Plotinus

[FrankSophia]

How many are familiar with him?

For me his most important teaching is henosis and wikipedia provides a reasonable overview that will be familiar to seasoned seekers...

Hen means one, and osis suggests transformation resulting in a loose translation of "to make one"...

I would argue that this has been the greatest influence on all that is good in both Christianity and Islam, and thus provides a great foundation for mutual dialog...

It is also the foundation for most of what is called Western esotericism...

For me he and Gorakhnath compete for the greatest names in the spiritual history of this planet too few are aware of...

Of course Gorakhnath unites the Hindu and Buddhist traditions and is the originator of what is called Tantra or Kundalini...

Still it is the #1 and 2 religions vs the #3, 4, and 5 religions (he is important to Sikhism too)

Both are amazing pointers at this oneness.

 

[FrankSophia]

For any confused how they relate, the demiurge or yidam/ishtadevata personality is taken on as our ideal until we realize that which transcends the distinction...

The uncontemplation of one is the samadhi of the other...

They go together as great unifiers but are ignored because we favor divisions.

 

[Cino]

For any confused how they relate, the demiurge or yidam/ishtadevata personality is taken on as our ideal until we realize that which transcends the distinction...

The uncontemplation of one is the samadhi of the other...

They go together as great unifiers but are ignored because we favor divisions.

Interesting! I have no familiarity with Plotinus to speak of.

Some random thoughts (not arguments, just thoughts that occurred to me, my opinions):

* "After the ecstasy, the laundry". (Great book by that title)

* The distinctions and divisions are essential to our survival. They allow for choice and ethical decisions.

* It is tempting to want to look into the light forever, to marvel at how it illuminates everything to such a degree as to delete all distinctions and unify all things by its relentless brilliance. But if we are to live our own lives rather than be spoon-fed by benevolent devotees, we need to turn away, and see by the softer light which allows for such attitudes as compassion.

Since you mention tantra: (tantric) imagery of Krishna swallowing the universe, or Kali's epithet "of the cremation ground" (or indeed her iconography of the gaping mouth) points one step beyond the One, rather, at the void. Does Plotinus engage with this?

 

[FrankSophia]

"After the ecstasy, the laundry". (Great book by that title)

Why can't the ecstasy come with us into the laundry room?

The distinctions and divisions are essential to our survival. They allow for choice and ethical decisions.

Clinging to false distinctions benefits no one, and upholding our favorite box is not conducive to freedom.

It is tempting to want to look into the light forever, to marvel at how it illuminates everything to such a degree as to delete all distinctions and unify all things by its relentless brilliance. But if we are to live our own lives rather than be spoon-fed by benevolent devotees, we need to turn away, and see by the softer light which allows for such attitudes as compassion.

You are presenting a false dichotomy... we can bring the light into mundane activity so there is no need to choose.

Yet, by the Spirit most of worldly endeavor will fall away as foolish.

Since you mention tantra: (tantric) imagery of Krishna swallowing the universe, or Kali's epithet "of the cremation ground" (or indeed her iconography of the gaping mouth) points one step beyond the One, rather, at the void. Does Plotinus engage with this?

Yes as obviously the experience of oneness is still actually part of duality, in true non-duality there is no space for experience.

This is just the realization of Monad.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is just the realization of Monad.

Monad .. demiurge .. every time I come into contact with these words,
I find people who despise Jehovah. They seem to find satan more appealing.

 

[FrankSophia]

Monad .. demiurge .. every time I come into contact with these words,
I find people who despise Jehovah. They seem to find satan more appealing.

This isn't Demiurge in the Gnostic sense, it is just the form of God.

Monad here is the same as Pythagoras' notion where from this dyad arises, then number, etc.

This has given rise to a whole school of ethics, but your bias won't let you be honest about that.

The reality is this results in far higher ethical standards than merely obeying a book.

 

[FrankSophia]

The goal of collective well being allows us to decide ethical values in an intelligent way...

Obedience leads us to killing rape victims and cutting off little girls clits...

There is no comparison.

 

[Cino]

You are presenting a false dichotomy... we can bring the light into mundane activity so there is no need to choose.

Yet, by the Spirit most of worldly endeavor will fall away as foolish.

How would you go about bringing the light into the mundane? I mean, practically? In that light, nothing is mundane.

