Is this proof that dinosaurs existed with men?

Faithfulservant said:
What would happen to the scientific community if they could prove that dinosaurs in face existed with man. I have other articles about the inaccuracy of carbon-dating if thats an argument that comes up.

Did some searching for this - the pictures are on bible.ca, and other sites quoting it include creationists.org, purecreation.org, davidgoliathministries etc. - all of which link back to the same pictures. Somewhat a suspect set of viewpoints.... especially since the stones appear to be newly carved.

There's an interesting bit at http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/articles/2003/9/1/1809.html which shows some large animals done in fabric patterns, which *might* be dinosaurs... or the loch ness monster.... or some fanciful pattern.
 
what do you mean?


nothing would happen to the community, per se. the theory of how life has acquired its' varations would have to be modified.

however... as has been said quite often, if you want to really falsify the ToE as we know it, simply present a mammal skull from the pre-Cambrian period and evolution, as we know it, stands refuted.

the ICR isn't known for it's objective scientific standards :)

check out the "statement of belief" the scientists have to sign:

http://www.creationresearch.org/stmnt_of_belief.htm

doesn't really seem like much of scientific method approch to science, now, does it?
 
Only if you didnt believe that God was the master planner of the universe and not some man-made theories trying to disprove it. I dont think there is any specific guildines on how science should be conducted. You just work with different factors when you are developing your hypothesis.
 
Certainly it's an interesting story - there's been quite some fringe conjecture of some form of small saurapod existing in the African Congo, plus some large mammal extinctions from the Quartenary era have been pretty relevatively contemporary with humans. Plus, of course, there are living remnants from the age of dinosaurs, such as the Tuatara and the Coelacanth.

However, as stories such as Piltdown Man have clearly shown the scientific community, there are clear dangers in placing too much emphasis on any single result.

It does seem that a lot more is being read into this story than it actually gives room for.
 
Vaj,

Is science objective? It seems to me that there are two basic factors in some forms of science.. proving that God doesnt exist or proving that He does. I believe that ICR is objective in saying that Yes God created the universe.. Others are objective in claiming the big bang theory and evolution is how we we came into being . Both of those ideas contradict themselves. So are the scientists on ICR men of science? Are evolutionists men of science? One gives credit to creation theory the other one gives credit to evolution theory. I found that statement offensive and Im trying to point out your prejudiced view in a friendly way because theres a lot of Christian intolerance in this world and most of it isnt even realized.

Respectfully

Faithful Servant
 
There are some unanswered questions. If I am not mistaken theory of evolution is not that old and started with Darwin 1859?

The biggest problem I have with carbon dating is it makes claims that are not even comprehendable. We can comprehend time fames to a point, but when they speak of millions of year...
Millions look good on paper and can be counted when they are dollar bills but when we speak of 'time' that is a different dimension.

Science makes claims often, then a few years later they have to confess they were wrong in there 'discovery' and things come back to a reasonable perspective.

I mean, How many centuries did it take for man to figure out the earth was round and how long did it take for them to get the calendar correct? and the bible tells the earth is round. LOL
I am seeing the same thought pattern in most of these NEW sciences.

I think I am seeing this the same way you are FaithfulServant. It is being used to prove or disprove. We don't know the exact time of days of creation, we can only guess and I think that is pretty much all we will ever be able to do. But who knows.

I dont have a problem with something being on earth prior to man as we know as in from Adam, but I think there would be a different explanation for it and is not directly connected to man as we know it.
I am starting to see the earth was well into orbit before the actual 6 days of creation, (I mean forming of the void or empty earth and creating the inhabitants within the earth) but none the less, God still made the heavens and the earth. ;)

This link is kind of interesting on bible, science and dinasaurs.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
 
Faithfulservant said:
Is science objective? It seems to me that there are two basic factors in some forms of science.. proving that God doesnt exist or proving that He does.
Ah - now there's the problem - science is *not* about proving or disproving God.

On a basic level, science is simply about measuring things, and then communicating how those measurements can be repeated. Nothing more, nothing less.

Science is not about dismissing those things that cannot be measured or even observed - they are simply "unquantified" - ie, not measured.

