A Civilisation without Money

[Kaspar]

I have often wondered whether a society could exist without money. The closest example is pre-stalin communist Russia. A policy of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." This didn't really work out right when Stalin turned it into a dictatorship.

How could a Civilisation function without universal valuable items (i.e gold, silver, copper)? Does anyone have any ideas of how our society could be less dependant on money?

Money seems to be the cause of a lot of the worlds problems like the third world debt so i think the more we distance our way of life from it the more responsible we'd become. An idea open for Discussion.

 

[KnightoftheRose]

Well, there's always the barter system...I think the last people to seriously use that were the Germans following the fall of the Roman Empire. I know that the vikings used the barter system in moderation...

However, if one ignores the barter system - a clunky system, at best - then what alternatives are really present? As you mentioned with pre-Stalin Russia, you have Communism in its purest state, where everyone just *takes* what one needs. I suppose you could somehow develop/invent a society where currency is based on something NOT material - like respect, influence, popularity (heh, bad idea)...but how that would be determined is debatable. Another possible way to destroy the currency system is by simply Sharing. Everyone shares what the community needs, kind of like the hippie commune. If you have skills, you give them to the community. This way, everybody serves, and is in return, served. Of course, greed, possessiveness, and general human unwillingness to cooperate will inevitably destroy this system...

This problem is the same for every system, not just the 'Sharing' system - is there anyway to cure the human greed for material things? Take away the money, and unscrupulous people will just find a way around that, abusing the system in some other fashion. Besides that, would people really understand what it means to live in a world free of money? Or would the new system just be a 'new currency'? Perhaps the current currency system is merely the result that would occur with each new experimental system - the product of natural human greed.

A world without money is idealistic, but in the end, is it realistic? A society which relies upon the idea that everyone is going to play fair is simply setting itself up for demise, eliminating many ideas. Personally, I think what we have, while not perfect, is the best that can realistically exist in this world.

 

[iBrian]

Ultimately, any system of exchange requires some form of "credit" system - when we pay for goods we often no longer do so with real gold or silver or other worthy metals, but instead using credit notes - paper money - very much ni the model that Ghengis Khan created.

Yet even barter uses some form of credit - I will do A if you do B. Some credit is due.

So, yes, you can have an economy that doesn't run on money as a currency based entirely on precious metals - but IMO some form of crediting system is absolutely required for a system to act as an economy.

2 quick cents.

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

In order for to that we need to go basics, i.e. we need to think of the actual things we need to live, so that i can give a chicken and you'll give me 5 kilos of flour.

But if your need is computer, unfortunately it might be very difficult for us to barter as nature itself doesnt produce and it needs a lot of chemical parts to build that.

Lets do that, im in. After say like 5 years i will be free from all my strings to this earthly world.

i will have enough MONEY to live without money...

 

[Kaspar]

Money Maddness

If as Brian pointed out we simply had a very very complicated system of i'll do A if you do B - (some Algebra) lets call it system X- then i think there wouldn't be so very many jobs that don't really help anyone. For example there wouldn't be people getting very rich because they know how to exploit the stock market. In our society all you need is some way of getting lots of money then your considered successful. There isn't much of a connection between being skilled and being rich.

If we had system X then more people would have skills that are more based around the basics of life like farming, making clothes etc which are more phisically challenging than sitting at a computer.

I don't think we should have a full system rethink but IMO people would be better off with more locally dependant lives that weren't based around money. For example British farms don't supply most of the British population because money has made it more profitable to buy food from abroad. If we had more of a system X aproach then it would be much easier to simply go to your local supermarket that has bartered goods from near buy.

Basically I don't really like this new age of plastic wealth so

Everyone gather your farm animals its market time

 

[alexa]

Re: Money Maddness

If as Brian pointed out we simply had a very very complicated system of i'll do A if you do B - (some Algebra) lets call it system X- then i think there wouldn't be so very many jobs that don't really help anyone.

Can you give us examples of this kind of job ?

For example there wouldn't be people getting very rich because they know how to exploit the stock market. In our society all you need is some way of getting lots of money then your considered successful. There isn't much of a connection between being skilled and being rich.

