Is Scientific Materialism enough to live happily?

[Fenrus Grim]

Hi, everybody! My first post here.

I was wondering, with the increasing prevalence in the World Culture of a Scientific Materialist perspective (at least in the developed countries), where all that exists is matter and the scientific method is the sole method of knowing the world, can human beings be happy in a world devoid of religion and magic?

I was wondering because, despite the fact that science and technology have proven itself time and time again (it is thanks to science, and the Rationalistic philosophy that science depends upon, after all, that I'm speaking to you right now via your computer) and despite the fact that science and technology have provided many of us with a standard of living that could never have been dreamed of in, say, religion dominated Medieval Europe, there still seems to be a certain malaise that I can't describe that seems to hang over the modern world. This malaise I feel might be the source of much of the spiritual yearning that many people feel today.

Or am I missing the point, and human beings are innately "designed" to think in a magical, religious way; and Scientific Materialism is merely people being fooled into thinking that Matter is all there is due to being hypnotized by fancy gadgets and gizmos, and a personal environment that has been made almost completely artificial?

So, can anyone help me out with my questions?

Thank you all,

Fenrus Grim

 

[iBrian]

Hi Fenrus Grim, and welcome to CR.

As for the questions - science itself never addresses spirituality of divinity, because such things cannot be quantified - as the more intelligent scientists will often iterate, science never cannot address the "why", merely the "how".

As for the rest - we are naturally social animals, but our social connections (not least extended family and social gatherings) have been badly eroded in Christian Europe for centuries - you have the Reformation banning public feasts and gatherings that were the big social gatherings of the prior Middle Ages - building into the destruction of the extended family since industrialisation, where workers must move out form the family to seek work - splitting grandparents from parents by distance, and creating additional pressues on the family unit.

The general dissatisfaction with the trappings of Western Consumerism I would suggest as a big part of that - we lack purpose and group bonds that otherwise give us purpose.

A personal 2c though.

 

[mirrorinthefog]

Welcome to CR Fenrus Grim

I, Brian already covered most of what I wanted to say, I would just like to add that, although technology has raised the standard of living in developed, industrialized countries, it has been used as a means of exploitation and oppresion in countries that have fallen behind in the industrial and technological race. Science has given us advances in medicine, computers, the internet, iPods, TV and cars, but it also gave us the atomic bomb, Napalm, automatic weapons, tanks, and a faster, more efficient way to destroy our planet.

Modernity and the rational ethos have not proven themselves as a better, happier way of life as compared to previous eras, only as an alternative. And as I, Brian pointed out, it can only answer part of the equation-the "how" as opposed to the "why".

Rational though we try to be, we are not computers, and our subjective nature demans that these questions be addressed.

 

[Sacredstar]

Well from my perspective scientists are moving into the metaphysical at last so onwards and upwards.

It is up to the individual to decide their 'reason' for being on planet earth and they can only do this by not looking at the universe in a material way.

It is now written by scientist William Tiller that even scientific results can be effected by conscious intent. For me this really questions the validity of some scientific and medical research.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[Sacredstar]

In the last two years I have been impressed by the sheer volume of research and papers which is taking scientists away from old dogma.


From Psychosomatic to Theosomatic: The Role of Spirit in the Next New Paradigm

Jeff Levin, Ph.D., M.P.H.

The body-mind revolution of the past four decades has had considerable impact on biomedical science, health research, and the practice of medicine. This psychosomatic approach, however, is not so much the "new paradigm" that is often heralded, as rather a transitionary perspective to a more comprehensive worldview that is beginning to emerge in biomedical discourse. The science and medicine of the 21st Century will be informed by a body-mind-spirit perspective that acknowledges the influence of God or Spirit on the functioning of the physical vehicle and its subtle emanations and fields. Such a theosomatic medicine will be a real new paradigm which promises to transform the practice of medicine, the content of biomedical research, and our understanding of disease prevention, health, and healing.

KEYWORDS: Epidemiology, psychosomatic medicine, herd immunity, religion, spirituality

 

Manifesto for a New World Medicine

James Gordon, M.D.

