The Trinity: Genesis of a doctrine

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Thomas, Feb 28, 2021.

  1. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    Can you not provide references for the Wikipedia passages you post? Wikipedia articles do provide references to the sources of their information. Wikipedia itself is not adequate as a source, unless the source of the information published on Wikipedia is provided?

    Without speaking for him, I think the point made by @Thomas is that any real information Wikipedia can provide on the subject of Arius and Arianism, is eventually going to have to come down to documents and letters and historical evidence?
     
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    437
    I realise that is what he is saying .. but do we all want to go deeper into this argument?
    I don't mind, but I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings.

    We have established that the Arians believed "the divinity of Jesus was not as great as that of the Father".

    Me: They were not denying the divinity of Jesus .. this is the whole point .. they were saying that his divinity was not as great as the Father.
    Thomas: Well we agree on that! :D

    ..so is it really just about historical documents? ..do we really need those to construct a coherent argument about whether Arians believed Jesus was "very God of very God"?
    I wouldn't have thought so.

    However .. I don't want to 'bang on' about this if it's upsetting people.
     
  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    I'm not threatened
    But have we? As far as I can see it's established that Arius believed the divinity of the Son was equal to but begotten of the Father? Begotten branch of unbegotten vine.

    What later Arians or writers turned it into is irrelevant. The full divinity of the Son was accepted by Arius. What later people did with what he really thought is immaterial? It's fake news?

    That's what I've learnt from these Arius discussions so far?
    See above.
    No. But you're already decided according to your inerrant scripture, so it doesn't matter what anybody says -- your only requirement is to satisfy yourself that your own scripture is correct.

    If Arius stood in front of you right now and told you that he was in line with the full divinity of the Son, you'd be telling him no he didn't -- and then be telling him what he actually did think. Imo

    So don't worry: it's not about you banging on, but about your rejecting evidence that doesn't fit your paradigm, and making people repeat themselves continuously.

    You will never be able to accept anything contrary to your fixed belief.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    437
    Cino likes this.
  5. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    I'll have a look. Doctrinal wranglings don't mean that much to me
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  6. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    2,402
    Likes Received:
    1,082
    If I may? Just try your best to trace back your evidence. If you got it from wikipedia, look up the sources at the bottom of the page. If it is your own reasoning or inspired thought, say so, although unless based on direct revelation from the beyond, your scholarship or research on those ancient debates will be based on material available to you in some form, and you can say which it is.

    Thanks, and I'm back to reading along. I best liked the bits where I learn things I didn't know yet.
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  7. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    Thanks. It’s well written and gives a good 'beginners' overview of the Arian controversy. I don't know how more experienced scholars will feel about it, but as a 'beginner' myself I am glad I read it, and learned quite a lot from it. In the end I don't see how it's going to change anything? In the final analysis we have this:

    As a finite being the Son cannot understand the infinite God. Like all creatures the son sees and knows God proportional to his capacity and power”

    And this:

    “Arius believed that the Son was created before time, which should be presupposed as Arius believes that the Son created time itself along with everything else in the world. In other words, the Son was created before time, because as the agent of creation the Son created time itself. While Arius accepts that the Son was created before time he cannot accept him as coeternal with the Father, because that would presuppose two self existent beings.” (Page 22)

    And this:
    To me it is doctrinal wrangling. Why does it matter so much? Trinitarian Christians believe Christ is THE Son of God. Fully God, and fully man. Begotten branch of unbegotten vine. The finer points will always be mysterious to human minds. Muslims believe TCs will go to hell for their belief. TCs don't give a fig what Muslims think they should believe. No offence to Muslims intended or implied.

    Where is the middle ground?

    Each to his own. Does God care for human wrangling? God knows the heart and soul of every person.
    Blessings, brother Muhammad

    (edited ...)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  8. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    437
    A good question .. why DOES it matter so much? Why does this topic cause men to kill each other from before Muhammad was born up until this day?
    [ a clue .. the devil loves to divide & rule ]

    Indeed "the One God" knows all.
    ..and may God bless you.
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    Most often they use religion as a cloak. Anyway ...
     
  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    I hope @Thomas will not mind that I have tried to collect the relevant parts of his recent posts on the subject of Arianism and the Trinity together here, including his excerpts from letters etc, for quick reference
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  11. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    437
    Repetition? Why have you have you repeated them, then? ;)

    What does "Jesus was God" mean?
    Do you think that the Arians believed that Jesus is YHWH?
    I don't. They make a distinction between Father and Son.

    Early Christian Doctrines by J. N. D. Kelly p 229
     
  12. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    Sorry. I have removed that phrase. No offence was intended
    And Arius's letters letters indicate he believed the Son was 'fully God' -- so it is not as simple as the quote above implies?
    Muhammad I don't care. I'm not a Christian dogmatist. Why does it upset you much what Christians believe? It really upsets you very much? It's an honest question. I honestly mean no personal offence.

    All the relevant evidence of the Arian controversy from 1700 years ago is contained in the collection of @Thomas posts on the subject, above:
    https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19662/page-8#post-343356 #120

    Unless new historical writings are provided to add to it, that's all there'll ever be. All speculation must be drawn from that evidence?

    (edited ...)
     
  13. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    437
    It doesn't personally upset me what ANYBODY believes..
    However, isn't it good to know how our religions evolved?
    @Thomas seems to think so .. and so do I.

    Isn't it a major problem in the world today .. how everybody perceives that "God is on their side"?

    I highly respect Doctors of Divinity, regardless of their religious persuasion.
    I would say that bishops/imams who hold high office in a nation are bound to be affected by political concerns.

    It applies to the simple, poorly-educated imam, who is dependent on his congregation for his bread .. up to Emperors and Kings.
    Welcome to the real world!
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,739
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Not sure it does, could you be more precise?
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  15. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    An academic discussion about how Christianity evolved that is one thing: to argue from a pre-position that (Trinitarian) Christianity is polydeist (and therefore evil) and that unless Christians change their belief to what Muslims want them to believe they're bound for hell -- that is not quite the same thing?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  16. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    437
    Mmm .. strange isn't it?
    If the Qur'an had been saying that anybody who didn't believe in the trinity/godhead was bound for hell, maybe you wouldn't object..

    You personally might not care about doctrine, but there have always been people suffering due to lies.
    Lying about God is the worst lie of all.
    I'm not directly accusing anybody here, such as Paul of Tarsus .. or Arius .. or Alexander .. or any of us..
    ..but it happens .. that is for SURE.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,739
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    What had you in mind?

    Not to my satisfaction ...

    Can you explain what kind of coherent argument one can construct without them?
     
  18. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    Of course I would. Don't be silly. I don't accept religion A condemning religion B to hell -- and the problem being when religion people A start thinking they have not just the right but obligation to change the belief of religion people B until it's agreeable to them?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  19. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    437
    Yes, well .. I'm afraid we can't change the Qur'an .. that's what it says.
    In the 5th century, there were no protestants claiming hell doesn't exist.

    I can't keep up with what Catholics are supposed to believe regards people going to hell .. it keeps changing.

    Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
    For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me. ...whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.

    — Matthew 25:41–43 (NIV)

    What do you think happens to those Christians who are killing each other?

    I would have thought that if there is a God [ and there is, imo ], either both groups will go to hell,
    or maybe only one will go to hell. I wonder who had started the aggression..
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  20. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    437
    ..or is that "just my speculation"?
    I think that those responsible for the holocaust will go to hell, regardless of their religion.

    That is a sweeping statement, of course. There are always exceptions.
    As you say, God knows what is in our hearts.
     

Share This Page