Jesus clothes

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Hermes

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Now as we had survived the 12-21-12 debacle (as I had predicted!), lets move on to a genuinely interesting subject - what kind of fashion was Jesus known for?

OK, here is the question. Jesus wore some expensive garments - after all, the Roman soldiers gambled for his remaining clothes even so they were soaked in blood, after they crucified him and there are two possible explanations to this;
1) he had to be rich somehow (according to some American born again, republican clerics)
2) the other is - the Romans, (or Herod) got him dressed in expensive clothes to mock him as King.

Which is your favorite theory and why?

oh, by the way, Merry Christmas!!
 
It was normal to execute political prisoners by crucifixion in a very public place. Nowhere in the major Latin works do the Romans mandate or condone gambling for clothes.

I think it could have been added to add Psalm 22:18 to the list of OT prophecies.
 
Conduct of the 21st Century "Rome", the US military akin to those fore-bearers in the Roman Empire do not always follow strict political or military code. So, writing off the gambling story of the New Testament is not necessarily explained based on Roman code. I do not believe the Bible word for word, but I think major themes have certain allegorical or factual basis.
It was normal to execute political prisoners by crucifixion in a very public place. Nowhere in the major Latin works do the Romans mandate or condone gambling for clothes.

I think it could have been added to add Psalm 22:18 to the list of OT prophecies.
 
That is true, but of the hundreds of descriptions of crucifixions in the Latin (a guess on my part, but certainly there are scores of separate sources based on Google Scholar results), there appears to be no other example. Yes, they might have gambled for them (G-d knows the Roman soldier would bet on which rain-drop would win). But it is also possible that it was added.
 
lets move on to a genuinely interesting subject - what kind of fashion was Jesus known for?
Really? I mean, really?

OK, here is the question. Jesus wore some expensive garments - after all, the Roman soldiers gambled for his remaining clothes even so they were soaked in blood, after they crucified him and there are two possible explanations to this;
1) he had to be rich somehow (according to some American born again, republican clerics)
I rather think that's your American republicans assuming Our Lord was a republican.

2) the other is - the Romans, (or Herod) got him dressed in expensive clothes to mock him as King.
Well Scripture says they cloaked Him in a purple robe (the colour of royalty) and mocked Him, then dressed Him in His own clothes ...

On the other hand, He'd been arrested by the Jews, for whom the rending of garments had great significance, so I assume He would have been roughed up by them both during His arrest and His trial.

Then He's handed over to the Romans, more punishment ... it's hard to see what clothes He would have had left, after all this, but it's not too much to assume that He was allowed fresh clothes to be brought in when He was to be shown to the crowd by Pilate, and this is what He wore on the road to Calvary.

At this stage, I would see a schism of support. It's evident that many assumed He would lead a revolution to overthrow Rome, and when He didn't, these same who welcomed Him into Jerusalem with palms strewn before Him were now in the mob baying for His death.

But others would have remained close and loyal. Is it too much to suppose that they sent fresh clothes in for Him? And is it too much to assume those clothes need be rags? Remember, just the day of His arrest a woman poured a jar of expensive oil over Him, as if preparing His for the fate that awaited Him.

And after He was taken down from the Cross, Joseph of Arimathea placed Him in what tradition holds was his own tomb, and dressed Him in fine linens at his own expense. The women later went to the tomb to anoint Him with oils.

In short then, I would say Our Lord was neither a fashion icon nor a clothes horse, if He were, his garb would have become the distinctive dress of His followers and the Christian priesthood. (In fact, the black garb of the priest is modelled on the black robes of the Greek philosopher.)

But neither was He dressed in rags, like John the Baptist ... and with a considerable following, many being people of means, it's safe to say he had a clean shirt when He needed one ...

God bless,

Thomas
 
I see Brother Thomas, that you have glanced over the issue of gambling, which of course, IF made up, would make the fashion issue mute. But the gambling is paramount to Christians preaching of the ills and evils of courting with Lady Luck. Do you think the reference of Roman's gambling for His cloths were fabrications?
Really? I mean, really?


I rather think that's your American republicans assuming Our Lord was a republican.


Well Scripture says they cloaked Him in a purple robe (the colour of royalty) and mocked Him, then dressed Him in His own clothes ...

On the other hand, He'd been arrested by the Jews, for whom the rending of garments had great significance, so I assume He would have been roughed up by them both during His arrest and His trial.

Then He's handed over to the Romans, more punishment ... it's hard to see what clothes He would have had left, after all this, but it's not too much to assume that He was allowed fresh clothes to be brought in when He was to be shown to the crowd by Pilate, and this is what He wore on the road to Calvary.

