Tangent from the "Americans are ignorant of Religion Quiz" thread

Discussion in 'Eastern Religions and Philosophies' started by seattlegal, Jun 18, 2016.

  1. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Agreed. Clinging to "oneness" and being aversive to "duality" is the very like/dislike perception bias that the Hsin Hsin Ming speaks of.

    I don't know about that. Dispassionate awareness seems to clear out the bias distortions, and "yet the universe appear before you." (again, from the Hsin Hsin Ming.)

    ...which can be awakened, as we are sentient beings. (Instead of deep sleep.)
     
  2. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Agreed. Clinging to any mystical experience or state of consciousness is known as Makyo in Zen.
     
  3. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    You are seeking because of a sense of lack, the goal being to find wholeness...

    If this is not so, what do you hope to accomplish?


    You always know it, which shows you are not it.

    The mind is not separate from reality at all, it wholly depends it.


    Why?


    Again, why? What is accomplished?


    Fallacy, the mind is not sentient, it is more like a computer, just repeating what it has heard.

    Look more closely at this, and know that the one looking is the sentience.


    You say "certainly", but do they actually?

    Perhaps briefly, while identified, they appear important.

    Eventually, they will subside and you will not even remember they arose in the first place.

    That is, unless you continue telling yourself the story which caused them to arise.
     
  4. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    If there is consciousness, there is the one that is conscious and what it is conscious of... which is a duality.

    This is how consciousness functions, there is no getting around it...


    It is a fallacious imagining...

    It is not awakened at all, it is simply noticed that you are not anything else.

    Usually, because of identification and the like, we are caught in other things...

    "Awakening" simply means you recognize this is not really true...

    You cannot be anything in consciousness...

    You are the very awareness of even consciousness coming and going.

    Many want it to be an event, but how can it be?

    That event will be known, observed...

    By something that doesn't change...

    Something that knows all change.

    Another translation of Buddha is "the one that knows"...

    What is known? Everything else.

    Since there is no space between the knower and itself, it is not possible to know it.

    Hence duality arises, the unknowable has the possibility to know itself indirectly.

    Deep sleep was only an example, that space has dropped.

    It is so before birth and after death.

    That alone is truth.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  5. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    How can it be anything else?

    All else comes and goes.
     
  6. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Ending of suffering.




    I do have my mindless moments, where autopilot kicks in and habits take over. I would like those habits to be skillful habits, rather than unskillful habits.




    Because I appreciate the uniqueness of sentient individuals.




    Skillful habits will reap skillful results. Unskillful habits will reap unskillful results.




    Here is where will have to agree to disagree.




    You might want to go back to sleep. I want to awaken. To each their own.
     
  7. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    What causes you to suffer?

    Have you considered that suffering is caused by the desire to uphold the sufferer?


    These usually occur when we are lost in thought...

    When we cease to be identified with mind, we are simply here.


    Do you think this is caused by their thought processes?

    I will suggest it is mind that makes us comply, killing authenticity due to programmed responses.


    This is not really an answer...

    The ultimate result of all action is death.


    So you are not aware of your thoughts?

    I don't understand why you are shutting down this inquiry wholesale?


    I am suggesting the "I" cannot awaken...

    That this recognition IS awakening.
     
  8. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    I am not hung up on seeing dualities everywhere. I follow the non-dual of dispassion regarding like/dislike. You however, seem to be quite passionate and aversite to dualities. (This is only my observation, for what it is worth.)

    Sure. I have no hang ups regarding relativity and consciousness. By getting an idea of cold, we also get an idea of not-cold. By understanding not-cold, we can get an understanding of cold. Subjective conceptual thinking to supplement sensory imput.




    Do you recognize that this as the very identification you are condemning? :cool:
     
  9. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    We are discussing something that makes such things very relevant.

    It is impossible to understand the mind unless you understand its dual functioning.

    Yet, when mind is understood, it is transcended... you recognize your distance from it.

    This is why I am talking about it.


    It is not, I have already discussed the absurdity of such notions...

    How else to talk about it? I have even discussed this, conversation is necessarily dualistic.

    I can freely use certain terms because they are meaningless to me.

    They simply help conveying something I am trying to show you...
     
  10. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Mental hang-ups and physical emergencies.

    "clinging to a concept of self"




    Try saying that when you are 24 hours into hard childbirth labor and your mind dissociates from the body!




    Comply to what?




    All the more reason to use this life as an opportunity to grow and EVOLVE!




    I try to be aware of and appreciate my thoughts.

    I am not the one who is discounting the miracle of sentience.




    Keep on dreaming, then, what dreams may come. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  11. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Was my previous statement regarding cold and not-cold insufficient? :confused:

    And that mind may be changed, transformed, and evolved.




    Keep on dreaming, then.

    Fortune cookie wisdom: "Man who says it is impossible should not interrupt woman doing it." :p

    Of course it is. That is the nature of communication.

    Babble on, dude.

    Uh huh...what is that meaningless word that conveys the meaning, "do as I say, not as I do?"
     
  12. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    No, pain and suffering are not the same...

    Pain is inevitable, suffering is how you respond.


    Yes, but there is not a single self within mind, it is constantly changing... here I have called the identification with suffering the sufferer.

    Each of us plays many roles in our lives, each of these are vastly different, we become compartmentalized psychologically... this is often warranted, we cannot act the same with our boss as we do our best friend - at least ordinarily.

