Cephas!

Ok but is the fact of Jesus using the (translated) words 'church' and 'hell' your sole basis for rejecting Matthew 16:18?
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Oh no! I don't reject 16:18 I just want to add info from other sources, that's all. I take a lot of interest in G-Matthew and it's inclusion of more speeches and happenings.

I focus upon Mark because I feel sure that it's author was a partial witness and must have been friend to Cephas .... I don't think the author of Matthew was a witness to events, after all, he needed to copy other accounts.
 
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Hi Badger —
I focus upon Mark because I feel sure that it's author was a partial witness and must have been friend to Cephas .... I don't think the author of Matthew was a witness to events, after all, he needed to copy other accounts.
The view of many scholars is that Mark was a not an eye-witness, but listened to Peter's sermons when Peter was under house arrest before his execution, and his gospel is derived from those lectures, so, in effect, Mark's is Peter's testimony. Does that change anything?
 
I have a huge soft-spot for Peter. Hothead, and not the sharpest tool in the box, but strong, and I could wax lyrical that Peter held the disciples together after the crucifixion. Not as a scholarly speaker-leader, but just someone they could rely on.

Peter John and James were the triumvirate until James' execution. I wonder what Peter and John were like together? John's the introspective, sensitive, 'spiritual' type (always shown clean-shaven in art). Peter the opposite. I don't think Peter suffered fools gladly, and didn't much care for 'the weak', and John no doubt had steel in his spine ... oh, to have been a fly-on-the-wall.

In certain symbolist systems, Peter is the will, John the intellect.
 
Hi Badger —

The view of many scholars is that Mark was a not an eye-witness, but listened to Peter's sermons when Peter was under house arrest before his execution, and his gospel is derived from those lectures, so, in effect, Mark's is Peter's testimony. Does that change anything?
It would be interesting to read the proposals and evidence of those scholars for their findings.
My evidence and findings put Mark amongst those disciples, and witness to some of the events.
 
Hi Badger —
It would be interesting to read the proposals and evidence of those scholars for their findings.
Papias (60-130AD) wrote: "And the presbyter said this (who the presbyter is remains uncertain, possibly John, possibly Aristion, who might have been one of the 72 disciples mention in Scripture). Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered... For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter ... " (Fragments of Papias VI).

It's accepted from the earliest traditions that Mark might well have been John Mark, a cousin of Barnabas who accompanied Paul and Barnabas on their missionary journeys. He fell out with Paul although later reconciled, and was in Rome at the time of Peter's arrest. His style indicates his native tongue is Aramaic, but that he's writing for a Roman (non-Jewish) audience and occasionally uses Roman words.

There's a lot of material out there on the question.

My evidence and findings put Mark amongst those disciples, and witness to some of the events.
Interested to hear it.
 
I have a huge soft-spot for Peter. Hothead, and not the sharpest tool in the box, but strong, and I could wax lyrical that Peter held the disciples together after the crucifixion. Not as a scholarly speaker-leader, but just someone they could rely on.
Oh, I concur. I feel a huge rapport with Peter and get the biggest kick out of some of his exchanges with Jesus.
I don't think Peter suffered fools gladly, and didn't much care for 'the weak', and John no doubt had steel in his spine ... oh, to have been a fly-on-the-wall.
Ah, would that have not been grand!
 
Hi Badger —

Papias (60-130AD) wrote: "And the presbyter said this (who the presbyter is remains uncertain, possibly John, possibly Aristion, who might have been one of the 72 disciples mention in Scripture). Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered... For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter ... " (Fragments of Papias VI).
I do think that the Gospel of Mark is mostly an account of the memoirs of Cephas, and it does seem to me that he wanted his true account of what happened to be written down.

Papias's mention of Mark, thus, :- '....neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him...' could be making mention of a single incident, such as the transfiguration, but is unlikely to have meant during the whole 11-12 months mission. In any event, only the author's account can offer any evidence of his presence during that time.

It's accepted from the earliest traditions that Mark might well have been John Mark, a cousin of Barnabas who accompanied Paul and Barnabas on their missionary journeys. He fell out with Paul although later reconciled, and was in Rome at the time of Peter's arrest. His style indicates his native tongue is Aramaic, but that he's writing for a Roman (non-Jewish) audience and occasionally uses Roman words.
Those earliest traditions suggest that Mark's native tongue was 'Aramaic', which seems place his birth and upbringing in the Northern Provinces, and that he was a cousin to Barnabas, this could place him in the North as well, with a prefix such as 'Bar'.

There's a lot of material out there on the question.
I do like reading about various Traditions and material about Jesus and his followers, the Cornish, Gaulish and Kashmir ones as well.

Interested to hear it.
This isn't a tradition, nor hearsay, in my opinion, because the author of G-Mark wrote it.
I think he was at the arrest of Jesus. I think he was writing about himself in the third person when he mentioned the youth who broke free and ran from the guards.
Question:- Who saw this happen, or has any strong recollection of it?
Answer: Only those immediately involved in that encounter....nobody else. Everybody else was involved with their own urgent actions at that time...there were NO casual bystanders observing that event. None.
If I'm right, only those guards and the escapee would remember that event.
I don't think that the guards made much mention of their failure for the author of G-Mark to ever hear about it in later years, nor for the author to consider it to be an important scene during that event.
Only the person who saved themselves would have that event in mind for the rest of their lives. Burned in to memory.

It's better evidence than any other writings, that the author of G-Mark was there. And I do think that he was originally from the North and an Eastern Aramaic speaker.
 
I do think that the Gospel of Mark is mostly an account of the memoirs of Cephas, and it does seem to me that he wanted his true account of what happened to be written down.
It's notable that GMark is very forgiving of Peter, mentions none of the 'unfortunate' exchanges spoken of in the other gospels, scholars put down to Mark's love for Peter, and a desire not to embarrass him. Who knows?

Mark was not one of the twelve, and most of his testimony would therefore have to rest on a close witness, such as Peter. However, Mark might have been one of the 72 (along with Barnabas) and might well have been a witness at a distance, as you suggest ... the man running away at the arrest at Gethsemane. Why else include it?

Then again, the early traditions that identify a Mark as the author of the gospel make no comment of him associated with Paul, whereas John Mark in Acts, cousin of Barnabas, etc., spent time on the missions, and ended his days in Cyprus, with his cousin. John/Mark was a common name, which clouds the issue a bit ... but it's all good stuff.

I do like reading about various Traditions and material about Jesus and his followers, the Cornish, Gaulish and Kashmir ones as well.
So do I.

This isn't a tradition, nor hearsay, in my opinion, because the author of G-Mark wrote it.
OK.
 
It's notable that GMark is very forgiving of Peter, mentions none of the 'unfortunate' exchanges spoken of in the other gospels, scholars put down to Mark's love for Peter, and a desire not to embarrass him. Who knows?

Mark was not one of the twelve, and most of his testimony would therefore have to rest on a close witness, such as Peter. However, Mark might have been one of the 72 (along with Barnabas) and might well have been a witness at a distance, as you suggest ... the man running away at the arrest at Gethsemane. Why else include it?

Then again, the early traditions that identify a Mark as the author of the gospel make no comment of him associated with Paul, whereas John Mark in Acts, cousin of Barnabas, etc., spent time on the missions, and ended his days in Cyprus, with his cousin. John/Mark was a common name, which clouds the issue a bit ... but it's all good stuff.


So do I.


OK.
Thank you for your points, above ..
I was very interested in your mention of G-Mark being more forgiving of Cephas, with less negative reports about him.
 
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