There are many things that we can observe that we cannot measure, and there are other things we cannot even observe directly let alone measure. Love and consciousness are two fundamentals of human existence that are "unquantifiable".

Most scientists are plainly aware that science is filled with mysteries and inexplicable wonders - it's not hard to find the giants of science openly advocating their belief in God or else being very religious.

It is the media (and certain elements of the educational establishment) that seeks to present a dumbed down view of science as a objective rule of absolutes, when it is plainly not.

Science does not determine what does and does not exist - it simply tries to describe what it can observe.

It is the common perception of many people that the following clearly applies: "Religion tells us God made the world - science simply tells us how He did it."

Or, to put it another way - Religion is about the "why" - science tries to say "how".

What's sad to see is how the "creationism vs rationalism" battle in the USA has effectively turned into a marketing battle, of unnecessary extremes. I should imagine that both misrepresent their respective positions: science is not able to disprove God, and religion is not a science textbook.

2c. :)
 
Ah - now there's the problem - science is *not* about proving or disproving God.
I think there are plenty of scientists with or without media that would love to prove or disprove it. But science itself does not do that. It is rational.


What some scientists are trying to do, is more to do it, to disprove the bible in 'God of creation' and give the glory to something else. (like themselves or whatever)
Others are using science and the bible as a source of information and denying the salvation in it.

and yes, there are some scientists who openly believe in the God of creation.

We dont 'test' and 'experiment' physical things unless we have some hope of using the results. Science makes a lot of mistakes, things we will never here about. Often they do not even know the mistakes until years and centuries later.
That is why the hype and findings do not move me like it does some.
 
Dont you think that men of science want their theories to be proved correct?? By even acknowledging that some other source besides chance created this world as we know it disproves every theory they had been claiming is fact. They are in fact trying to disprove creation theory.. and disproving there is a God or higher power that orchestrated this world into being. Do they say that? no lol they would look silly. But they are teaching evolution to my children at school so I have a right to say that I disagree with their theories.
 
Dear Faithfulservant,

In all gentleness I must disagree with you. As a biologist I have worked with many scientists in genetics and molecular biology, even (gasp!) theories of evolution. There is no conspiracy to disprove God or the magnificence of His creation. Many of these scientists are very deeply spritual people, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Baha'is, Buddhists and so on. I've known a couple of scientists who struggle with apparent conflicts between their religion and science but never have I seen one who felt it was part of their job to prove or disprove God.

The men and women of science of course want to see theories that help them understand and be able to make predictions about the material world. And it is true that the person who comes up with the strongest, most useful idea will get the grant money. But the best way to test a theory is to do everything you can think of to disprove it and this is very much part of what scientists do. And if you don't adequately try to disprove it there are lots of others who will be more than happy to do so (and get your grant money). The theory of evolution survives and is taught in schools because it is a useful model to explain what we see in nature.

You of course have a right to disagree with anything you wish and say so. However, it is an injustice to the many scientists who love God as you do to say that they are hiding truth or twisting things to fit some kind of atheist agenda. It just is not true.

Peace to you,
lunamoth
 
Faithfulservant said:
Dont you think that men of science want their theories to be proved correct?? By even acknowledging that some other source besides chance created this world as we know it disproves every theory they had been claiming is fact. They are in fact trying to disprove creation theory.. and disproving there is a God or higher power that orchestrated this world into being. Do they say that? no lol they would look silly. But they are teaching evolution to my children at school so I have a right to say that I disagree with their theories.
Science doesn't even say that chance created life - it remains an unknown process.

The problem seems to be when a particular interpretation of Genesis is upheld to be a scientifically correct version, and even taught in state schools as such.

If a literal creation from 7 days is argued for - then indeed Genesis and Evolutionary Theory do not get on so well. But from what I've read, even in Judaism there's no overwhelming argument for a strict literalism in the reading of the opening chapters as being for seven days - and I seem to recall also reading Creationist theories that accepted long time spans for geological development and biological diversity to take place.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Only if you didnt believe that God was the master planner of the universe and not some man-made theories trying to disprove it. I dont think there is any specific guildines on how science should be conducted. You just work with different factors when you are developing your hypothesis.
Namaste Faithfulservant,

thank you for the post.

i would encourage you to read about Sir Karl Popper and the Philosophy of Science. Science does work through a set of praxis that are well known and used throughout the scientific field.

hence, a group like the AiG are rather suspect in this regard since they require a statement of faith that requires them to conform all evidence to a YEC Biblical view, prior, to finding said evidence.

can you see how deciding what the evidence will mean before you actually find it, can be a problem for science?
 