This keynote address present an overview of the New World Medicine, a way of approaching health and illness that is enlarging the premises, practices and structure of modern biomedicine, and attracting tens of millions of patients in the United States. The New Medicine, which is being developed jointly by physicians and other practitioners and patients in the United States, combines the precision of modern science with the wisdom of ancient healing. It explores and integrates the healing practices of many cultures including the herbalism, acupuncture, Tai Chi and Qigong of China, as well as such unconventional Western approaches as massage, homeopathy, chiropractic and prayer. It focuses on the interactions between mind and body and the powerful ways in which emotional, mental, social and spiritual factors can directly affect health. It regards as fundamental an approach which respects and enhances each person's capacity for self-knowledge and self-care and emphasizes self-care techniques. It views illness as an opportunity for personal growth and transformation and health care providers as catalysts and guides in this process.

Keywords: holism, healing, spirituality, self-regulation, biomedicine, integrative, alternative.

My knowing is that people can live happily without religion but they cannot continue to live without the metaphysical and spiritual.

Even the Royal College as set up a new group of doctors to investiage and make proposals for a 'New Spiritual Paradigm in Medicine' the last time I looked at the information related to this they are even proposing to consider the impact of past life healing.

being love

Sacredstar

 

[Blue]

Is Scientific Materialism enough to live happily?

No.

A combination of Rationality and the Affective is required.

==============================

SacredStar says:

Such a theosomatic medicine will be a real new paradigm which promises to transform the practice of medicine, the content of biomedical research, and our understanding of disease prevention, health, and healing.

Such prophecy is in the realm of the Affective.

This does not mean it doesn't or couldn't exist. It just means value judgements only can be made, because there is no repeatable and verifiable objective evidence.

My personal value judgement is that it is nonsense... though I hope researchers into whatever 'it' is, actually being conceived, find the capital to support its research.

Has anyone asked them why this concept bears any necessity, considering the advances being made in genetics and biochemistry?

This for example has been shown to be of no real benefit:
...that acknowledges the influence of God or Spirit on the functioning of the physical vehicle and its subtle emanations and fields.
As many ill people with Faith die as those without. As many with optimism rather than pessimism still die, statistically in the surveys done.
====================
In the second quotation, which again goes over the top, this is stated:
...enhances each person's capacity for self-knowledge and self-care and emphasizes self-care techniques.

There is nothing wrong with that, or reviewing the ancient healing techniques and processes. What is wrong is claiming prayer, etc., and what some 'spiritual guides' can achieve, or raher are purported to achieve, because that has been investigated widely. There is no reliable evidence to support the thesis that 'prayer' etc., is of any general use in fatal illnesses. It can only be provisonally said to do no apparent harm and give some provisional comfort, though incidents have occurred where patients have been recorded that faith and prayer has increased patients dis-ease towards the end, when they realise their faith has produced no results they can 'see'.

Please note: I am not disagreeing with this:an approach which respects and enhances each person's capacity for self-knowledge and self-care and emphasizes self-care techniques. That goes without saying... that patients according to their abilities are given all the information to make self-judgements wisely... including, ulitmately euthanasia if they so rationally decide upon it.

====================
On this Thread , there doesn't seem to be any evidence that scientific materialism is 'enough' to live happily.

On its own, it seems 'painfully' obvious that it is not enough to satisfy the majority of human beings. We need the warmth and humanity of our affective natures and nurtures.

As human beings we surely live primarily according to our affective understandings and responses far too much with too little scientific objectivism and rationality?
Perhaps a larger dose of rationality would therefore contribute to greater happiness.

I certainly believe personally both the Affective domain and the Cognitive, objective and rational Domain should go hand-in-hand far more than they usually do.
====================
they are even proposing to consider the impact of past life healing.
If so... good luck to them if they have the time and money to institute any research!

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Blue

As I have said before all the evidence and research papers are widely available on the internet should you wish to view them. The research on prayer as been extensive but yet it tops and tails with conscious intent.

being love

Sacredstar

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Blue

Such a theosomatic medicine will be a real new paradigm which promises to transform the practice of medicine, the content of biomedical research, and our understanding of disease prevention, health, and healing.

Such prophecy is in the realm of the Affective.

This was not my prophecy but I do support it positively.

This does not mean it doesn't or couldn't exist. It just means value judgements only can be made, because there is no repeatable and verifiable objective evidence.

The evidence is there if you have the intent and postiive will to seek it.

My personal value judgement is that it is nonsense... though I hope researchers into whatever 'it' is, actually being conceived, find the capital to support its research.

They already have and are.

