Rational Bible

[TheLightWithin]

I will, but it will have to wait awhile. My arm is still healing and if I write more than 3 or 4 sentences the pain becomes tremendous. Believe me, I'm just as frustrated, more actually, than you are!

I know this was ages ago but I hope you do still have a response to this. It would be interesting to see what your thoughts were.

 

[Nicholas Weeks]

Prager is puzzled by the first verse of Deuteronomy:

“These are the words that Moses addressed to all Israel on the other side of the Jordan”

Since "Moses was never in Israel" this verse makes little sense.

Yet in Buddhism & Hindu teachings a body of water separating the enlightened realm on one side from the worldly side on the other is common. Wonder if some mystical Jews, knowing that Moses was lit by God and the people of Israel were not, saw this hidden meaning?

 

[talib-al-kalim]

He underscores this point big time, saying being self-critical of their own people proves Jews follow a divine power . . . but then goes on to say other cultures lacked such self-critical introspection in their myths and other religious discourses . . .

Hold up . . . let me find where he said that.

He's right there. The Jewish prophets and scholars are critical to Jews. In fact, they only adress Jews. That's an effect of the difference to Christianity or Islam, that Judaism does not compete: a Jew is a Jew even if he disbelieves, and others are not particularly encouraged to proselytise.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Prager is puzzled by the first verse of Deuteronomy:

“These are the words that Moses addressed to all Israel on the other side of the Jordan”

Since "Moses was never in Israel" this verse makes little sense.

Yet in Buddhism & Hindu teachings a body of water separating the enlightened realm on one side from the worldly side on the other is common. Wonder if some mystical Jews, knowing that Moses was lit by God and the people of Israel were not, saw this hidden meaning?

Israel is not a land, it's a people. The land has been named after the people, not vice versa.

In the time of Mose, there was no land called Israel. Even later in the Tanach (Old Testament), Israel always refers to the people.

 

[RJM]

Prager is puzzled by the first verse of Deuteronomy:

“These are the words that Moses addressed to all Israel on the other side of the Jordan”

Since "Moses was never in Israel" this verse makes little sense.

Yet in Buddhism & Hindu teachings a body of water separating the enlightened realm on one side from the worldly side on the other is common. Wonder if some mystical Jews, knowing that Moses was lit by God and the people of Israel were not, saw this hidden meaning?

It's brlieved that Deuteronomy was written by priests and prophets 500 years after the time of Moses?

 

[Naturalist]

Yes, Moses would have lived in the late Bronze Age, but we don't find Deuteronomy until much later. The Hebrew language wasn't probably yet invented when Moses would have lived. The Books of Moses include Deuteronomy and were said to have been written by Moses. Yet, in the last chapter after he dies, somehow the text continues!

 

[RJM]

Yes, Moses would have lived in the late Bronze Age, but we don't find Deuteronomy until much later. The Hebrew language wasn't probably yet invented when Moses would have lived. The Books of Moses include Deuteronomy and were said to have been written by Moses. Yet, in the last chapter after he dies, somehow the text continues!

In fact it's believed Deteronomy was written earlier than Leviticus and Numbers?

 

[Naturalist]

In fact it's believed Deteronomy was written earlier than Leviticus and Numbers?

I'm not a biblical scholar enough to answer that. My understanding is that the Torah was assembled during the second temple period, using existing texts, obviously written earlier. So the actual dating of each book may not fit the order the books are presented. This is also why we see duplicate, yet different, presentations of the same story. For example, there are two creation stories in Genesis.

 

[RJM]

not a biblical scholar enough to

Oh no -- neither me -- I don't pretend to be one, lol. Let's and see if the scholars weigh in ...

 

[Naturalist]

Oh no -- neither me -- I don't pretend to be one, lol. Let's and see if the scholars weigh in ...

What I find interesting is that Moses came face to face with God. This was back when god was created literally in the image of man, like many other gods of the time. The Torah acknowledges other gods, so this was prior to Jewish monotheism.

Most Jews today realize how ridiculous this is, so they ignore it, and create a more all pervasive, singular deity....while still embracing the Torah.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This was back when god was created literally in the image of man, like many other gods of the time..

I am not Jewish, but as far as I understand, "G-d made man in His image", refers to spiritual
attributes.
In both Judaism and Islam, G-d is NOT a man .. not of physical form .. mankind is part of the Creation.

Now, you might cite 'the burning bush' etc.
..but I've said enough .. @RabbiO might want to correct me.

 

[Naturalist]

BINGO! That's the re-interpretation of centuries later, that I mentioned earlier.

"God made man in His image"....is literal.

This is also why God gets angry and happy, has an actual voice (burning bush), has an actual head (Moses saw it), etc.

 

[muhammad_isa]

BINGO! That's the re-interpretation of centuries later, that I mentioned earlier..

How do you know that?
Are you an expert in Hebrew and Theology?
No? .. I thought not.

 

[Naturalist]

How do you know that?
Are you an expert in Hebrew and Theology?
No? .. I thought not.

No, I'm not but Francesca Stavrakopoulou is. See her book, "God An Anatomy".