Those who know how to exploit the stock market have a skill in marketing.
Regarding the rich one, well, maybe some of them didn't have any credit for their fortune and just being lucky to inherit. This doesn't mean all the rich one have no skills. Some of them are rich now, as they worked all their life to fulfill a dream and the fortune was only a consequence.

If we had system X then more people would have skills that are more based around the basics of life like farming, making clothes etc which are more phisically challenging than sitting at a computer.

Oh là là ! Do you really thing it's easy to stay all day long at a computer ? Or maybe you think no skills are required for that ? I have no skills for farming or sewing, but I'm damn good in the work I do. And yes, I have to stay all day long at my keyboard. When the electricity is down, we look at each other, as most of our information is inside of a disk. We can work without a computer too, but this tool really help us to be faster in our work. And believe me, at the end of the day you are more tired then after a physical work.

Everyone gather your farm animals its market time

There was a period in my life when I believed the same thing. The problem is farmers need governmental support. The weather is very whimsical, so if the farmer loose the harvest after a storm, he has to wait the next year to try again. And meanwhile he has to survive. Lest's say you have a poultry farm. You need food every day and good conditions for the exploatation (tempertature, humidity, space, installations for the alimentation, etc). If you want to sell poultry after a month at 1.5-2 kg you still have to work a month for that. What if you are unluck and get an aviary influentza ? You loose all you efectiv of animals and you have to start again. How the farmer survives meanwhile ?

People are borm with different skills : some are good in a physical work and others in an intelectual one. And those without particular skills do what they can.

We all work by necessity : to get food, clothes, a house to live, to go to school, etc. If you have a decent salary and you do not need to worry for the next day future, when someone is in need you can help him, as you are less obsesed with money.

 

[Kaspar]

Re: Money Maddness

People are borm with different skills : some are good in a physical work and others in an intelectual one. And those without particular skills do what they can.

We all work by necessity : to get food, clothes, a house to live, to go to school, etc. If you have a decent salary and you do not need to worry for the next day future, when someone is in need you can help him, as you are less obsesed with money.

Wise words

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

Re: Money Maddness

ALoha Alexa ;
So what you are trying to simply say is that we need computers in order to survive? lol sure you are not, oh maybe you are.. well dunno.. )

Wise-men use computer cliche is, for me, totally wrong and absurd as clicking and scrolling down is just 'a ear on the camel' (a turkish saying if you compare these abilities with the farmer's ability to read weather or a needlewoman's ability to make fabrics into a clothe.
Alexa have you ever imagined why we dont have any deep thinkers in our modern socity? Why ancient-greek philosophers are still considered as the deep brains that help us to understand the human and virtues? If you are in a society that saves time for you to live, im sure that at least some of us could take early human beings ideas about 'the life and the universe and everything within', much further or rebut their defences. Unfortunately what this wild capitalist system thought us is the self surviving, self succeeding victories are the most precious virtues among the others.
What Kaspar oder ich ) are trying to highlight here is do we really need the things that we have right now? What if we dont have them? What will your brain full of? Electric, water, natural gas' bills have to be paid, colleague is flirting with the boss so she'll get the next promotion, thinking stupidity or making intrigues began to take soooo much of our time which doesnt left any space for us to think unmaterialy<(?).

we are all a part of the same compost heap, we
are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world, you are not your bank account, you are not
the clothes you wear. you are not the contents of your wallet, you are not your bowel cancer,
you are not your Grande Latte. you are not the car you drive, you are not your ******* khakis.
you have to give up, you have to give up. you have to realize that someday you will die, until
you know that you are useless. I say let me never be complete. I say may I never be content,
I say deliver me from Swedish furniture! I say deliver me from clever art. I say deliver me
from clear skin and perfect teeth, I say you have to give up

quote from once my hero ... C. Palahniuk

 

[alexa]

Re: Money Maddness

So what you are trying to simply say is that we need computers in order to survive? lol sure you are not, oh maybe you are.. well dunno.. )

Nope, I say I need my computer to perform my job.