Has anyone asked them why this concept bears any necessity, considering the advances being made in genetics and biochemistry?

Probably due to the will and demand of the general public.

This for example has been shown to be of no real benefit:
...that acknowledges the influence of God or Spirit on the functioning of the physical vehicle and its subtle emanations and fields.
As many ill people with Faith die as those without. As many with optimism rather than pessimism still die, statistically in the surveys done.

Well Blue this is a materialist view, one really needs to understand consciousness and how consciousness works. From my experience one as to work on the root causes of the disease and its subtle fields and also you cannot do this work if the disease as gone to far. Although having said that I have personally viewed and been involved in some miracles.

far too much with too little scientific objectivism and rationality?

I strongly disagree with you Blue.

being love

Sacredstar

 

[Blue]

With due respect, SacredStar, I have worked with the dying, both the mentally stable and unstable.

There simply is no evidence for claimed miracles that I have ever come across, in extensive research and concerns for many a long year!
The burden is upon yourself to provide it.

There are as many claimed miracles, probably, as people who die or recover, with or without faith nad/or prayer.

If the groups you mention have indeed got the capital to pursue this work of which you speak, please send me, or post here any relevant LINKS.

Even people in my own University would be interested in monitoring the work. and I know of others via the Web.

You have every right - of course - to disagree with what anyone posts, but I hope the grounds for that go beyond personal affective assertions.

I look forward to some workable definition of 'miracle', especially in the light of rational scientific investigation.

Personal affirmations do not, unfortunately, count for anything other than what they are.

If you refer to 'spontaneous' recoveries, which I also have observed... again the statistical work has been done in different places with the same consistent result... as many Faith based and prayerful people recover as those who asked for nothing, claimed nothing, and would deny their recovery was anything other than spontaneous and gloriously/joyfully acceptable in their affective responses and their families' responses.

Just because a 'spontaneous recovery occurs, there is no necessity to postulate Divine intervention or the 'prayerful' state, or the personal spiritual responses of the once ill and diseased. These cases are simply yet to be understood and explained in objective terms, as I have no doubt they will.

Please note I have no particular wish to dissuade you from personal affirmations and convictions that may mean much to yourself, but reason and rationality must also play its part... especially if the spontaneous recovery is claimed as a 'miracle' beyond the personal affirmations of the patient, the family or friends. They in themselves, in all honesty, prove nothing.

Incidentally, at my University, a small long term study is in progress following up those who have claimed miraculous cures... one third of the population have already died owing to recurrence of the problem... one, after three years of apparent good health after a spontaneous 'recovery'. Roughly one third spoke of their spontabeous 'recovery' as miraculous (What they meant by that was various)... only two put it down to prayer and or religious faith.
Two others put it down to radically changed diets!

Remember that a miracle is defined as " an extraordinary, supposedly supernatural, event." (The Oxford denotation).
Your response to this thread must take cogniscance of that and presumeably demonstrate evidence that is not the supernatural; otherwise we differ simply in affective assertions, with no answer at all... as in fact you suggest yourself - we are
just begging to differ.

Also remember that prayer... to something/some'one'... in times of life threatening illness is simply quite a common and understandable affective response, whether it is deemed by others as helpful or not. It can simply provide comfort from fear to the individual, as claimed by the individual, and is therefore welcome.

 

[Fenrus Grim]

A Few more questions.......

Thanks for your responses, all.

I do agree with you, Brian, that the erosion of community and the isolation of modern humanity is a big cause of the malaise that permeates modern society.

Plus too, I agree with you that the "why" is important, not merely the "how".

Blue...... I agree with you that the affective is as important as the rational..... but modern society seems to want to "conquer" the irrational mind through rationality, and given the fact that a lot of misery has come about because of irrational thought (such as the religious wars and the witch hunts of Early Modern Europe), they might be right.....

My main question is this, though.....

Karl Marx has stated that "religion is the opiate of the masses". Now, I respect everyone's religious beliefs, but I also think that Karl Marx might have a point. Religion and other magical beliefs can often be a refuge for those who live in poverty with no way out, or those who live in misery.

On the other hand, though, it just doesn't seem that we can eliminate all the bad things in life, such as poverty, illness, misery and especially DEATH, (communism tried, and failed miserably, IMHO) and so religion, or other irrational, "affective" beliefs may be the only way to shield oneself from the futility and sadness of a life where most people often wind up being unhappy in their job, or in their homelife, or in some other way, and just wind up dying anyway at the end of it all anyway........