You really don't have to be an expert. I realized this at a young age.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Yes, Moses would have lived in the late Bronze Age, but we don't find Deuteronomy until much later. The Hebrew language wasn't probably yet invented when Moses would have lived. The Books of Moses include Deuteronomy and were said to have been written by Moses. Yet, in the last chapter after he dies, somehow the text continues!

Deuteronomy seems to be part of a Jewish religious history collection, continuing with Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings. Kings ends in the middle of the 1st temple period. That's how it is dated.

At that time, the Covenant was still physically existing, Salomon had a temple being built around it. It didn't contain the Torah, but the Decalogue (10 Commandments).

Every people has a language. All people around spoke Semitic languages; the Mt Sinai inscriptions are very close to Hebrew. Of course, every language changes in 500 years, compare the King James Bible. Similar to the Kingjamesish English, which was still used for any sacred texts until the 1960s, the Hebrew of the time of the first temple became the reference language in Judaism and decoupled from the spoken language.

The name Deuteronomy is Greek, given another 500 years later, and it speaks of the perception by that time only.

Compared to Genesis,Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers, it shows a redactional unification, best seen in the notorious usage of the first person for God, which is highly artificial, and wants to underline it's claim to be the direct Word of God.

The other books don't do that, and scientists found out that Gen and Ex show traces that they have been written on the base of older written accounts. Ex, Lv,Nb are much closer to the original sources than Dtn, which essentially draws from the same sources but adds some more recent laws, although it may have been compiled earlier

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Since the last time I read Exodus closely was about 60 years ago, it all is fresh now, thanks to Prager.

Little things like the Egyptian Princess who found & saved baby Moses, while ignoring her father's edict that all boy babies should be killed. One forgets that not all Egyptian royalty were monsters, nor were all Jews good. Prager points out that the Torah is not a sectarian tract that portrays Jews as always noble & good & their enemies as always bad people.

Almost all tales are with princes and princesses. But I wouldn't draw from them how they really were.

 

[Naturalist]

Deuteronomy seems to be part of a Jewish religious history collection, continuing with Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings. Kings ends in the middle of the 1st temple period. That's how it is dated.
At that time, the Covenant was still physically existing, Salomon had a temple being built around it. It didn't contain the Torah, but the Decalogue (10 Commandments).
Every people has a language. All people around spoke Semitic languages; the Mt Sinai inscriptions are very close to Hebrew. Of course, every language changes in 500 years, compare the King James Bible. Similar to the Kingjamesish English, which was still used for any sacred texts until the 1960s, the Hebrew of the time of the first temple became the reference language in Judaism and decoupled from the spoken language.
The name Deuteronomy is Greek, given another 500 years later, and it speaks of the perception by that time only.
Compared to Genesis,Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers, it shows a redactional unification, best seen in the notorious usage of the first person for God, which is highly artificial, and wants to underline it's claim to be the direct Word of God.
The other books don't do that, and scientists found out that Gen and Ex show traces that they have been written on the base of older written accounts. Ex, Lv,Nb are much closer to the original sources than Dtn, which essentially draws from the same sources but adds some more recent laws, although it may have been compiled earlier

I agree with all that. There is also a Samaritan Pentateuch. Other texts from Ur, Babylonia, etc

 

[Thomas]

What I find interesting is that Moses came face to face with God.

So says Exodus 33:11 ... but then 33:20 says "And again he said: Thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me and live."

Elsewhere in Scripture there is talk of 'face-to-face' meetings, or 'mouth-to-mouth' – but these are all analagous terms, and the commentaries explain them.

This was back when god was created literally in the image of man,

Literally, it's the other way round, and clearly the overt literal meaning is not the intended meaning.

Most Jews today realize how ridiculous this is, so they ignore it, and create a more all pervasive, singular deity....while still embracing the Torah.

D'you think the Deuteronomist scribes, and the monotheist Israelites before them, thought this ridiculous?

I read Scripture as spanning centuries, and the emerging understanding that if there is a God, and as the properties accorded to 'God' begin to take shape, then there can only logically be one...

The Greeks came to the same conclusion – I think it was Plato (not 100% on that) who pointed out that if the residents of Olympus were indeed Gods, why did they evidence the most extreme human failings and vices?

I think there is often a tendency in critics of religion – and religious texts – to pin an understanding on the text, fixed in a certain time and according to a certain stereotype, that suits the argument.

I read the Hebrew sacra doctrina more and more as a dynamic document ... mixed in with a lot of other stuff, to be sure, but the trace is there.

 

[Thomas]

One has to bear in mind that the language of the Bible, Hebrew as it evolved, and the Canaanite tongues that pre-date it – whichI shall now rather inaccurately gather under the Semitic tree is rich in a figurative-style of speech – one should preserve against reading it from a too-literalist perspective.

 

[Thomas]

No, I'm not but Francesca Stavrakopoulou is. See her book, "God An Anatomy".

She has her fans ... ashe also has her critics ... I think the lesson here is don't put all your eggs in one basket.

On balance, I find her basic premise, that the sacred scribe is not using metaphor or figurative language, but offering literal descriptions, as unlikely.