Alexa have you ever imagined why we dont have any deep thinkers in our modern socity? Why ancient-greek philosophers are still considered as the deep brains that help us to understand the human and virtues? If you are in a society that saves time for you to live, im sure that at least some of us could take early human beings ideas about 'the life and the universe and everything within', much further or rebut their defences. Unfortunately what this wild capitalist system thought us is the self surviving, self succeeding victories are the most precious virtues among the others.

I work in a pharmaceutical company and I have to deel with all our suppliers from the rest of Canada, Europe, USA, etc. So imagine that, if I say to a Product Manager who ask a kind of drug for one of his client's patient at the hospital : You know, I have to use the old way of communication and maybe our supplier will answer in about 2-3 weeks. This patient can die meanwhile. You may say, there is another tool, the telephone or the fax. Well, it's faster to get huge documents files, by the net. And you get written explanation for deviations done into the manufacturing process, very useful for the release on the market of a drug.

Please re-read my post and you'll find a mention about the computer as a tool.

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

Re: Money Maddness

Nope, I say I need my computer to perform my job.


I work in a pharmaceutical company and I have to deel with all our suppliers from the rest of Canada, Europe, USA, etc. So imagine that, if I say to a Product Manager who ask a kind of drug for one of his client's patient at the hospital : You know, I have to use the old way of communication and maybe our supplier will answer in about 2-3 weeks. This patient can die meanwhile. You may say, there is another tool, the telephone or the fax. Well, it's faster to get huge documents files, by the net. And you get written explanation for deviations done into the manufacturing process, very useful for the release on the market of a drug.

Please re-read my post and you'll find a mention about the computer as a tool.

if one's life should be sacrified upon the resurrection of the rest of the species (humans in this case) that particular client of yours unfortunately must die. yeah i am thinking of her/him as my mother, or myself if that will make more sense. It seems like im exaggerating but im not.

and computers... love them from C64 till now, have even one of that box game thingy and PS in my pension, the thing is i dont ******* care about them, they're there cuz i could afford to buy them.
But i will definately die if i wont eat, or cold if i dont wear stuff... That is the whole subject of the matter. Computers, i do adore them.




Mom is here, cooking her delicious cakes, wonder if she will understand if i add da weed to the dough

 

[alexa]

Re: Money Maddness

But i will definately die if i wont eat, or cold if i dont wear stuff... That is the whole subject of the matter. Computers, i do adore them.

You lost me, PNG. The thing with computers was brought up by Kaspar.

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

Re: Money Maddness

You lost me, PNG. The thing with computers was brought up by Kaspar.

oh alexa fcuk computers please... you're mising the whole point here.

Computers are ok, they really ease our life and all, but are they for real? I mean cant you live in a world of nature? A tootbrush is usefull, but computers are nothing but 'toys for big boys', all im trying to point out is that money is smthng that buys us stuff, to consume stuff.. literally we dont eat it! So a world of moneyless place is not a dream, if peeps has the balls to build one.

 

[alexa]

Re: Money Maddness

So a world of moneyless place is not a dream, if peeps has the balls to build one.

Oh, pardon me ! A place without money is a utopia. And the fact that comunism didn't work is all that I need to know about this kind of place.

A human needs reward for his effort and I think it's normal to ask for more then a simple salary when he realize something others are not able to.

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

Re: Money Maddness

Oh, pardon me ! A place without money is a utopia. And the fact that comunism didn't work is all that I need to know about this kind of place.

A human needs reward for his effort and I think it's normal to ask for more then a simple salary when he realize something others are not able to.

end of discussion huh? unfortunatelly i would like to say one or more thins about this issue alexa...

