Muslim Reformers

['Amir Alzzalam]

You are insisting in a simplistic understanding of the Quran and a simplistic understanding of the reception of the Logos to keep saying that it is nonsense. Nobody understands what he doesn't want to understand.

No, it's quite simple just as I explained it. That's why there are Christian Apologetics and Muslim Hadiths so they can attempt to make sense of senseless scripture (aka Word of God).

 

[hafizfahad]

The movement by reform-minded Muslims that started around 2015 aimed to counter interpretations of Islam that promote violence, social injustice, and political extremism. They advocate for principles of peace, social justice, human rights, women's rights, and secular governance. This movement represents a crucial effort to reclaim the true essence of Islam and promote a more peaceful and just interpretation.

An Online Quran Teacher In Pakistan can play a significant role in this reform by providing authentic and peaceful interpretations of the Quran. Through proper education and understanding, we can counteract harmful ideologies and promote the true teachings of Islam that emphasize compassion, justice, and human dignity.

By teaching the Quran with a focus on its core values, Online Quran Teachers can help foster a generation that upholds these principles and contributes positively to society. The work of these reform-minded Muslims is vital, and support from knowledgeable educators can amplify their efforts.

 

[muhammad_isa]

By teaching the Quran with a focus on its core values, Online Quran Teachers can help foster a generation that upholds these principles and contributes positively to society..

I agree, but political events are good at destroying the peace in a society.
Social cohesion is very much an important factor .. and welfare of course.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

I think, the first thing to teach is essence of the final teachings of the greatest scholars: Faith is fulfilling the unity with God, and it starts with the love of God and all that belongs to Him (and all belongs to Him!). Once you have understood this, no major harm may come on you, although the way is not straight and easy.

 

[Nicholas Weeks]

Questions about Islam from moderate follower:

The Questions We Must Ask About Islam – The American Spectator | USA News and Politics

A Muslim reformer’s warning about Western timidity, Islamist extremism, and the defense of civilization.

spectator.org

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If they're not following the Quran, word for word, are they really Muslims?

@Nicholas Weeks @muhammad_isa @'Amir Alzzalam @talib-al-kalim @hafizahad

Just some honest questions. I'm not looking to argue. Just trying to fill in some gaps in information.

1. I thought anyone who says, "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet" was a Muslim?
A. If the above is true, wouldn't that make someone who proclaims the shahada but doesn't follow the whole quran a Muslim but a sinful Muslim?
B. If the shahada is NOT the boundary between Muslim and non-Muslim, how would I be able to tell who is a Muslim and who is not without asking them a million questions?

2. As with any other religious text, there are passages in the Quran that there is legitimate disagreement on interpretation. For example, is jihad an internal struggle or a literal war? If there is legitimate disagreement, how do you know if someone is following the whole Quran "word for word"?

3. There are issues on which the Quran gives mixed messages. For example, there are portions of the Quran where Christians and Jews are treated respectfully as People of the Book. But there are other places where i.e. they are called cursed, where Jews are called apes and swine or Muslims are directed to use violence to subdue and humble Christians and Jews and force them to pay the jizya. Here is my question: if a Muslim struggles with that lack of clarity and perhaps adopts one side while ignoring the other, are they considered a Muslim?

4. My last question regards the Muslim Reform movement. Muslim reformers generally do not reject the Qur’an as revelation. The more significant reform is usually in how they interpret it, especially by emphasizing historical context, rejecting later hadith and jurisprudential traditions when they conflict with modern principles, and arguing that some Qur’anic commands were context specific. How does this fit with "following the Quran word for word"?

 

[muhammad_isa]

1. I thought anyone who says, "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet" was a Muslim?

Mmm .. Allah being the Arabic for God, as in Christianity/Judaism.

If the shahada is NOT the boundary between Muslim and non-Muslim, how would I be able to tell who is a Muslim and who is not without asking them a million questions?

Fundamentally, a Muslim should acknowledge the 5 pillars..

2. As with any other religious text, there are passages in the Quran that there is legitimate disagreement on interpretation. For example, is jihad an internal struggle or a literal war? If there is legitimate disagreement, how do you know if someone is following the whole Quran "word for word"?