At this stage, I would see a schism of support. It's evident that many assumed He would lead a revolution to overthrow Rome, and when He didn't, these same who welcomed Him into Jerusalem with palms strewn before Him were now in the mob baying for His death.

But others would have remained close and loyal. Is it too much to suppose that they sent fresh clothes in for Him? And is it too much to assume those clothes need be rags? Remember, just the day of His arrest a woman poured a jar of expensive oil over Him, as if preparing His for the fate that awaited Him.

And after He was taken down from the Cross, Joseph of Arimathea placed Him in what tradition holds was his own tomb, and dressed Him in fine linens at his own expense. The women later went to the tomb to anoint Him with oils.

In short then, I would say Our Lord was neither a fashion icon nor a clothes horse, if He were, his garb would have become the distinctive dress of His followers and the Christian priesthood. (In fact, the black garb of the priest is modelled on the black robes of the Greek philosopher.)

But neither was He dressed in rags, like John the Baptist ... and with a considerable following, many being people of means, it's safe to say he had a clean shirt when He needed one ...

God bless,

Thomas
 
Do you think the reference of Roman's gambling for His cloths were fabrications?
No ... like everything in the New Testament, it's contextual, and it's a fulfilment of Scripture:
"They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots" (Psalm 22:18)

My belief is founded on the Principle of Incarnation, what happened happened precisely because Christianity turns on 'the Word become flesh', but many seem incapable of comprehending the full ramification of that principle.

Did it actually happen? I accept that it did, because there is a value in contemplating the text as a reality. In contemporary culture, declaring something a myth or metaphor is a means of separating oneself from its most significant implication, of emptying it of its most profound reality. One can savour the idea, but not connect to the essence because implicit in the idea is that the essence is absent.

Why people think that God can only 'realise' ideas, and not realities, defeats me, it's an utter anthropological determination and limitation of the Deity.

The whole New Testament is a testimony of spiritual realities realised and manifest in the physical. It's neither myth nor metaphor, it's a movement in the other direction entirely, not from low to high, but from high to low. If you like, it's 'myth realised' or 'metaphor actualised'.

+++

If we're speculating on His dress, I would suggest the outer robe He wore, a seamless garment, for which the soldiers were gambling (it being pointless to cut the thing up), was most likely a gift from His mother, since it was customary for Jewish mothers to make such a garment for their sons as a last gift before they entered the world on their own.

He knew, and His following had a pretty good idea, that this journey to Jerusalem would be His last, so it seems entirely fitting. And as numbered among His followers were some well-to-do women who accompanied His mother, then I can easily imaging their preparing a robe for Him to mark the event.

John, who's Gospel is in many ways a commentary on the Synoptics, makes sure to tell us that this was in fulfilment of Messianic prophecy. He stresses the seamless garment (19:23-24), alluding to the robe worn by the high priest in the Temple service (Exodus 28:31-32; Exodus 39:27-29). The priest stood as mediator or liaison (the Hebrew word literally means "bridge-builder") between God and humankind. He offered sacrifice for the sins of the people. Jesus is the perfect High Priest who opens the way for all to enter into the presence of God by offering the perfect sacrifice for the sin of the world (cf Hebrews 5).

+++

Casting lots, as the soldiers did, is not always wrong: "The lot suppresseth contentions, and determineth even between the mighty" (Proverbs 18:18). In casting lots, at least the poor or the weak had an even chance against the rich and the strong. One of the four might have said 'I'll have his robe, you can have the rest between you' but casting lots meant they all had a fair chance.

In his "Treatise on the Cardinal Virtues", Thomas Aquinas concludes that the casting of lots to decide a matter is not sinful as long as chance and not the power of demons is thought to control the action of the dice. This he terms "sortilege of allotment" and, since there are many examples in the Scriptures of righteous men acting upon the casting of lots, Aquinas reasons that it is not a vice to divide goods or duties by this means (Lev 16:8; Josh 7:14-15; 1 Chr 24:5; Neh 10:34).

Proverbs declares that "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD" (16:33). Many see this as pre-determination. I happen not to, again, I think it's a failure to understand the nature of God. To me, all it means is that a roll of the dice will fall somewhere between 1 or 6 (one doesn't have to be a god to know that), but that does not mean that I know which number it will be.

God, of course, does know, but that does not mean that God pre-determined the fall of the die. I happen not to believe in God as a micro-manager. I also happen to believe that in this Cosmos, being relative and contingent, must necessarily allow randomness, and therefore that 'shit happens', without God having necessarily willed it.

God bless,

Thomas
 
No ... but I will take that as a complement! ;)

God bless,

Thomas
 
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