when you say 'rewards'? i guess you mean money, not a tap on your head probably, money .. what for?
what if i say that i saw places like that and living really 'happily' that the most westerns can not! What if i say the true happiness that one is always looking for could be find if one goes in harmony with the nature only? What if i quote only 'after the last tree had been cut down you will understand that the money can not be eaten'?
I am quite aware the fact that with your background this might seem utopic and absurd and meaningless to discuss and all, that you are smart and could have mahogany furnitures and high-tech goodies in your flat.
I am thinking big Alexa, when you are referring to communism i guess you are referring to our neighbor country previously known as ussr? I really am not going to discuss etatisme as it has got nothing to do with the ideas that im trying to express. It is whole a lot difference way of ruling system based on slave-like citizenship.
All im saying, i hope i will make myself more clear this time, money is what turns this world, i agree but going back to your roots, as a human being, it is actually nothing but piece of ******* paper rolls that'll only be used to wipe your ass. Though it is little bit crabby, lol. You cant change the whole system, maybe, as even people like you love money forgetting that they will die one day but what we can build, is a place where money is really not an issue! And this place my friend, really will give us the mind state that will relieve all the earthly burdens from our back and let our poor, tiring souls be free at last...



have to go to bath as mom is yelling crazy here, that i stink ....

 

[alexa]

Re: Money Maddness

You are not easy to abandon ! So be it !

when you say 'rewards'? i guess you mean money, not a tap on your head probably, money .. what for?

Definetely not a tap on my head. What for ? To pay my bills at the end of the month.

what if i say that i saw places like that and living really 'happily' that the most westerns can not! What if i say the true happiness that one is always looking for could be find if one goes in harmony with the nature only?

And such a place is ... where ?

What if i quote only 'after the last tree had been cut down you will understand that the money can not be eaten'?

Oh my, I've never tried to eat it. To disgusting.

I am quite aware the fact that with your background this might seem utopic and absurd and meaningless to discuss and all, that you are smart and could have mahogany furnitures and high-tech goodies in your flat.

You know nothing about my background, so what you said earlier are lony assumptions.

I am thinking big Alexa, when you are referring to communism i guess you are referring to our neighbor country previously known as ussr?

Nope, I was thinking more to another of your neighbour country: Romania. I was born there.

You cant change the whole system, maybe, as even people like you love money forgetting that they will die one day but what we can build, is a place where money is really not an issue!

Again assumptions !

Sorry PNG, you have to try again !

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

Re: Money Maddness

You are not easy to abandon ! So be it !


Definetely not a tap on my head. What for ? To pay my bills at the end of the month.


And such a place is ... where ?


Oh my, I've never tried to eat it. To disgusting.


You know nothing about my background, so what you said earlier are lony assumptions.


Nope, I was thinking more to another of your neighbour country: Romania. I was born there.


Again assumptions !

Sorry PNG, you have to try again !

such a place was in cambodia called a community that named themselves as the looser's tribe' and also a vietnamese village called hua-brune, and many many mountain tribes.. that was all i could see that i have to reply...

try? rest of your reply ... didnt say anyhting nor you did forward any ideas. some smileys, and bullshits, thats what i could see.. we might not agree but i should know that i am discussing the matters with personnas that make sense here, hence good luck babe

 

[Kaspar]

Re: Money Maddness

What if i say the true happiness that one is always looking for could be find if one goes in harmony with the nature only?

I think the idea of being in harmony with nature is not such a bad one. The western world was in no dely to conquer the Native Red Indians or the Aboiginals of Australia and declare their cuture of respect for the environment was evil and animalistic but i think if we look closely they - apart from their savage warmongering - sounds like quite a equalitarian society. The problem with these basic democratic societies is that they only work on a small scale where if the leader becomes neglegant of his duties, he can simply be removed by the majority of civilians. On a big scale the power is to distant form the majority of the people, and we have divides of powerful and poor, relaxed and stressed. So this links to the other thread of a World Government, IMO a more coherent society would be one which is broken up into lots of small communities with collective power, If the World was one big country then there wouldn't be much stopping the powerful from doing what they wanted. At least now they have to bargin sometimes with other nations.

Peace

 

[alexa]

Re: Money Maddness

try? rest of your reply ... didnt say anyhting nor you did forward any ideas. some smileys, and bullshits, thats what i could see.. we might not agree but i should know that i am discussing the matters with personnas that make sense here, hence good luck babe

PNG, I gave you the opportunity to clarify your ideas first, in a very polite mode.
But I you think all I say is bullshit, then you are officilally on my ignoring list.

Good luck to you, too !