..the same as in Christian/Jew .. ask opinion of orthodox scholars.

3. There are issues on which the Quran gives mixed messages. For example, there are portions of the Quran where Christians and Jews are treated respectfully as People of the Book. But there are other places where i.e. they are called cursed, where Jews are called apes and swine or Muslims are directed to use violence to subdue and humble Christians and Jews and force them to pay the jizya. Here is my question: if a Muslim struggles with that lack of clarity and perhaps adopts one side while ignoring the other, are they considered a Muslim?

Why not? We are not all scholars.
God, the Most High, judges between us all on the day of judgement .. we all rely on God's Mercy.

4. My last question regards the Muslim Reform movement. Muslim reformers generally do not reject the Qur’an as revelation. The more significant reform is usually in how they interpret it, especially by emphasizing historical context, rejecting later hadith and jurisprudential traditions when they conflict with modern principles, and arguing that some Qur’anic commands were context specific. How does this fit with "following the Quran word for word"?

I'm OK with it .. up to a point.
..but deviating away from core orthodox beliefs is going too far for me.

I'm a great believer in community relations..
What "reform" does Islam need, exactly, in your view?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Mmm .. Allah being the Arabic for God, as in Christianity/Judaism.

Sure. But Christians and Jews don't say, "and Muhammad was his prophet."

Fundamentally, a Muslim should acknowledge the 5 pillars..

That seems sensible.

..the same as in Christian/Jew .. ask opinion of orthodox scholars.

I don't want to derail the thread--this is the Islam forum, not the Judaism forum. But I would point out that the Jewish paradigm doesn't fit that in the slightest.

Getting back to Islam. Who decides which scholars are "orthodox"?

Why not? We are not all scholars.
God, the Most High, judges between us all on the day of judgement .. we all rely on God's Mercy.


I'm OK with it .. up to a point.
..but deviating away from core orthodox beliefs is going too far for me.

You are once more making a reference to orthodox beliefs. Who or what gets to determine these orthodox beliefs? Please don't say "The Quran," because it is the very fact that the Quran can be interpreted differently that is the issue.

I'm a great believer in community relations..
What "reform" does Islam need, exactly, in your view?

Allow me to quote from their website.

"We are in a battle for the soul of Islam, and an Islamic renewal must defeat the ideology of Islamism, or politicized Islam, which seeks to create Islamic states, as well as an Islamic caliphate....We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. "

https://muslimreformmovement.org/

A. Peace: National Security, Counterterrorism, and Foreign Policy​

1. We stand for universal peace, love, and compassion. We reject violent jihad. We believe we must target the ideology of violent Islamist extremism, in order to liberate individuals from the scourge of oppression and terrorism both in
   Muslim majority societies and the West.
2. We stand for the protection of all people of all faiths and non-faith who seek freedom from dictatorships, theocracies and Islamist extremists.
3. We reject bigotry, oppression, and violence against all people based on any prejudice, including ethnicity, gender, language, belief, religion, sexual orientation and gender expression.

B. Human Rights: Women’s Rights and Minority Rights​

1. We stand for human rights and justice. We support equal rights and dignity for all people, including minorities. We support the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.
2. We reject tribalism, castes, monarchies, and patriarchies and consider all people equal with no birth rights other than human rights. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. Muslims don’t have an exclusive right to “heaven.”
3. We support equal rights for women, including equal rights to inheritance, witness, work, mobility, personal law, education, and employment. Men and women have equal rights in mosques, boards, leadership and all spheres of society. We reject sexism and misogyny.

