Mysticism – a Christian response to a Baha'i statement

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Born again into Muhammad (pbuh)? How do you make that one fly, Tony?

We need to be born again, everytime God sends a Messenger, born from the flesh and material understandings we have accumulated, into God's Word and Laws for the age we live.

So from the year 622, everyone did need to be born again into the Word of God given by Muhammad, recorded in the Quran.

As per Revelation, the new Message is the New Jerusalem, and the New Names need to be written upon our heart, but that can only be done unto those that receive that Name in the Station of Christ, they must be born again into that Spirit.

As you are aware ibalso offe that the year 1844 again offers that opportunity and then the year 1863.

Born again unto Zoraster, or Noah, or Adam, or Jeremiah or Buddha?

Where are you getting this stuff from? Oh yes -- Baha'u'llah as the copycat Jesus...imo

Ditto

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

We need to be born again, everytime God sends a Messenger, born from the flesh and material understandings we have accumulated, into God's Word and Laws for the age we live.

So from the year 622, everyone did need to be born again into the Word of God given by Muhammad, recorded in the Quran.

As per Revelation, the new Message is the New Jerusalem, and the New Names need to be written upon our heart, but that can only be done unto those that receive that Name in the Station of Christ, they must be born again into that Spirit.

As you are aware ibalso offe that the year 1844 again offers that opportunity and then the year 1863.



Ditto

Regards Tony

Well now, the Baha'i have compiled a list of probably hundreds of 'messengers' and still counting and you say all the messengers are equal -- they are all Christs -- like Job was a Christ and Jonah was a Christ -- yet these messengers are supposed to come on average only every 1000 years or so?

 

[RJM]

Muhammad (pbuh) never claimed to be the Christ. But you manage to find a way through fabricated hadith to say that Muhammad indeed did make this claim?

 

[RJM]

I understand the difference between prophet (nabi) and messenger (rasulah) but it still doesn't work to make Muhammad (pbuh) or any other 'messenger' into the manifestation of the Christ -- except for Baha'u'llah of course even penning prayers unto his own exalted self

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Well now, the Baha'i have compiled a list of probably hundreds of 'messengers' and still counting and you say all the messengers are equal -- they are all Christs -- like Job was a Christ and Jonah was a Christ -- yet these messengers are supposed to come on average only every 1000 years or so?

No that is not what the Baha'i Faith has done RJM, there is no list of hundreds of Messengers. (A few individuals may have attempted some lists)

Yes all the Messengers are One, as the are all Christ (Annointed One), by God.

Yes the Dispensation, is a 'Day of God', and just as the days of light in this material world vary greatly, so does the 'Day of God, which is a thousand years.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

If it did not, there would be no need to be born again, from the flesh into the Spirit that is logical and reasonable.

But that's not what your doctrine offers.

I just did a check of 'Gleanings' – the phrase 'born again' is not mentioned once.

 

[Thomas]

Yes, God is Immanently present via the Messengers, via the Holy Spirit, the Messengers One and All are the Embodiment of the Holy Spirit.

No, you misconstrue your own doctrine.

According to your doctrine, God is immanently present to them, but not immanent to us.

 

[RJM]

In fact requiring permanent dependence upon the teacher or 'messenger', instead of the teacher showing the way to freedom for the follower in God alone -- as Jesus had to leave His disciples with the Holy Spirit, or paraclete.

Jesus did not leave a book or writings as a rule for 1000 years to come. The writings came later, from others. He left his disciples individually with the Eucharist and with the holy spirit as their inner guide, imo

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But that's not what your doctrine offers.

I just did a check of 'Gleanings' – the phrase 'born again' is not mentioned once.

It is 100% what is offered. Just one quote from Abdul'baha.

"Just as man has been physically born into this world, he may be reborn from the realm and matrix of nature, for the realm of nature is a condition of animalism, darkness and defect. In this second birth he attains the world of the Kingdom. There he witnesses and realizes that the world of nature is a world of gloom, whereas the Kingdom is a world of radiance; the world of nature is a world of defects, the Kingdom is a realm of perfection; the world of nature is a world without enlightenment, the Kingdom of spiritual humanity is a heaven of illumination. Great discoveries and revelations are now possible for him; he has attained the reality of perception; his circle of understanding is illimitably widened; he views the realities of creation, comprehends the divine bounties and unseals the mystery of phenomena. This is the station which Christ has interpreted as the second birth. He says that just as ye were physically born from the mother into this world, ye must be born again from the mother world of nature into the life of the divine Kingdom. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 332

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

No, you misconstrue your own doctrine.

According to your doctrine, God is immanently present to them, but not immanent to us.

When you say No, that is you imputing your current frame of references on to me Thomas.

As I offered before, we need to be born again into that Spirit, just as Jesus the Christ offered we could do, if we choose to.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

When you say No, that is you imputing your current frame of references on to me Thomas.

As I offered before, we need to be born again into that Spirit, just as Jesus the Christ offered we could do, if we choose to.

Regards Tony

God bless you @Tony Bristow-Stagg that God meets you in that way. God meets every humble soul just where they are, no matter what religion, imo

 

[Thomas]

It is 100% what is offered. Just one quote from Abdul'baha.

He's not Baha'u'llah is he? Nice deflection, but the point still stands.

I have to say, Tony, that I have argued consistently that the Baha'i 'frame of reference' excludes, at the level of we ordinary mortal folk, the possibility of the Immanence, which underpins all Mystical and Spiritual insight and understanding (mystical and spiritual being synonymous in that regard – and tokens a degree of knowing that is other than the sensible and the mental).

