Common doctrine and a Baha'i-Christian dialogue

Thomas

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This follows from a discussion elsewhere, but as it is off-topic on that thread, I thought I might start a new one, and hope to keep the discussion on track.

The salient point was this:
As an example, to offer in all sincerity the Oneness of God and the Oneness of humanity both Islam and Christianity will have to let go of some doctrines.
Does that not rather imply the Baha'i view both Islam and Christianity as lacking sincerity? Again, which doctrines do you see as evidence of that?

Anything that prevents us embracing the One God in the Messengers of Muhammad and Jesus, to name but a couple.
That's a rather nebulous answer – I doubt any religious authority will agree to 'anything' when asked precisely what dogmas and doctrines they will be obliged to 'let go'.

The issue here is how Catholicism and Baha'i perceive 'oneness.'

Nostra Aetate is The Declaration on the relation of the (Catholic) Church to non-Christian Religions (Vatican II, 1965)

1.1 – In our time, when day by day mankind is being drawn closer together, and the ties between different peoples are becoming stronger, the Church examines more closely her relationship to non-Christian religions. In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship.

In the Christian view, the whole creation is a theophany, and speaks of the One True God in all its multiplicity and diversity – as Nature teaches – as a good. It seems to me you want to do away with this diversity of religious expression, in favour of a particular 'oneness'.

One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth. One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all ... until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.
Here the Church speaks of oneness and community – a unity in diversity.

... Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths ... through searching philosophical inquiry ... through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way ... to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions ... each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all... in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.
My emphasis – the Catholic Church rejects nothing in those religions, whereas the Baha'i will require a 'letting go' of dogmas and doctrines, rites and liturgies.

Thus where thew Church recognises many "Ways", the Baha'i acknowledges only one.

+++

Looking more closely, it seems clear that Christianity will have to 'let go' its very foundational doctrines – of Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God; of the Holy Spirit and the Life in the Blessed Trinity ... furthermore it would seem to imply that Scripture and Tradition would have to be edited, redacted and reworked to fit the Baha'i model.

And the same applies to Islam and Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Anything that prevents us from embracing the Councels sent by God.
By which you mean the 'cousels of God' as delivered by your messengers take priority and stand as the authoritative measure of the counsels of every other religion?

Otherwise, the Unity, peace and security of all of humanity is not possible.
But I don't think this will be true 'unity', as unity implies diversity, and you seek to abolish diversity in thought and practice.

As the Baha'i have no clergy nor a liturgy, are we all obliged to 'let go' our clergies ands our liturgies? Our sacraments?

It seems to me your peace and security will be achieved only with the evisceration of religions, rendering them glove puppets promoting Baha'i doctrine?

+++

Our Scripture says:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Galatians 3:28, cf Colossians 3:11 and Romans 10:12)

Clearly, there are Jews and Greeks, men and women, but there is a Unity and a Oneness that transcends the World of Forms – it does not do away with them, as you seek to do – its love is greater.

In short, I think your 'oneness' is, metaphysically and philosophically, a categorical error (in the sense it confuses distinct categories of being and nature)
 
Our Scripture says:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Galatians 3:28, cf Colossians 3:11 and Romans 10:12)

Clearly, there are Jews and Greeks, men and women, but there is a Unity and a Oneness that transcends the World of Forms – it does not do away with them, as you seek to do – its love is greater..
Well, that's it .. both Christianity and Islam allow/encourage people from any tribe, any walk-of-life, to
join them in their faith. (I'm not excluding other faiths in this regard)

I think that the point that Tony makes, is that Christians and Jews need to build bridges,
and not walls/fences. :)

Unfortunately, people are often suspicious of others that are different to them.
Perhaps education is an answer..
 
Does that not rather imply the Baha'i view both Islam and Christianity as lacking sincerity? Again, which doctrines do you see as evidence of that?
It implication is based on historical observation using logic and reason that doctrines prevent us recognising God in subsequent Messages. There is no lack of sincerity that is applicable when a person offers this in peace and loving faith.

The result of reconsidering doctrines in a differnt light, is that both the the religions of Christianity and Islam can be seen to be from the same divine source as the Baha'i Faith. We can become One in God, the Names blend and become One. The "Glory of God" is embraced.

There is no insincerity in that noble goal.

Regards Tony
 
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My emphasis – the Catholic Church rejects nothing in those religions, whereas the Baha'i will require a 'letting go' of dogmas and doctrines, rites and liturgies.

Thus where thew Church recognises many "Ways", the Baha'i acknowledges only one.
The comments I make are supported by scripture.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

All the good we see in all Faiths is of God, this good is part of the narrow gate. This is exactly what is asked of all of us, at the same time we are told we must prove all things.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-28 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

So it can be considered that some doctrines have led to more evil than good.

I ask how many people have been killed as a result of doctrines being enforced as the only true way to consider faith in God?

Regards Tony
 
Our Scripture says:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Galatians 3:28, cf Colossians 3:11 and Romans 10:12)

Clearly, there are Jews and Greeks, men and women, but there is a Unity and a Oneness that transcends the World of Forms – it does not do away with them, as you seek to do – its love is greater.

In short, I think your 'oneness' is, metaphysically and philosophically, a categorical error (in the sense it confuses distinct categories of being and nature)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28, cf Colossians 3:11 and Romans 10:12)

The key here is that we are "One in Christ", which confirms what Peter said and confirms that the church was to be built upon the fact that Jesus is "Christ".