C. Secular Governance: Freedom of Speech and Religion​

1. We are for secular governance, democracy an, liberty. We are against political movements in the name of religion. We separate mosque and state. We are loyal to the nations in which we live. We reject the idea of the Islamic state. There is no need for an Islamic caliphate. We oppose institutionalized sharia. Sharia is manmade.
2. We believe in life, joy, free speech and the beauty all around us. Every individual has the right to publicly express criticism of Islam. Ideas do not have rights. Human beings have rights. We reject blasphemy laws. They are a cover for the restriction of freedom of speech and religion. We affirm every individual’s right to participate equally in ijtihad, or critical thinking, and we seek a revival of ijtihad.
3. We believe in freedom of religion and the right of all people to express and practice their faith, or non-faith, without threat of intimidation, persecution, discrimination or violence. Apostasy is not a crime. Our ummah–our community–is not just Muslims, but all of humanity.

https://muslimreformmovement.org/first-page-posts/declaration/

 

[RJM]

@muhammad_isa
Good to hear from you

 

[muhammad_isa]

Who decides which scholars are "orthodox"?

I refer to mainstream..

"Sunni Islam: Represents roughly 85% to 90% of the global Muslim population. It follows the traditions (Sunnah) and the consensus of the early community, recognizing the first four caliphs as rightly guided"

Allow me to quote from their website.

"We are in a battle for the soul of Islam, and an Islamic renewal must defeat the ideology of Islamism, or politicized Islam, which seeks to create Islamic states, as well as an Islamic caliphate....We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. "

terrorism is often a result of oppression .. and not condoned in Islam.
..so called 'islamist' organisations are not all undemocratic or calling for overthrowing govts.

Islam is nothing without people/community.
If the majority are in favour of Islamic principles, then that would be reflected in those in
govt. .. but I see that many people are hypocrites .. they like democracy when it appears to
be in their favour .. what they like .. but if the majority vote for, say, a more conservative/religious
party, they seek to overthrow it.

..and vice-versa of course.
I don't really agree that Islam can be reformed into a secular religion .. makes no sense

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I refer to mainstream..

"Sunni Islam: Represents roughly 85% to 90% of the global Muslim population. It follows the traditions (Sunnah) and the consensus of the early community, recognizing the first four caliphs as rightly guided"

This is a very unreliable way to think. The truth of something is completely unrelated to its popularity. If you went back in time 1000 years, what percent of the population believed the earth was flat?

And btw, that remark is not meant to undermine Islam in any way. I find people in every religion, philosophy, and ideology (including mine) who make this mistake.

If the only thing you were using popularity for was to identify the mainstream, aka the top of the bell shaped curve, that would be just fine. But what you are implying is that the mainstream is right simply because it is the mainstream. That doesn't work.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is a very unreliable way to think. The truth of something is completely unrelated to its popularity..

I'm not referring to popularity..
One has to look at the history as well.
eg. the mainstream/orthodox is not beliefs that did not exist 1500 years ago

But what you are implying is that the mainstream is right simply because it is the mainstream. That doesn't work.

The first major split in Islam, was sunni-shia. I see the division as mostly political.
i.e. fighting each other over who should be in charge (govt.)

..much like royalty vs democracy .. shia emphasise lineage of Muhammad (peace be with him)
over ability or consensus.

I do not see division, and the emergence of new sects/beliefs as a good thing .. although it is
bound to happen due to human nature.

"We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. "

I think education is the key here .. a broad education, which leads to a more balanced government,
whatever religion the people who make up the govt. belong to.
Oppressing others is no good, whoever is doing it.

Some nations have less access to a broad education due to poverty or cultural customs.
There is a major difference between Afghanistan and Saudi, for example .. but both countries
are majority sunni Muslim countries.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not referring to popularity..
One has to look at the history as well.
eg. the mainstream/orthodox is not beliefs that did not exist 1500 years ago


The first major split in Islam, was sunni-shia. I see the division as mostly political.
i.e. fighting each other over who should be in charge (govt.)

..much like royalty vs democracy .. shia emphasise lineage of Muhammad (peace be with him)
over ability or consensus.

I do not see division, and the emergence of new sects/beliefs as a good thing .. although it is
bound to happen due to human nature.

"We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. "

I think education is the key here .. a broad education, which leads to a more balanced government,
whatever religion the people who make up the govt. belong to.
Oppressing others is no good, whoever is doing it.

Some nations have less access to a broad education due to poverty or cultural customs.
There is a major difference between Afghanistan and Saudi, for example .. but both countries
are majority sunni Muslim countries.

Thank you for all your responses!