i predict that Israel will do the same thing that it did to Iraq... pre-emptive airstrike.

though they don't like to talk about it, i think it's pretty well established that Israel has atomic weapons and the capability to deploy them.

......

leaving aside national level political elections for a moment... what i find odd is that even at the local city level of government there are rarely any independent parties. i use that term loosely, of course :) still... one would think that at least on this level where the funds required to run for office aren't so great, you'd find more diversity.

of course, what happens, is that the Big 2 use their funds to support local level politicians and just perpetuate the cycle.

as for China... man... if they could just get rid of that government! it'd be wonderful to live there... to visit some of the historical shrines and temples.. i'm that sort of person...

i don't know what it is... but actually touching historical buildings and so forth really has a powerful effect on me. i recall going to Athens when i was young and walking around on the Acropolis... which, i understand, you cannot do any longer... pity that. touching the Parthenon with my own hands....i really can't describe the experience... it was very moving, as you can tell :)
 
The Washington Hawks have been trying to pin an nuclear weapons program on Iran, but the IAEA very recently published a report refuting the American evidence - a couple of particles of processed nuclear matter found in Iran can apparently be traced directly to specific projects in Pakistan and North Korea - countries that Iran has had equipment delivered from.
 
if Iran does weponize their atomic material, i predict that Israel will do the same thing that it did to Iraq... pre-emptive airstrike.
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Everyone is silently hoping that so they can throw their hands in the air and say, 'oh, those crazy Jews' and escape action, but that'll never happen. Its a different world than when Israel took out Saddam's plants in 1981. It'll be another North Korea. I doubt they'd turn too rogue unless the current secular underclass of Iran's population were to rise up and threaten the political structure. Then they'd turn the country into one big suicide bomber.
 
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