That Oneness transcends the veil of Names and embraces "Christ" the Spirit that contains all the "Names of God".

Matthew 16:13-17 "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

That is my chosen Church, it is founded on Christ (The Annointed One).

Regards Tony
 
I ask how many people have been killed as a result of doctrines being enforced as the only true way to consider faith in God?
How many more saved, by God, in spite of human evil? Are you going to use the evils perpetrated in the name of God? Do you not believe Baha'i doctrine will never be abused?

Baha'u'lah despised the Catholic Church
 
How many more saved, by God, in spite of human evil? Are you going to use the evils perpetrated in the name of God? Do you not believe Baha'i doctrine will never be abused?

Baha'u'lah despised the Catholic Church
I see all Faiths have a spring, summer, autumn and winter, the Baha'i Faith is not exempt from the cycles God has set for this reality, all faiths inclusive.

In the context of these cycles, the Baha'i Faith was born in the deep winter of Islam, and the spring of a new cycle of the Baha'i era, has just begun, the summer yet to be experienced, the winter not yet triggered.

We are all part of this spring to the extent we follow the Counsels God has given us. All Faiths that have gone through their cycles still contain the teachings that have triggered the Springtime.

What is being discussed is removing the doctrines that brought about the winter.

Regards Tony
 
  • Haha
Reactions: RJM
Baha'u'lah despised the Catholic Church
Just so you know. As a Baha'i I have embraced that the Catholic Church is the legitimate representative of Jesus the Christ.

This advice is how I see this issue.

"A Catholic background is an excellent introduction to the Faith, and one that Mrs. ... should feel gratified for having had. Though doctrines of the church today are no longer needed -- as the Father Himself has come, and thus fulfilled the mission of Christ the Son yet the foundation they lay of spiritual discipline, and their emphasis on spiritual values and adherence to moral laws, is very important and very close to our own beliefs." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to two believers, August 17, 1941; Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491)

Regards Tony
 
LOL -- in your own opinion
It transcends my and any persons opinion.

Jesus the Christ transcends our acceptance of His God given Station. That Station needs none of us to embrace the Christ. It is but a pure bounty that we can choose to embrace, 100% God given Bounty, Grace and Mercy.

Regards Tony
 
I see all Faiths have a spring, summer, autumn and winter, the Baha'i Faith is not exempt from the cycles God has set for this reality, all faiths inclusive.

In the context of these cycles, the Baha'i Faith was born in the deep winter of Islam, and the spring of a new cycle of the Baha'i era, has just begun, the summer yet to be experienced, the winter not yet triggered.

We are all part of this spring to the extent we follow the Counsels God has given us. All Faiths that have gone through their cycles still contain the teachings that have triggered the Springtime.

What is being discussed is removing the doctrines that brought about the winter.

Regards Tony
@RJM God loves laughter.

Regards Tony
 
Oh God, deliver me
 
Jesus the Christ transcends our acceptance of His God given Station.
Baha'u'llah the Christ, you mean?
That Station needs none of us to embrace the Christ. It is but a pure bounty that we can choose to embrace, 100% God given Bounty, Grace and Mercy.
Baha'u'llah as Christ the Father, you mean?

I wish you could be honest @Tony Bristow-Stagg
The whole object is to replace Jesus with Baha'u'llah
The object is to turn away from Jesus, unto Baha'u'llah
It's just junk ...

Why should I care?
I don't ...
 
The complete writings of Baha'u'llah and his family aren't worth one word from Jesus, imo

Go on guys ... it's your website ...
 
I wish you could be honest @Tony Bristow-Stagg
That is the heritage promised, the bounty of Isaiah, a heritage to those that embrace the One and only Lord.

Isaiah 54:17 "No weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication from me, declares the Lord.”

Regards Tony
 
That is the heritage promised, the bounty of Isaiah, a heritage to those that embrace the One and only Lord.

Isaiah 54:17 "No weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication from me, declares the Lord.”
Isiaah's suffering servant.

However the Christ is predicted to return at the end of days no longer as the suffering servant but in glorious majesty surrounded by the hosts of Heaven and announced by trumpet blasts in final judgment.

Baha'u'llah can't be both.

Of course you will always manage to find a way to manipulate scripture out-of-context to make it say what you want it to
 
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I see all Faiths have a spring, summer, autumn and winter, the Baha'i Faith is not exempt from the cycles God has set for this reality, all faiths inclusive.
However according to you, and also to Islam, Christianity started to become corrupted almost from the start -- with doctrines of Trinity and monasticism, the Eucharist and so on.

In spite of all the soothing words, there's no doubt that below the surface the Baha'i faith is set against Christianity as it stands -- and particularly against the Catholic Church.

Of course anyone is entitled to believe whatever they choose. The problem is trying to use Christian scripture to justify those beliefs -- especially by those whose actual knowledge of those scriptures is extremely thin, acquired second-hand, and restricted to out-of-context quote mining -- aimed at others who don't know the scriptures beyond a surface association, in an attempt to hoodwink them and convert them.

Where a person reserves the right to proselytize, another has the right to counter falsehood, to prevent others being hoodwinked?
 
Sorry for being so intense.

Having said my bit, I want to retire from IO again for a while ...
 
It implication is based on historical observation using logic and reason that doctrines prevent us recognising God in subsequent Messages.
You'll have to be more precise with regard to both the doctrines in question – please name them – and the logic and reason behind the requirement they be 'let go'.
 
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