Why can't the ecstasy come with us into the laundry room?

All good things come to an end, even the ecstasy. But the laundry is always there.

 

[FrankSophia]

How would you go about bringing the light into the mundane? I mean, practically? In that light, nothing is mundane.

As it deepens it stops going away... everything is mundane and that's beautiful.

We have this need for something spectacular, but truly the gift of religion is to accept life without need to change anything.

All good things come to an end, even the ecstasy. But the laundry is always there.

I mean, even the universe is going to cease let alone the laundry.

Truth never ceases, it cannot.

All that appears must necessarily comply with it.

 

[Cino]

As it deepens it stops going away... everything is mundane and that's beautiful.

We have this need for something spectacular, but truly the gift of religion is to accept life without need to change anything.

Ah. That would be the softer light, the one which allows for discernment.

Unless by "not change anything" you also mean, for example, hunger. Then we're back to spoon-feeding the person whose gaze is fixed on the light.

I mean, even the universe is going to cease let alone the laundry.

Truth never ceases, it cannot.

All that appears must necessarily comply with it.

Complying with the truth amounts to a lot of metaphorical laundry. Like the truth, it never ceases.

In my opinion and experience.

 

[FrankSophia]

Ah. That would be the softer light, the one which allows for discernment.

Unless by "not change anything" you also mean, for example, hunger. Then we're back to spoon-feeding the person whose gaze is fixed on the light.

I don't think you've spent enough time acknowledging that your survival is not necessary, and ultimately will prove impossible.

You want to champion wasting our time over engaging the purpose of life, this goes back to our original clash.

Complying with the truth amounts to a lot of metaphorical laundry. Like the truth, it never ceases.

In my opinion and experience.

Truth is oneness beyond even the experience thereof, applying this to relative events is intuitive and simple.

Explaining it to those who don't understand is problematic but if you're living what is intended in the scriptures you're just describing your normal experience of life so again it is not complicated.

 

[Cino]

I don't think you've spent enough time acknowledging that your survival is not necessary, and ultimately will prove impossible.

Thank you for your candid words. How are you doing with your own practice of Memento Mori? More laundry...

In that vein, I'll quote from Kakuzo Okakura's "Book of Tea":

"Meanwhile, let us have a sip of tea. The afternoon glow is brightening the bamboos, the fountains are bubbling with delight, the soughing of the pines is heard in our kettle. Let us dream of evanescence and linger in the beautiful foolishness of things."

Explaining it to those who don't understand is problematic but if you're living what is intended in the scriptures you're just describing your normal experience of life so again it is not complicated.

That is a comforting thought.

More tea?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The goal of collective well being allows us to decide ethical values in an intelligent way...

Obedience leads us to killing rape victims..

Capital punishment works.
If people think that they should be able to get away with rape,
it is more likely to happen.

It is precisely for this reason, that it is of benefit to the collective well-being
of society.

 

[Cino]

Capital punishment works.
If people think that they should be able to get away with rape,
it is more likely to happen.

I think I read that the statistics are not supporting this. Capital punishment may lead to more covering-up of rape, more pressure on the victims to keep silent.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Capital punishment may lead to more covering-up of rape, more pressure on the victims to keep silent.

Can you give us an example?
Are you referring to a woman who is attacked in the park?
Why would she remain silent?

 

[FrankSophia]

Capital punishment works.
If people think that they should be able to get away with rape,
it is more likely to happen.

It is precisely for this reason, that it is of benefit to the collective well-being
of society.

I didn't say killing rapists, I said killing rape victims...

This is common in the Muslim world.

 

[FrankSophia]

Feel free to try to explain how such "honor killings" benefit the collective well being in any way.

 

[FrankSophia]

How are you doing with your own practice of Memento Mori?

Death is always as present as life, avoiding it causes wrong perspectives.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is common in the Muslim world.

No, it isn't..
The Western media look for such controversial cases in order to criticise.

Why would righteous people want to kill innocent victims of rape?
Makes no sense. It could be their wives or daughters.

 

[FrankSophia]

The Western media look for such controversial cases in order to criticise.

There are always some that spin it this way, but many more are proud of the zealousness they uphold the law with.

Why would righteous people want to kill innocent victims of rape?
Makes no sense. It could be their wives or daughters.

That's just it, the law doesn't create righteous people... it creates callousness and enmity.