Has God begat a son?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by muhammad_isa, Mar 27, 2022.

  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    It is not about G-d being logical, but about a creed being logical. :)

    Why would G-d expect His creatures to believe in an illogical creed?
    How does that help us understand and appreciate His greatness?

    It is merely a scriptural tussle that has nothing to do with what Jesus has reported to have said in the Bible.
    The opinion of Bible authors, and not Jesus.

    Jesus never said I am G-d, or I am divine etc. etc.
    As you know, the main verses quoted on this issue come from a pre-amble in the Gospel of John.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2022
  2. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Nonsense.
    The creed outlines the mystery in human words, using the the terms Father and Son, etc
    You don't have to accept it
    It is what it is
     
  3. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Again, you are deciding what God should or should not do
    So it comes around to picking and choosing the bits of the New Testament you like, because they support the Quran Jesus, and rejecting those that do not. It's the same ole' circle, and I'm not playing ...
     
  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    No more than you.
    You say that Jesus is G-d's "only begotten son", which effectively elevates a man to "G-d status",
    and then suggest by an appeal to authority in order to cancel the Tanakh.

    That is how the Bible canon was decided upon, so I don't hold it all to have equal value .. no. :)
     
  5. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    It's far more subtle than that. As you well know. Sorry you don't like it. But because a person cannot or will not understand, does not negate its validity
    Not about equal value. What I said: You accept only the parts that go with the Quran Jesus. The Quran mysteries are 'logical mysteries' and those that don't fit the Quran are illogical mysteries o_O

    The Christian mysteries are not illogical to billions of people. They have occupied the minds of kings and beggars and from the wisest minds to the most lowly for thousands of years. You would have them all fools. Their symbolism reaches everyone, beyond where words can go.

    Trying to confine the Christian mysteries to dictionary definitions just isn't going to work. They are symbolic and intuitive, and God reveals their meaning over a lifetime. They go ever deeper and deeper, to those who are open to understanding.

    No-one is required to accept them. But they should respect them. Humans don't know a lot of things; dictionary wrangling goes nowhere, imo – and nor does deciding what God should or should not be able to do

    Goodbye @muhammad_isa
    Have fun ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2022
  6. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    We are all a product of our environment and life experiences.

    Many people believe what they want to believe, regardless of ultimate truth.
    Others find it convenient to avoid important issues, much like the Pharisees and Sadducees in the time of Jesus.
    ..and then there are those who know nothing else than what they were raised as. They have no sure knowledge.

    Well you know, that I'm not a literalist..
    I was just asking.. :)
     
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  7. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    That would be the better reading. I don’t want to say much more or @Namaste Jesus may accuse me of wanting to split hairs. (Luckily, because rabbits are not kosher so everyone knows I won’t eat them, it is unlikely I will ever be accused of splitting hares.)
     
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  8. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Thanks NJ
     
  9. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    I wasn't accusing you of splitting hairs. I was acknowledging your perspective and saying, I wasn't challenging that, just using the translation that went with the KJV link I used.
     
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  10. Unveiled artist

    Unveiled artist Real life Dolls

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    No. Incarnation isn't a separate god than what's incarnated. It's like saying your mirror reflection is you separate than the person reflected ... Two yous.

    The idea is people see God through his incarnation. One god. One reflection.

    That's the trinitarian logic of it. Jesus would be a human if non trinitarian. No two gods.
     
  11. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    I'm vegan, so I don't eat rabbits either. Split away, I'm always interested in the fine distinctions!
     
  12. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    ..so how is "the son" begat?
    Why are the words 'son' and 'begotten' used to describe the relationship?
     
  13. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    As RJM has explained, those are just human terms used to describe the relationship.

    Jesus was a special case, born of woman for a specific purpose, believed by Christians to have been first mentioned all the back in Genesis 3.
     
  14. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    ...so "the son" was begotten, as in born of the virgin Mary, but had always existed?
    Did Jesus always exist instead of G-d, or at the same time as G-d?
    How can Jesus have ascended to heaven to "sit at the right hand" of the Father, if they are one and the same person?
     
  15. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Sounds like you may be taking right hand of God a bit too literal. To me it simply means, that which manifest through Mary returning from whence it came. Think of it like God reaching his hand to earth to do his work, than drawing it back when he was through.
     
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  16. Unveiled artist

    Unveiled artist Real life Dolls

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    The incarnation is begotten. Son is in reference and relation to his father as other Christians are sons and daughters of God as well.

    Human incarnation of god. It's talking about a human not spirit in reference to son and beget.

    In trinity theology it's the same god just flesh/carnated. Monotheism.
     
  17. Unveiled artist

    Unveiled artist Real life Dolls

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    Say you are god and for people to recognize you, you make your reflection human looking. Trinitarians see the human-your chosen reflection (or how you want them to see you). They say you can't see God face to face so that's how you choose to interact with them.

    The reflection is not you by definition but in trinitarian theology it is you because it's your reflection.
     
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  18. Unveiled artist

    Unveiled artist Real life Dolls

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    Actually, think of Muhammad...if he is just a regular human just like us no one would give him any time or day. However, he is elevated as a means to understand God that no others (outside prophets) can uphold that status.

    The difference is trinitarians hook up with god via an incarnation and Muslims do by prophets.

    Both status are elevated. Same logic in regards to using a go-between to understand god.

    One As god in flesh and the other a human prophet Of god.
     
  19. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Hmm, but it is illogical. The Son prays to the Father .. but you say it is the same person.
    The Son teaches us to pray to the Father in the Lord's prayer.
    ..but Jesus wants us to recognise Him as "G-d in the flesh" ???
     
  20. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Kind of answered your own question. Jesus taught us how to pray and he led by example.
     
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