Namaste FF,

thank you for the post.

Faithfulservant said:
Vaj,

Is science objective?
science, per se, is a methodology predicated on falsification of repeatable experiments. so.. i would say that the question doesn't apply to science as discipline, but to individual scientists themselves. they may or may not be objective depending on the issue at hand.

It seems to me that there are two basic factors in some forms of science..
proving that God doesnt exist or proving that He does.
science actually cannot prove that God exists or doesn't exist since God is outside of science. science, itself, is agnostic about God. some individual scientists may have views that are theistic or not, depending on their circumstance.

I believe that ICR is objective in saying that Yes God created the universe.. Others are objective in claiming the big bang theory and evolution is how we we came into being .
neither of those statements are objective, they are both subjective. the evidence, however, is intersubjective and it is said intersubjective evidence that we have to use to form our conclusions in the scientific field.

Both of those ideas contradict themselves.
actually, it more depends on your reading of your Holy Text if this conflicts or not. God could quite easily have created the universe from a single point, which we'd call a "Big Bang" (which was a Christian name to ridicule the idea, by the way) and used the process of evolution to diversify the species. there are plenty of Christian and other thiests, whom are scientists and hold to the ToE as how life came to be so diverse.


So are the scientists on ICR men of science? Are evolutionists men of science? One gives credit to creation theory the other one gives credit to evolution theory.
it's about evidence, not credit, in this particular discussion. the evidence, unfortunately, supports Gods' unwritten text, the universe, more than it does His written texts.

I found that statement offensive and Im trying to point out your prejudiced view in a friendly way because theres a lot of Christian intolerance in this world and most of it isnt even realized.

Respectfully

Faithful Servant
which statement, that the ICR isn't known for it's objective standard?

i'm not intolerant of Christians, not in the least :) well... i would be a bit less tolerant if you tried to impose your morality upon me through some type of legislation, however, that is not the case.
 
Namaste Bandit,

thank you for the post.

Bandit said:
There are some unanswered questions. If I am not mistaken theory of evolution is not that old and started with Darwin 1859?
correct, whilst he was a Christian.

The biggest problem I have with carbon dating is it makes claims that are not even comprehendable. We can comprehend time fames to a point, but when they speak of millions of year...
carbon dating is only good for about 50,000 years or so... which is why we use things like Ar dating and others.

Millions look good on paper and can be counted when they are dollar bills but when we speak of 'time' that is a different dimension.
my traditions have been calculating the age of the universe in billions of years since somewhere around 3000 B.C.E. perhaps, it was our advanced mathmatical systems that permitted this.

Science makes claims often, then a few years later they have to confess they were wrong in there 'discovery' and things come back to a reasonable perspective.
which is why science works on theories :) when you get some new evidence, you have to revisit the theory, which is either revised or scrapped altogether. this is actually a strength of the scientific process. if we didn't do it like this, we'd still be using Newtons' understanding of Gravity!

I mean, How many centuries did it take for man to figure out the earth was round and how long did it take for them to get the calendar correct? and the bible tells the earth is round.
they proved the world was spherical in ancient China, near the time they invented the compass. as for calendars... which one are you referring to? there are alot of them, you know. the Buddhist calendar has been in use since roughly 400 B.C.E and the Mayan calendar even longer than that.

I am seeing the same thought pattern in most of these NEW sciences.
"new" sciences? what would an example of an "old" science be?
 
Faithfulservant said:
Dont you think that men of science want their theories to be proved correct?? By even acknowledging that some other source besides chance created this world as we know it disproves every theory they had been claiming is fact. They are in fact trying to disprove creation theory.. and disproving there is a God or higher power that orchestrated this world into being. Do they say that? no lol they would look silly. But they are teaching evolution to my children at school so I have a right to say that I disagree with their theories.
Evolution is not Abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis is the Theory of Where Life Came From.