This quote speaks of the created order – the Handiwork of the Divine – as:
"... a condition of animalism, darkness and defect ... the world of nature is a world of gloom ... a world of defects ... a world without enlightenment ... " (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 332)

Jesus said: "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." Gospel of Thomas, Logion 77.

Beauty, or ugliness, is in the eyes of the beholder ...

+++

 

[Thomas]

When you say No, that is you imputing your current frame of references on to me Thomas.

Well that's simply nonsense.

My frame of references speak of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the soul. I'm looking for it in Baha'i doctrine, and can't find it.

You keep posting assertions, but no evidence, you post texts that do not address the points I've raised.

+++

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

He's not Baha'u'llah is he? Nice deflection, but the point still stands

There was no deflection Thomas, just another frame of reference that needs to be considered.

The Disciples were not Christ Thomas, yet it was their recollection and understanding of the given word that was recorded for future prosperity.

With Abdul'baha, there is a written Covernant. All that Abdul'baha said and put to pen under that Covernant is from Baha'u'llah. There is no one else who knew that Message better than Abdul'baha. ( Shoghi Effendi was also under that Covenant)

So for future reference, the Baha'i Scriptures include the Writings of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi. Our scriptures extend from pre 1844 right up to 1957.

There is no Baha'i that can give interpretation on any of those scriptures ( we are able to do so, but only state it as a personal opinion). The Universal House of Justice can give guidance, but they also are not able to interpret. We are able to use writings that give us interpretations as an official view.

That may also help you to understand what as a Baha'i we use quotes. As without a quote, all you hear is interpretation, and that could be in error.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

My frame of references speak of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the soul. I'm looking for it in Baha'i doctrine, and can't find it.

Maybe we need the definition of Indwell.

To be be permanently present in (someone's soul or mind); possess spiritually.

Both permannentlt and Possess Spiritually stands out to me

Have you met any Baha'i Thomas? I ask, because if you had, I would offer you would not say such a thing. That you are not able to find that in the teachings, could be you are not looking for it. I see that any person of Faith that offers Submission to our One God will be reflecting that Spirit from their Soul, albeit a follower of Krishna, or Zoroaster, or Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, the Bab or Baha'u'llah.

You choose to see it only in your frame of reference, I understand what you see and you see that as true faith, but I do not see it that way, I do not see the Spirit permantly embedded in the flesh, it is a spiritual reality.

I see I can only reflect that Spirit from my heart, to the extent I remove the dross of evil from my heart and that is only when I submit to Christ and the Laws, rise above my human condition. It is not always there, as this world is a distraction, we are subject to the laws of nature. I see with the Messengers, they are the perfect embodiment of that Spirit and they do not deviate from the Law, they are the Law.

You are just seeing it from different frames of references Thomas.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

There was no deflection Thomas, just another frame of reference that needs to be considered.

I have. I find yours considerably narrower than mine – and so far you've offered nothing to suggest otherwise
.

There is no Baha'i that can give interpretation on any of those scriptures ( we are able to do so, but only state it as a personal opinion). The Universal House of Justice can give guidance, but they also are not able to interpret. We are able to use writings that give us interpretations as an official view.

Again ... a narrowing of reference.

In the Abrahamic Traditions, theology is seen as the continual 'unpacking' of Revelation which is, in and of itself, limitless.

 

[Thomas]

Maybe we need the definition of Indwell.

OK.

My working definition is: The theology of the sanctifying grace of God that makes the just man a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

There's an explanation by way of response on the Matrix thread

That you are not able to find that in the teachings, could be you are not looking for it.

To be fair, I've searched ... and you've not offered anything.

I see that any person of Faith that offers Submission to our One God will be reflecting that Spirit from their Soul ...

Reflecting is not indwelling.

You choose to see it only in your frame of reference, I understand what you see and you see that as true faith, but I do not see it that way, I do not see the Spirit permantly embedded in the flesh, it is a spiritual reality.

I understand. It's not in your doctrine.

You are just seeing it from different frames of references Thomas.

Yes, I am.

OK, let's end it here. I am satisfied with what I understand to be the case, and it seems pointless and unfair of me to pursue this matter further.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I have. I find yours considerably narrower than mine – and so far you've offered nothing to suggest otherwise

That is why we will talk past each other Thomas, we need to get to the heart of the matter, in the Spirit that we have embraced.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

In the Abrahamic Traditions, theology is seen as the continual 'unpacking' of Revelation which is, in and of itself, limitless.

If it is limitless Thomas. Why has it been limited to flesh bodies?

I was luck to be a young child living on Penang Island in the 60's, it gave me the foundation to see God is Limitless, as God gave many diverse peoples a Messenger as well.

It then boils down to nature and nurture and our willingness to look for that limitless Spirit in all things. As for the Messengers, by their fruits you will know them.

That is a challenge for us all. It is our own perceptions in doctrine that can make bad fruit out of good fruits.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But that's not what your doctrine offers.

I just did a check of 'Gleanings' – the phrase 'born again' is not mentioned once.

It is explained in different terms of reference Thomas.

"...Without the presence of the Holy Spirit he is lifeless. Although physically and mentally alive, he is spiritually dead. Christ announced, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," meaning that man must be born again. As the babe is born into the light of this physical world, so must the physical and intellectual man be born into the light of the world of Divinity." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 288-289

There are many, many passages in the Baha'i Writings offering what it means to be born again.

I have not remained silent , God help us all!

Regards Tony