Refutation of The Pauline Conspiracy, take two

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Thomas, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I think what we believe is very important .. and more to the point WHY we profess to believe what we believe.
    That in turn has an effect on what we do.
     
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    The Jews were "non-Jews" before they were led out of Israel by Moses .. and even then some had little faith.
    You should not assume that Adam or Abraham was "a Jew", but they worshipped the One God and had guidance from God, naturally.
    Yes, 1000's of messengers from God were sent to their people throughout human history. That does not mean that Divine guidance is only intended for specific people. Does not God guide all of His creation? Indeed He does!
    If He didn't, it would be negligent, wouldn't it.

    Nowadays, we have civilizations with the majority who read & write .. not so in the times of old when only a few people were in the driving seat and were scribes etc.
    That is why many messengers were sent to the Jews .. to address corruption of God's guidance.


    Is that what Jesus, peace be with him, taught???

    You must be confusing me with someone else..
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I appreciate your point. It is published as a prosecution thesis though, not as a balanced essay. It's the balance which is lacking?

    And all the other articles in that 'Interfaith Library' are also slanted quite unashamedly and even mockingly against theism -- definitely against Judeo/Christian theism -- which is quite strange for an interfaith website Homepage? They are more the sort of articles expected from the front page of an anti-theist website?

    And also is it just not very well written and is very difficult if not impossible to really get through?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
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  4. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    As I understand it, to get one over on the Hasmonean dynasty.

    The Jewish clique, the Judeo-Christian clique, or the Gentile-Christian clique? I think they all had a beef with him.

    Generally believed citizenship by inheritance. It was first thought by scholars that he had citizenship because he came from Tarsus, a 'freed city', but more recent scholarship reckons he had it from his father, for 'services rendered'.

    Paul twice refers to his 'zeal', (Philippians 3:6) and as "being more abundantly zealous for the traditions of my fathers." (Galatians 1:14). A scant clue, but some scholars suggest that 'the Zealots' never really constituted a cohesive 'party' until unified against the Romans before the destruction of Jerusalem. Rather, a religious 'zeal' motivated individuals to take the Law in their own hands when they perceived transgression, and that was a characteristic of Palestinian Judaism.
     
  5. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    I used to think that way, once upon a time. Certain events opened my eyes.
     
  6. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Staff Member

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    Tell more? Maybe in a separate thread?
     
  7. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    I will grant that Adam and Abraham were not technically Jews, the specific tribe of Judah comes through Isaac, and then only one of the 12 tribes. Those we know today as the Jews constitute the tribe of Judah (king) and Levi (priest) and the remnant of Benjamin, collectively called "the Jews." Dan had been disbursed previously and is thought by some to have migrated over the Caucasus mountains. Benjamin got into a tussle with his brothers and was decimated. The remaining missing tribes were disbursed when Nebuchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple the first time.

    None of this negates my point, the Old Testament is the story of one family.

    G-d does, as I have been saying. With all due respect, it is you who choose to judge some as "dirty dogs." You are not the only person, speaking "in the name of" G-d to do so.

    Proof please? There is scholarship that suggests literacy was much more common during this time, at least through to Constantine and probably for a good bit after. It wasn't until the "Dark Ages" and the ascension of the Church to total power that literacy dropped off dramatically, I would posit in a bid to better control the masses.

    Look at the Library at Alexandria...ooops, sorry, the books were destroyed.

    -In 642 AD, Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of 'Amr ibn al-'As. Several later Arabic sources describe the library's destruction by the order of Caliph Omar. Bar-Hebraeus, writing in the thirteenth century, quotes Omar as saying to Yaḥyā al-Naḥwī: "If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them." -per Wiki

    -Besides leading a life of prayer and self-denial, the monks on this remote island sought to preserve culture at a time when Europe was in chaos. The barbarian tribes had won the day and the glories of Rome ceased to exist. These new leaders were not fond of Roman ways and sought to destroy anything associated the classical world.

    The classical way of education in particular was almost obliterated and those in Western Europe were more concerned about survival than enriching a flourishing culture.

    Except in Ireland.

    The Irish monks were masters of Latin and Greek culture and maintained it through the copying of manuscripts and the passing on of knowledge in various monastic schools throughout Ireland.

    It is in this context that the monastery at Skellig Michael was born, a “Golden Age” of Irish monasticism, where faith and culture was preserved for generations to come.
    ref: How Irish Monks Saved the World (From the Dark Side) | The Catholic Gentleman

    This is to show how much of the higher learning in the Roman Empire disappeared, and it was the Muslims of places like Toledo Spain (the Alhambra) and the likes of the Catholic Monks of Skellig Michael that saved and preserved documents from such thinkers as Socrates, Plato, and others. All of our modern copies of these ancient European writers come from these sources, either the Alhambra or Skellig Michael specifically.

    That is what Jesus LIVED. So did ALL of his immediate followers. So if he taught by example, as a teacher of his caliber must, then your answer is yes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  8. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    That seems to me rather difficult to prove.

