Persecuted Religions

Thinking required said:
So when you read the Bible and Jesus says: "I am the way, the life, and the Truth no one comes to the Father except through me" What did you glean from that statement by a prophet?
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With the impression that John, with good intentions, is sometimes mixing his thoughts into the speeches of Jesus, I consider what is meant.

Who is "I" in the sentence? John says, Jesus "is" the Word (Logos). He "Is" the Logos, because he didn't only preach but also live according to it. He thereby incorporates the Logos.

This Logos is good guidance, showing the way to go. The "life" is the life with God. If we follow the Logos and go our way with God, we will be able to continue the life with the Father, God, in Jannah.
 
Thinking required said:
So when you read the Bible and Jesus says: "I am the way, the life, and the Truth no one comes to the Father except through me" What did you glean from that statement by a prophet?
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It has to be taken in context..
Who was he speaking to at the time .. and when was he saying it?

It does not mean that his ancestors could not have "come to the Father", just because they had never heard of him,
for example.
 
muhammad_isa said:
It does not mean that his ancestors could not have "come to the Father", just because they had never heard of him,
for example.
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You are somewhat correct, His ancestors came to God by Faith, knowing that Jesus would come. Remember, "the seed of Abraham", that is Jesus.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
Sorry, you complain that you don't enter into discussion here. Do you think anyone likes to discuss on that level?
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Just making an accurate statement here. What is there to discuss, everyone has their beliefs and no one is going to buy into the others opinions.
 
muhammad_isa said:
It has to be taken in context..
Who was he speaking to at the time .. and when was he saying it?
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"context", it's there. I would post the context from the passage but I will get yelled at for posting Scripture. Read the context, it's in John 14. Chapters 14,15,16 and 17 should set you right.
 
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Thinking required said:
Just making an accurate statement here.
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"accurate", well, taking an accurate look into the round:

We're none of us 5 years olds here. We're adults, many with considerable life experience and wisdom.

What is accurate on a 5 year old's level of reading comprehension is a bit overgeneralized to a 50 years old one's.

So while a small child will accurately answer "Jesus" to the question "who is speaking in this quote that begins with 'I am...' ", an adult with some decades of introspection will pick up on the conundrum of "What am I".

Or, to put it another way, the 5y old child would accurately spot how Jesus claimed to be all kinds of mutually exclusive things, on that kind of reading comprehension level. He can't be a man and a plant and a road all at the same time. That is an accurate statement, too, within the bounds of such a very literal reading of the text.

If someone were to suggest to the 5y old how it is more interesting and productive to read Jesus' statements metaphorically, the child might get upset, feeling their grasp on the truth of the words questioned. Children need a measure of certainty, a baseline level of dependable circumstances. So it may be better not to get them to question the foundations of their existence by exploring things like "what am I", or the many levels of meaning which metaphor opens.

And that's why I'm glad my young one is grown up now, and also why I enjoy discussing things with other grown-ups, who are able to deal with ambiguity, metaphor, nuance, paradox etc. without being freaked out by it.

What is there to discuss, everyone has their beliefs and no one is going to buy into the others opinions.
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Who was it that said, "opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one"?

While I enjoy seeing a nice belly button as much as the next person, what really delights me is the sense of wonder I get from perspectives I have not considered before.

It's a bit like appreciating music or a movie - I can let it affect me without becoming a musician or actor myself.

We can appreciate each other's views without adopting them.
 
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Cino said:
So while a small child will accurately answer "Jesus" to the question "who is speaking in this quote that begins with 'I am...' ", an adult with some decades of introspection will pick up on the conundrum of "What am I".
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I never thought Jesus was referring to himself. He is referring to Yahweh "I AM" "Before Abraham was, YHWH was"
 
The Christ was talking about Himself, imo
The Jews thought so. It's why they picked up stones?

"Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by"
(John 8:54-59)

Read full chapter
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 8&version=KJV
 
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Thinking required said:
Why do Matthew and Luke quote Mark verbatim?
The stories are not "verbatim", are are differences.
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There are stylistic and other similarities which strongly suggest one scribe was using the other as a reference. So strong that common sense says someone was copying someone – Matthew copies Mark word for word, including (putting comments in parenthesis) some 66 times.

Common sense actually says it looks most likely that Matthew and Luke copied Mark, and added their own materials.

There's a good example of the details here

And on Marcan priority here.
 
Thinking required said:
"context", it's there..
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I know it is..
Would you agree with me, that those people in his time who did not accept Jesus as Messiah, were not rightly guided?
Isn't that the context? Isn't that what he was saying?

It seems quite straightforward to me..
..but "literalists" read it as "only Christians believing Jesus is God, can enter the Kingdom of God", which
is not the same at all.
 
Cino said:
We're none of us 5 years olds here. We're adults, many with considerable life experience and wisdom.
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Yes, I get your point. I was just being the sarcastic me in that reply. The statement by Jesus was in context and reads plainly. It was not directed to anyone but the poster. My 5 year old grand daughter reads, but comprehends little.
 
TheLightWithin said:
I never thought Jesus was referring to himself. He is referring to Yahweh "I AM" "Before Abraham was, YHWH was"
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Well, you might want to rethink this. Since Jesus, the Word, from the beginning. Certainly clear to me as to what He was saying.

The context helps, "you not 50 years old and you have seen Abraham" The passage is about Jesus.
 
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Thomas said:
There are stylistic and other similarities which strongly suggest one scribe was using the other as a reference. So strong that common sense says someone was copying someone –
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If four of use on this forum go to a play and then write about what we saw, how similar do you think the stories would be.
 
Thomas said:
Matthew copies Mark word for word, including (putting comments in parenthesis) some 66 times.
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Interesting, you need to check your sources. Matthew puts into quotes, Mark, Luke, the OT, what the Angel of the Lord said and what Jesus said. Yes some 90% of Mark is found in Matthew, but is all of that directly quoted. Some of Jesus' says are not "word for word". look at the parable of the Sower in both texts. Both Mark and Matthew have quotes. Matthew should have double quoted Mark if he copied from Mark since Mark's story was already a quote from Jesus. I am sure you would like it to be less complicated. It's all speculation from many different sources. The point is really who the Gospels were written for and to. They all contain a different purpose. And poor Matthew must not have had a mind of his own, but wait, Matthew contains so much more than the book of Mark.
 
Thinking required said:
That really depends on the "view". (when it comes to appreciating them) Many views do great harm, you should know that.
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But I won't start burning down clinics or shooting medics by listening to Christians' views about abortion, to pick a random example.

Ideologies need actors. "Views don't kill, people do", as it were.
 
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