Yes, affective beliefs might be important for the living of a happy life.... but is it right to use something that might be an illusion to mitigate an often harsh, unfeeling reality? It might be necessary, but where I'm coming from (being an atheist), it might also be dishonest...........

I'm not trying to flame here, as I said before I respect everyone's right to their beliefs, I'm just wondering about the moral implications of affective beliefs used to offer comfort to people, especially as those beliefs may also be used by the unscrupulous to control people, and to legitimize unjust political systems, despotisms and hierarchies. Is it worth it to be involved in religious or other affective beliefs, if the potential for abuse is so high?

Fenrus Grim

 

[Blue]

May I personally thank you, Fernus, for a calm and reasonable, rational post which I personally think asks the right kind of questions.

I certainly agree that the whole thing does seem to turn upon the 'conflict' between the personally validated spiritual responses of good people who find comfort in their conceptions and the misuse to which such genuine, often loving, responses are put by power-seekers.

It is an historical fact that the appeal of the major montheistic beliefs has been to the poor and often dispossessed and repressed ordinary folk of the world. Indeed, I forget by whom, the Christian Faith has been described as a "slave religion".

I have always had an uncomfortable feeling that 'religion' in its broadest terms has been 'used' as a basis for theocratic government, and perhaps it is that which destroys and undermines people's genuine and often admirable individual spiritual responses through their affective natures and nurture?

 

[Fenrus Grim]

I would personally like to thank you, Blue, for the kind words.

Yes, it does seem, unfortunately, that theocratic governments inevitably destroy genuine religious feeling, not to mention the healthy spiritual foundation for many religions, through the imposition of a rigidly defined and inflexable set of dogmatic beliefs, and layers of hierarchic priesthoods that inevitably remove the common person from their god, goddess, or dieties.

Although, to be fair, scientific and rational beliefs have also been turned into dogma, complete with rigid interpretations of facts and theocratic governments. An example of this would be communism, where the State becomes the protector and "high priest" of a rigidly defined, "scientific" view of the world.

Fenrus Grim

 

[Blue]

You are of course quite right in your final comments there, Fenrus.

 

[human1111]

Hi, everybody! My first post here.

I was wondering, with the increasing prevalence in the World Culture of a Scientific Materialist perspective (at least in the developed countries), where all that exists is matter and the scientific method is the sole method of knowing the world, can human beings be happy in a world devoid of religion and magic?

So, can anyone help me out with my questions?

Thank you all,

Fenrus Grim

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years and we never have been absolutely happy. Today despite being #1 in technology, Developed world leads in the number of depressions. There were plenty of people who had everything, yet they still were unhappy in the bottom of their heart and have commited suicide. As long as we live in this
imperfect world, people will still make up fantasies to make themselves feel better... Religions have not been the sole cause for wars, and murders... Remember USSR and other atheistic/materialistic nations? Saddam was secular as well, didn't stop him from murdering his own people...

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

Re: A Few more questions.......

Karl Marx has stated that "religion is the opiate of the masses". Now, I respect everyone's religious beliefs, but I also think that Karl Marx might have a point. Religion and other magical beliefs can often be a refuge for those who live in poverty with no way out, or those who live in misery.

Religion occurs on two levels. On one level, it is a set of coded rituals whose meaning is accepted literally and at face value and without serious question. On this level, religious symbols are means to control people's emotions and thoughts. They are also a means of justifying and perpetuating social inequality, injustice and outright brutality.

One a second level, however, religious symbolism can be understood as a means of connecting us to one another and freeing the mind.

Thus, the strange dichotomy of the most compassionate acts and the most barbaric both appearing to stem from the same religious impulses. In fact, they do not. Religious dogma and tradition inevitably stand in opposition (even thought they grow out of) the underlying philosophy being expressed in religious symbolism. The latter really doesn't change from one faith tradition to another. As Joseph Campbell puts it, they are "folk inflections of the elementary idea."

The former, on the other hand, is the source of much grief and violence.

 

[Paladin]

Re: A Few more questions.......

Didn't Maslow have something to say about this phenomena? As I recall he saw that the followers of a person who had a peak experience, if they were "Non-Peakers" as it were, became the legalistic organizers, eventually eschewing the mystical experience altogether?