Evolution is the Theory of How Different Alleles Appear In A Popluation.

only formal systems have "proof", such as maths and logic. Science is an informal system and, as such, does not have proof. it has, instead, evidence. what conclusions you draw from the evidence is, it would seem, quite subjective.

you do have a right to disagree with their theories... wouldn't it be a good idea to actually know what the theory says that you are disagreeing with?
 
Hello Vajradhara,

which is why science works on theories :) when you get some new evidence, you have to revisit the theory, which is either revised or scrapped altogether. this is actually a strength of the scientific process. if we didn't do it like this, we'd still be using Newtons' understanding of Gravity!
Newtons' understanding of Gravity- that is what I mean as old science. the thing is people believed it, just like some people believe man came from monkeys...(new science and there is no proof)
Old science-Babylon and building there foolish tower to heaven.
New Science- Modern Babylon building a tower to heaven through science technology and rockets.

I know science works on theories, that is all fine. It is just not for me to get all excited over the perhaps, maybe or maybe nots, but that does not mean I don't have an interest in some of it. When they go as far to say the earth is over 4.5 billion years old, I fail to see the point in that. Even if one can prove it is that old to the exact day, man cannot comprehend it.

Most of this stuff is not really even an issue for me. I want to enjoy the 70 or so years I have on earth and I see all the theories as just kind of there hanging in the balance. On the other hand I am glad that some find a deep interest in it and can dedicate there lives to it.

I think I am speaking of the Julian or Gregorian calendar. 365 days and every four years we add a day. Correct? at least that has been working out for me so far.:)
Is not all this within the last 2000 years?
I am not very good with math and conversions, but I do have an interest in the Jewish Calendar- Is that what they call Gods Calendar? 360 days a year?
I am not sure when the Maya calendar and all the others were established.


as for science and the bible, I do see the bible is being tested with science and by it. and some of them are in it to prove the God of Creation does not exist. -NOT just 'A god', but the God of creation in the bible.
There is a difference there.
By PROVE, I mean to influence and persuade others.
I see the author of the bible as God himself written through man. I have no interest in those kinds of debates.

I can only speak for myself. My teachers in school did not force evolution on the students and I do not know if they are doing that today. But I do not recall the God of Creation ever being taught in school.
College is a different story, but not in High School.

Calendar Conversions
http://din-timelines.com/calendar_converter.shtml
 
Biologists such as Richard Dawkings are certainly given the reputation of trashing religion and spirituality, and denigrating people who subscribe to such groups of ideas.

But when expressing such ideas, Richard Dawkins does not speak for science - he speaks for himself.
 
Namaste Bandit,

thank you for the post.
Bandit said:
Hello Vajradhara,

Newtons' understanding of Gravity- that is what I mean as old science. the thing is people believed it,
however, Newtons' ToG, does not nessesitate that one accept it on belief, you can toss an apple in the air and observe the same effects. Facts and theories are different things. facts are the universes data and theories are structures of ideas to explain the observed facts.

as our ability to observe increased, we discovered that Newtons Gravity Model was accurate only for large structures in the universe, molecules, you, me, planets and stars.

my point here is that belief in these observations is not required. one can observe them for oneself.

just like some people believe man came from monkeys...(new science and there is no proof)
fortunately, evolution doesn't make the claim that humans came from monkeys, so they would be right to without their assent to this idea until evidence was presented. however, humans and monkeys do have a common ancestor, which is what evolution posits, and for which we have evidence.

I know science works on theories, that is all fine. It is just not for me to get all excited over the perhaps, maybe or maybe nots, but that does not mean I don't have an interest in some of it.
by contrast, i'm pretty excited about theories... especially ones like Germ Theory, which states that it is really microscopic organisms that cause our illnesses, not possession by demons or "humors" or what have you.

When they go as far to say the earth is over 4.5 billion years old, I fail to see the point in that. Even if one can prove it is that old to the exact day, man cannot comprehend it.
why do you say that humanity cannot comprehend 4.5 billion years?

Most of this stuff is not really even an issue for me. I want to enjoy the 70 or so years I have on earth and I see all the theories as just kind of there hanging in the balance. On the other hand I am glad that some find a deep interest in it and can dedicate there lives to it.
especially those folks that are working to cure diseases and illnesses, yes?