    I was referencing the Judeo-Christian clique, James and the Apostles. But you are correct that by the end he managed to infuriate many from each clique.

    I don't know enough of Paul's heritage to say, surely this is extra-Biblical, but not in any of the sources I'm familiar with.

    Zeal, and zealous, are not the same as Zealot. Agreed they likely were not well organized at this time, probably weren't much more than rabble rousers at the sack of Jerusalem and destruction of the Second Temple. I vaguely recall reference to at least one, possibly two prior "Messiah" attempts before Bar Kochba, and all of these including Bar Kochba were military leaders, not religious leaders. That of course is one of the arguments Christianity attempts to use, that the Jews didn't understand their Messiah when he came, and instead created their own - to their detriment. After Bar Kochba, whoever wasn't killed or put into slavery were banished from their homeland for about 1870 years. Bar Kochba also marked the divorce between the Jewish Christians and other Jews, as the Christians did not support the uprising. Even so, they suffered the same fate at the hands of the Romans, who made no distinction between them.

    Just for the clarification, the phrase "traditions of my fathers" is a figure of speech that references his birthright religion of Judaism. Note the plural ending. This isn't reference to his sire, it is reference to his culture.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    No .. this is pure assumption.
    We know what Jesus specifically taught. There are 4 gospels in the Bible [ for some reason ] .. we can specifically see what Jesus taught from these. That's all.
     
  11. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    None of which were written by him, all of which were written decades after he was executed. The only instance recorded of Jesus writing was in the dirt, and some scholarship deems that portion a spurious late addition. What Jesus is recorded as teaching comes primarily from the Jewish Old Testament Bible.

    Jesus was born into an observant Jewish household. He would have been circumsized. His mother and father would have offered sacrifice on the 8th day as appropriate. No pork. No milk products with beef. No linsey/woolsey. Etc, etc, etc. He was a Rabbi. Explain to me how he could NOT be observant and still be a Rabbi???

    Some quotes from Bananabrain:
    As an Orthodox, practicing Jew, I hold Bananabrain in high esteem. He has long been my Jewish scholar of choice explaining Judaism, and has taught me and many others very well. His presence is sorely missed. I trust he, missus Bananabrain, and the assorted little Bananabrains are all well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  12. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    I would not describe Jesus as a rabbi, but maybe you’re using the term in a way I’m not understanding.
     
  13. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Teacher
     
  14. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Thank you!
    Very relevant to recent events, imo.
     
  15. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Just found this old thread:
    https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/16285/
    You guys have been at it for a long time, lol ...
    (Where angels fear to tread ... I do apologise :oops:)

    But I still think a formal essay of rebuttal should be posted alongside Mr Garaffa's thesis :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    New Testament references to Jesus as 'Rabbi'

    John 3:26 John 1:38 John 4:3 John 6:25 John 9:2 John 11:8 John 1:49 John 3:2 John 20:16
    Mark 9:5 Mark 11:21 Mark 14:45 Mark 10:51
    Matthew 26:25 Matthew 26:49 Matthew 23:7-8
     
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    Prosecutor are not required to present a case for the defense. They are simply required to provide the evidence. As for Paul's defenders, they appeared to be a cohort of Roman soldiers, when Paul called on his lord Caesar for protection (Romans 10:13). His defenders of today, appear to be a church made official by the Roman empire in 380 AD, based on the conclusions of the Nicene Council of 325, convened by the Roman emperor Constantine, the 7th head of the beast, another beast, of Revelation 13 & 17. In general, those church followers carry the mark of the beast. Not good for them (Revelation 19:20).
     
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    Do you even read what you reference from? Matthew 26:25 is how Judas Iscariot addressed Yeshua prior to Judas giving him the kiss of death. Matthew 23:7-8 is where Yeshua said there is only one Rabbi/teacher, and that would be the Spirit of God, and he told his disciples to not be called Rabbi. John 3:26 is a reference to John the Baptist.

    John's message was that one does not need a teacher/Rabbi if they have the anointing of the Spirit of God (1 John 2:27) which manifest itself in the Word of God, the law and the prophets. It is the one who practices "righteousness" who is born of God, not someone who professes to be saved, and then relies on Caesar for their protection. (1 John 2:29)
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  19. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    But proper courts and decent publications are expected to present both sides of the story?
    Fair enough -- no I just googled up some examples so you can have three out of sixteen. It doesn't change the fact I was just showing that there are multiple New Testament instances of where Jesus was referred to as 'Rabbi'
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    The gospel of Luke was written by some unknown author who relied on unspecified second hand accounts, who is assumed a pal of the false prophet Paul. Mark, some unknown author, who was assumed a pal of the "worthless shepherd", Peter, who is suspect on those grounds alone. John's gospel was more weighted as a commentary of John than a witness to the testimony of Yeshua. All these "gospels" were edited by the Roman church, including Matthew. If you want to know what Yeshua brought to light, you might want to first look to the Scriptures, the Law and the prophets (Matthew 5:17). That is his source material.
     

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