    So, while in many ways it is practical, we must be mindful that all of these are dependent on us, they are not us.


    Is this so this moment?

    It is something that happened and has passed...

    I do not mean to demean the event, I am sure this was traumatic.

    I only mean to emphasize that something that was there in this experience has come unchanging to this moment.

    This is what is already awake in you.

    These stories are your dream.


    Social conventions, laws... lots of things.

    We desire to uphold some image of ourselves, and thus hold back our true selves.


    What you actually are cannot grow or evolve...

    The point of dialogs that go to this depth is to release you from this whole mindset...

    To let you finally be what you were intended to be.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting changes will not come, they must, because change is the only evidence of the unchanging.


    Sentience is not your capacity to think.

    Sentience is your capacity to know... including knowing thought.

    I am not even suggesting thought is bad, I have to think to type.

    I am merely trying to loosen your identification with mind.

    It is a strange situation, can you imagine if you thought you were your hand?

    Yet the mind is just another tool.


    Are you not the one dreaming, thinking that truth is somewhere other than here?

    There is no where else, how can awakening happen there?
     
  13. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    You tell me, it seems you are still very involved in your mental world?


    That mind is itself impermanent... what is accomplished?


    What are you doing?

    Right now, you are avoiding an invitation to awaken because you think you know what it means.


    I think we may be about done, you are becoming offensive.

    It means I have flared your ego, so nothing else can happen here.

    I hope you have a good day :)
     
  14. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    I would have to agree. One hallmark of narcissism is the failure to recognize and honor personal boundaries.




    I do not project unchangableness onto any sentient being.

    OK...




    I'm not one for upholding social conventions simply because they are social conventions. If a social convention is harmful or illogical, I reject it, and do my own thing instead.

    Not everyone wears masks all the time.




    Please refer to the above fortune cookie wisdom. Thank you very much.

    aka, brainwashing.

    I would like to be the one who decides that.

    Oh, so you do embrace relativism when it sits you! :cool:




    Of course the mind is a tool. It senses thoughts, just as the ears sense sound, the eyes sense light/darkness/colors/shapes/forms, etc, and so on with the other sensory consciousnesses.




    I have no idea what you are talking about here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  15. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Of course I am. I try to be mindful as often as possible.




    More than what has been accomplished with unchangingness. (just sayin')




    Are you certain of that? You are not me.




    It's your own words. Own them.

    Laters.
     
  16. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    You are still offended, please stop the discussion if you do not want to go further.

    If you continue, please stop creating antagonism.


    What I mean is this mental dialog about should and shouldn't, about possible ramifications, these sorts of things which are learned and cause us to hold back.


    Generally, our masks are dropped around close friends... hence the example.


    Why do you make statements like this?

    Do you think I have said it for no genuine reason?

    Do you think I am engaging you to impress you?


    Well, yes... I wish to wash your brain of nonsense.

    You view this negatively because you value the information you have gathered.

    It has served no purpose.


    You want to decide whether to be yourself?

    I am not suggesting how that looks... I am merely suggesting it isn't this.


    The smiley shows you think you've made some stunning revelation...

    You think I have some bias... but I am speaking to convey something, whatever helps I will use.


    Our notions of mind differ, for me, mind is merely the collection of thoughts...

    I have used awareness and sentience to mean what you seem to mean by mind.

    That which knows the mind is not the mind...
     
  17. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    I don't think you understand what mindful means...

    It is actually the quality of being aware, sentient...

    This is not what I'm asking, believing thoughts is exactly what is meant by maya.

    I am suggesting you are very deeply involved in thoughts, which shows utter lack of mindfulness.



    And yet, ultimately nothing, for the very accomplisher is impermanent.



    I think you are defending yourself too much to really see what I'm saying.
     
  18. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

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    By "mental world" is meant the beliefs your project onto the world that don't necessarily have anything to do with this moment.

    Thoughts about the past, the future, all these concepts you use to perceive life.

    None of them are actually true.

    That isn't to say they are wholly invalid...

    I believe there is a bathroom half way down the hall, this is experientially confirmed...

    Yet, I don't need to go, so it is effectively irrelevant this moment.
     
  19. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Quit making unsubstantiated allegations and I will quit refuting them. :)




    Yes. I have questioned these cultural nomos since I was a child--bringing them into consciousness and examining them, holding onto the ones that are logical, and exposing the ones that are illogical.
    wiki link to Nomos (sociology)




    agreed




    To refute unsubstantiated claims such as this:
    I'm sure you had your reason.

    Nope.




    You generally have to apply the technique to yourself first, if you want to be credible.

    I don't go blindly into brainwashing. I question and test a lot.

    Let me be the judge of that, m'kay?




    I want to be able to steer how I evolve myself.

    I've already stated that I'm still a work in progress.




    You are doing a marvelous job conveying that you project unsubstantiated claims on others before checking to see if it might possibly be a psychological projection.




    Mind is one of the six sense-base consciousness that senses thoughts. (according to Buddhism)
     
  20. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Would you mind posting some links as to exactly where you came up with this? Thank you in advance.





    Impermanence allows change and evolution to occur.





    Then quit making unsubstantiated attacks, then, and set a good example yourself by listening.
    Show me how it's done.
     

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