I think I am speaking of the Julian or Gregorian calendar. 365 days and every four years we add a day. Correct? at least that has been working out for me so far.
'natch.

here's some info on the Julian and Gregorian calendars:

When Julius Caesar became pontifex maximus, the Roman calendar had been so much abused that January was falling in autumn. At this point the methods of the Egyptian calendar were borrowed for the Roman. Julius Caesar, on the advice of the astronomer Sosigenes, added 90 days to the year 46 B.C. (67 days between November and December, 23 at the end of February). This caused the spring of 45 B.C. to begin in March. To retain this position of the seasons, he changed the length of most of the months: March, May, Quintilis (later named July after Julius Caesar), and October he left as they were; he added 2 days each to January and Sextilis (later named August to honor the Emperor Augustus); February was 28 days long except that in every fourth year a day was inserted between the 23d and the 24th of the month.
In Roman computation three days in the month were used for counting the date. These three were the Kalends (1st day of the month), the Nones (the 7th day in March, May, July, and October, the 5th in the other months), and the Ides (the 15th day in March, May, July, and October, the 13th in the other months). The days were counted before, not after, the Kalends, Nones, and Ides. Thus, Jan. 10 was the fourth day before the Ides of January or the fourth day of the Ides of January, because the Romans counted inclusively. Jan. 25 was the eighth of the Kalends of February, Feb. 3 was the third of the Nones of February. Feb. 23 was the seventh of the Kalends of March and remained so when an intercalary day was inserted every fourth year between it and Feb. 24; hence in a leap year there were two days counted as the sixth of the Kalends of March. The leap year was therefore called bissextile [Lat.,=sixth twice]. There is a legend that alterations in the length of the months were made later by Augustus to flatter his own vanity, but there seems to be no foundation for this story.

The Gregorian Calendar

The Julian year is 365 days 6 hr, hence a little too long. Therefore, by the 16th cent. the accumulation of surplus time had displaced the vernal equinox to Mar. 11 from Mar. 21, the date set in the 4th cent. In 1582 Pope Gregory XIII rectified this error. He suppressed 10 days in the year 1582 and ordained that thereafter the years ending in hundreds should not be leap years unless they were divisible by 400. The year 1600 was a leap year under both systems, but 1700, 1800, and 1900 were leap years only in the unreformed calendar. The reform was accepted, immediately in most Roman Catholic countries, more gradually in Protestant countries, and in the Eastern Church the Julian calendar was retained into the 20th cent. The present generally accepted calendar is therefore called Gregorian, though it is only a slight modification of the Julian.

The reform was not accepted in England and the British colonies in America until 1752. By that date the English calendar was 11 days different from that of continental Europe. For the intervening period before the reform was introduced into the English calendar, the Gregorian style is called the New Style (N.S.), and the Julian the Old Style (O.S.). New Style years begin Jan. 1, but Old Style years began usually Mar. 25. Thus Washington's birthday, which is Feb. 22, 1732 (N.S.), was Feb. 11, 1731 (O.S.). To avoid confusion sometimes both styles are given; thus 11 Feb. 1731/22 Feb. 1732.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/society/A0857113.html

I am not very good with math and conversions, but I do have an interest in the Jewish Calendar- Is that what they call Gods Calendar? 360 days a year?
I am not sure when the Maya calendar and all the others were established.
you can read about the Jewish calendar here:

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/society/A0857115.html
 
Kindest Regards Vaj, and all!

Thank you for the post about calendars!

I learned a little about the Gregorian calendar, and Christopher Clavius who actually did the computations.

I wasn't aware of the details surrounding the Julian calendar.

As for the Aztec (or was it Mayan?) calendar, I don't know that they have any conclusive thought on when exactly it was developed, but it is said that it is very accurate.

It is intriguing to me that early civilizations were so preoccupied with astronomy and calendars. Perhaps they had little better to do? The Babylonians are also said to have a very accurate calendar, dating from very early in historic time. The Celts however, got around the leap year problem by having a series of days "out of time" at the end of the year, usually 5 or 6, or so I am told, as each month to them had only 30 days.

My two cents, FWIW. :)
 
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